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Offlinespasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28625443 - 01/18/24 12:05 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

taku said:
i've never timed myself making blocks, no. but 10 minutes per bag...i don't think it would be far off.  maybe ask someone who works at a larger scale than i.  since i'm so small, i still take time to smell the roses :wink:

one calculation i would also suggest reaffirming is the 100lbs from 40blocks.  i usually get 1lb from a 5lb block, so that would be 2lbs from a 10lb block.  so if that transfers to scale, that would be 50 bags.  again, i grow with 5lb blocks, so i hope someone else can weigh in on that.




You're probably right that 2lb from a 10lb block is more realistic, especially when I can't use masters mix but straw pellets / softwood pellets with wheat bran.

I watched a bunch of Southwest Mushrooms vids yesterday and it was really nice to actually to see the whole process and how they shake the bags etc. One thing they mentioned was that some people do "dry bagging" so they don't mix the sub ingredients before sterilizing. They said it works well but it's just a bit tougher to break down and shake in the inoculation. It might save some time, or not. Does anyone here do that?

Anyone else want to chime in on the time consumption of making blocks? Deadmandave, Stromrider, SHROOMSISAY01?

At this point the factors that I have doubts of are:
- time making the blocks
- inoculation success without a lab
(- yield without soy hulls, hwfp or sawdust available) This is in brackets because I'm sure I'd still double my current yields


EDIT: One more quickie - What's the usual spawn ratio with supplemented and sterilized subs? Search results showed from 1 to 5%, is there a "standard" value for this?

Edited by spasm666 (01/18/24 12:28 AM)

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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28625633 - 01/18/24 08:04 AM (3 months, 28 days ago)

40 blocks for 100lbs could be right. It's very strain dependent.

I do 17 blocks in my steamer at a time this is roughly how long it takes:

20 minutes to fill them with pellets
30 minutes to fill with water, fold, load into steamer
30 minutes to inoculate
20 minutes to shake

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Offlinespasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: deadmandave]
    #28625826 - 01/18/24 11:33 AM (3 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
40 blocks for 100lbs could be right. It's very strain dependent.

I do 17 blocks in my steamer at a time this is roughly how long it takes:

20 minutes to fill them with pellets
30 minutes to fill with water, fold, load into steamer
30 minutes to inoculate
20 minutes to shake




Perfect, thank you for the rundown. These are 10lb blocks? What is your steamer volume?
If I can achieve the same speed, time wouldn't be an issue at all. It'll be 5 hours for 50 blocks = 100lbs (safer to calculate 50 than 40 blocks) which is quite close to what I do now for 100lbs. This is good news.

It seems that you do the dry bagging method. Have you tried mixing before bagging and why did you choose this route? One thing I'm curious about this method: If you pour pellets, then water and fold right away, the bags won't have any room for the expansion of the pellets. How does this even work? When I hydrate pellets they double in size.

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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28625902 - 01/18/24 01:01 PM (3 months, 28 days ago)

10lb bags.
Steamer is a 55gal drum

Dry bagging is so easy. I don't see the advantage to premixing unless you have some very big machinery which can automate most of the process.

By the time you finish adding water to the last bag the first is ready to fold.

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Offlinespasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: deadmandave]
    #28625916 - 01/18/24 01:15 PM (3 months, 28 days ago)

Right on. Spreadsheets here I come again. Do you use hot or cold water? Don't know about others but straw pellets don't hydrate fully in less than hour in cold water.

Dry bagging would have the benefit of less space usage as there would be no need for any big totes to mix the sub in. This way I could maybe fit a tiny minilab in the room, just maybe.

Edited by spasm666 (01/18/24 01:23 PM)

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Offlinespasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28627106 - 01/19/24 11:43 AM (3 months, 27 days ago)

I've ran some numbers and the leap to sterilizing is still compelling. I think the best way would be to get a quite big sterilizer so only one or two runs would be enough. There's a few old milk tanks for sale for a few hundred euros a piece. They are all stainless steel and volumes range from 250 to 900 liters. I think those would make great atmospheric sterilizers. Autoclaves above 200 liters are too expensive. If I'd do dry bagging, I could fit a sterilizer like this in the room (they're unfortunately not very tall so the diameter is bigger).

