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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates
    #28658428 - 02/13/24 01:05 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

I want better growth on my agar plates.

I’ve been exclusively using LMEA plates and the growth is wispy. I recently started an experiment adding different amounts of yeast to my plate solution .2% yeast is performing best.

I have heard that LMEA is better for long-term storage, while PDA is better for aggressive colonization. So I’d like to give PD (with and without yeast) a try, but also would like to continue with my attempts to achieve crystal clear plates, for which the P&D needs to complete disolve.

I have found a lot of recipes that utilize fresh potatoes boiled down and then filtered, but that sounds very inconsistent so would prefer to use a powdered extract of potato.

Is instant potato flake or potato starch better, when clarity of high concern?

Can someone link me a recipe for ultra clear pda plates? How likely are they to come out at the clarity of my LMEA plates? Is it necessary to add yeast?


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ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

Edited by MushroomMommy (02/14/24 04:13 AM)

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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: MushroomMommy]
    #28658484 - 02/13/24 02:00 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

i had much better agar when i actually boiled and filtered the potatoes for the pda.  I never could get potato starch and dextrose to work perfect. I have not tried the flakes, but i would go with flakes over potato starch if i couldn't boil my own. 

Corn meal agar works very very well; i replace the potato starch with cornmeal and add dextrose; but it's not a clear agar.

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: trippleblack]
    #28658537 - 02/13/24 02:45 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

1.Put some instant potato flakes in, not too much.

2. Boil the fuck out of it.

I think when I was still taking actual measurements, it was something like a 1/2 teaspoon per cup of water, plus the agar of course.


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Beware of advice- even this.

Edited by B Traven (02/13/24 02:48 PM)

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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: B Traven]
    #28658565 - 02/13/24 03:10 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

@B Travens: do the flakes dissolve or do they need to be strained? If they’re being strained it sounds like the same method as using fresh potato


--------------------
ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: trippleblack]
    #28658569 - 02/13/24 03:12 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

trippleblack said:
i had much better agar when i actually boiled and filtered the potatoes for the pda.  I never could get potato starch and dextrose to work perfect. I have not tried the flakes, but i would go with flakes over potato starch if i couldn't boil my own. 

Corn meal agar works very very well; i replace the potato starch with cornmeal and add dextrose; but it's not a clear agar.




I’ve also considered just using sorghum syrup as that incorporates grain and a sugar. Do you have any experience with it?


--------------------
ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: MushroomMommy]
    #28658572 - 02/13/24 03:17 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

no experience with sorghum syrup..

if you are having issues with malt extract then something else is off, not your agar media.  yeast is not needed.  malt extract is generally used somewhere between 2 - 4%.

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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: trippleblack]
    #28658587 - 02/13/24 03:30 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

trippleblack said:
no experience with sorghum syrup..

if you are having issues with malt extract then something else is off, not your agar media.  yeast is not needed.  malt extract is generally used somewhere between 2 - 4%.




What is your definition of success?

I found my plates to be sluggish with high LME concentrations like 2-4%

Lower levels of LME nutrients offers more clarity and faster growth in my experience, however the growth I’m getting is on the wispy side regardless of what I use: clone, spores, LC, and their transfers.

I am looking for improved, more aggressive, more rhizomorphic growth while maintaining overall clarity.

Do you use LME or PD and if both, do you notice better growth on one over the other?


--------------------
ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

Edited by MushroomMommy (02/13/24 03:31 PM)

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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: MushroomMommy]
    #28658609 - 02/13/24 03:46 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

i use pda and lme equally. growth is too similar to have much of a preference.  pda is clear if i filter it properly and lme is translucent in clarity.    i can't speak to your poor growth. if you are having issues using the standard 2 - 4% lme, it has nothing to do with the agar media. recheck sterilization, clean room tek ect...

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: MushroomMommy]
    #28658813 - 02/13/24 07:03 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomMommy said:
@B Travens: do the flakes dissolve or do they need to be strained? If they’re being strained it sounds like the same method as using fresh potato




Nah, they dissolve completely if you boil them enough and it's a dilute enough solution. No straining needed.

Truth be told, I don't even use a spoon anymore. Just swish the saucepan around to mix the boiling ingredients, and then pour plates straight from it. So, yeah, that's how easy they are to just throw in and break down.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.

Edited by B Traven (02/13/24 07:05 PM)

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OfflineOldManRiver
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28659031 - 02/13/24 10:05 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

The paradox of agar is that, to get what we consider 'better' growth, you need to make the nutrient level of the agar lower rather than higher, so that the mycelia has to extend to find more nutrition.  I just today threw out a batch of plates I made with a grain water agar.  I was aiming for the equivalent of 20g of nutrient per liter, I tested the specific gravity of the water (1.007), added some karo (12g) to top it up.  The mycelia LOVE it, but they make little fluffy balls, and take forever to extend across the plate. 

Here are some examples.  Same strain, the plate dated 1-7 is the grain water agar, the 1-15 plate is Evviva MEA mix. 




Example of a fluffy ball. 

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: OldManRiver]
    #28659210 - 02/14/24 04:30 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

OldManRiver said:
The paradox of agar is that, to get what we consider 'better' growth, you need to make the nutrient level of the agar lower rather than higher, so that the mycelia has to extend to find more nutrition.  I just today threw out a batch of plates I made with a grain water agar.  I was aiming for the equivalent of 20g of nutrient per liter, I tested the specific gravity of the water (1.007), added some karo (12g) to top it up.  The mycelia LOVE it, but they make little fluffy balls, and take forever to extend across the plate. 

Here are some examples.  Same strain, the plate dated 1-7 is the grain water agar, the 1-15 plate is Evviva MEA mix. 




Example of a fluffy ball. 





Yeah, agar gives us the ability to play god and provide very specific growing conditions. Which makes it very easy to get the math wrong, and end up dropping our spores/mycelia into an all-you-can-eat buffet with table service. Nothing to do but sit there and get fat.

Extra nutrition can also unnecessarily encourage contaminant growth, making it harder to get and keep clean plates.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.

Edited by B Traven (02/14/24 04:31 AM)

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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: B Traven]
    #28659669 - 02/14/24 02:06 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Truth be told, I don't even use a spoon anymore. Just swish the saucepan around to mix the boiling ingredients, and then pour plates straight from it. So, yeah, that's how easy they are to just throw in and break down.




You’re a madman, hahaha and Ilysm. Show me those plate pics


--------------------
ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

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OfflineMushroomMommy
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Registered: 08/21/23
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Loc: La Luna
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
Re: Potato Starch vs Potato Flakes for PDA plates [Re: OldManRiver]
    #28659673 - 02/14/24 02:11 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

OldManRiver said: the 1-15 plate is Evviva MEA mix.




Evviva? Like evviva sciences?

ironically, I was looking at their plates and premixes yesterday. Regarding their malt extract agar plate mix I ran the math yesterday and can tell you their lme concentration is 1.395% and 2% agar.

If you’re interested in less, fuzzy growth, consider adding yeast. Check out this experiment I’m running with adding yeast


--------------------
ABCD stands for Always Be Collecting Data

“I don't know anything about anything, but I know enough about everything to know that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about”

Edited by MushroomMommy (02/14/24 02:18 PM)

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