I wouldn't really have room for a cleanroom though, that's the biggest worry I have about this. If I make the leap only to find out I can only make green bags - that would suck. Maybe I could set up a foldable little cleanroom, like make a frame for it, roll some plastic on it and only attach part of the roof with the hepa thing on it and when not in use just push it to the side. It would be so small it'd be a pita to work in it though. I'm not sure if a cleanroom would work like this, as it would be open to any airborne thing when it's folded away. But if I just open it, spray with iso, turn on the hepa before use. It's not supposed to be sealed anyway so it might be easy enough to set up every time.
Or just put the flowhood on my workbench and pull some plastic sheet to make a little shelter from the air currents.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28643822 - 02/02/24 10:46 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I quote from another thread, hope that's ok.

Quote:

deadmandave said:
Your technique seems pretty solid. I don't know what others do with 24" tall hoods, mine is only 12" tall so I keep my bags on their side and inoculate down near the table. My lab also has carpet, kids, cats and doubles as a bedroom where all kinds of nonsense takes place. I try to vacuum it sometimes.






If this is your lab where you inoculate your bags in, that gives me enormous hope boosts regarding of inoculating without a lab. I don't have carpet or any of that stuff in my operation place.. So I guess I'll be just fine with only a flowhood in the room. Which is just golden.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28647221 - 02/05/24 05:46 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

yeah a flowhood is a game-changer.  i used to do my work in the furnace room of my basement in a house from 1904 - not the cleanest environment but it worked really well.

that said, i have since moved and built a mushroom room at our new place where it will be cleaner. clean is obviously the goal.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28648840 - 02/06/24 11:12 AM (3 months, 9 days ago)

Cool.

Surely clean is the goal. Based on deadmandave's lab and a 1904's basement I think I'm good to go with only a flowhood. After all I keep my op place quite clean and tidy, have all workbenches made of SS etc, follow a cleaning routine, have a solid floor which I wipe with bleach regularly, etc. And the place is brand new, from late 2021. So now I'll just be deciding if I'll go for the 6k€ autoclave or a bubba style rig. The 20hour cycles seem super hard to fit to schedule unless I work on weekends which I'm not going to do.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28652306 - 02/08/24 10:15 PM (3 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

taku said:
I kept a separate tote for sterilized blocks I was storing. I wiped it clean and then just transferred the blocks straight from my PC to the tote to minimize exposure. I imaging you could rig up a rotor or cabinet that draws in clean air through a filter and keeps the space positive pressure if you were doing this enough and at a larger scale.





Did you always let the blocks cool down in the sterilizer before placing them in the tote? I've been planning on the schedule and I'd need to store sterilized blocks while they're still hot. So if I put them in the tote and close the lid I'd have everything wet because of condensation, right? But if I leave the lid a bit open I leave room for any nasties to enter during the day or two before inoculation time.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28652560 - 02/09/24 06:50 AM (3 months, 6 days ago)

yes, i usually would let my pc sit overnight before i opened it and removed the blocks so my blocks were either cool or mildly warm when i dealt with them. 

good detail to notice. maybe you could rig up a fan with a filter that helps to create a positive pressure box and helps to cool them.  just an idea off the top of my head. maybe others would have suggestions as well .


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28653445 - 02/09/24 08:53 PM (3 months, 6 days ago)

A 24"x24" hood is awesome technology.  StaCK those BAGS UP IN FRONT OF IT AND KNOCK IT UP WITH SOME CLEAN SPAWN. YOU CAN DO IT, MAKE THE LEAP !


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922



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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #28653542 - 02/09/24 11:13 PM (3 months, 6 days ago)

A positive pressure box is interesting idea. Of course I'd rather have a more simple solution but that's a pretty cool idea and might work well. And if it keeps the blocks dry I'm sure it will be better than having wet blocks to inoculate. Maybe the lid of the box could be all filter material, then just put a fan in. Not sure though if it can keep the blocks dry initially, or if they first get wet and then dry up at some point. Would that make the blocks more dirty and suspectible to contams?

Does anyone have other suggestions for this? Would it be just doomed from the start to store the blocks in open air and just wipe them before inoculation?


And yeah wtfcrazymofo, it seems that the leap is definitely doable and I'm very intrigued about it. Just gotta think it through first. I'm also soon getting back to another brand of straw pellets which have yielded me 20%. If it still works like that with my current setup and amounts there'll be no need for the leap.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28653835 - 02/10/24 08:35 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

you could also stack your blocks up in front of the flowhood for an hour to cool them down with clean air before storing them. 

also, for the size i think you are doing, may be worth going a full 2ft by 4ft hood.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28654035 - 02/10/24 10:50 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Well that's it I think. So simple, yet it didn't cross my mind. Turn on hood, open autoclave in front of it and unload to workbench in front of the hood and let cool down there until moved to a tote wiped with iso, also in front of the hood. Lid on and hello two days later. I think this would work ok. Thanks taku.

Yeah I've thought about the hood and I'm gonna get me a big one. It's just a bit more wood and filter material, but are there any downsides to bigger flowhoods? Many people have just a tiny one and I wonder why, I don't think it's even much more work to build a bigger one. Though I'm not sure if I'm going to build one or just order a ready made unit.

One another thing I've been thinking about. I'm under the impression that if I sterilized my subs they will colonize and fruit like clockwork (assuming they get consistent environments for doing so). Is this right? Now that I'm not sterilizing I sometimes get bags even up to five days late if the straw pellet lot is bad etc. I'm dreaming of not having this issue anymore if I started sterilizing.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28654048 - 02/10/24 10:59 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Big flow hoods are so heavy and hard to move.  Just make sure you can fit the flow hood through the door. 

Bigger HEPAs have bigger blowers that take more power and make more noise and vibrations.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: Generic]
    #28654161 - 02/10/24 01:01 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Right, that makes sense. The door will be no problem, and noise and vibration either. There's already quite a hum from all the fans and stuff going on there, so a little more shouldn't hurt. Especially that it's not always running.

Haven't thought them to be heavy though, if it's just wooden frame and a blower.

Does anyone know where could I buy a ready made one (if they're not all ridiculously priced) in the EU area? Or with shipping possible to EU area? There are some used commercial lab flowhoods in Ebay but they're all like 30 years old, bulky and expensive.

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28654569 - 02/10/24 06:51 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Look for a fan filter unit. I bought one of those and it’s light and required little setup.

Only downside to a bigger hood is the expense. But it’s a worthwhile expense for sure.

With sterilization you have more control on timing for sure. But there will still be factors that play with your timing like temperature. You can control those factors as well, but depends on your setup.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28654857 - 02/10/24 11:22 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Allright.

Is this what you mean?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184397310135?hash=item2aeeefa8b7:g:N4IAAOSwRgJXibND&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8AX%2FPhEn3ttl9AS6pkAAul%2Bix0WePOyOsoNgV5F6f1sPPfiN7h18JSTQaib3CTPoA7hXO%2B9r2j35IsLQ6BfWxivMNT6Z0bcS7qpMRfnCof2t6fxypdutvQEhjOoXWun1HETSX0TPtkdyfd5kbJUSkd14v5%2Ft3qstRi2etG0cku65SCN8SqI6Ar6d7KntfRrQNGy2yUrVz95ftVUq4ly77YJduRmYDI9s8g5FvbRXQS8QdZbeCGtUS%2FdNw0ZZJ7YiOkzAgYsbsSNXuF%2FPfNbyoFWVfTNy84lpJtxeZyMoICZXINQUNzv2V69sBhZlgrTzUA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM4Ob17LJj

This thing seems to have the fan too so...what's the actual difference between a ffu and a flowhood? Or am I looking at the same thing?

Yeah I'll go for the big one, I can spend a few hundreds for that. It's the autoclave that makes things difficult for my wallet lol

Edit: Is this the shit? That's actually a steal. Only thing is that they don't mention the word hepa anywhere.. is this something else?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/325036750060

Edited by spasm666 (02/10/24 11:55 PM)

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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28655065 - 02/11/24 07:11 AM (3 months, 4 days ago)

yes, that's a ffu in both pictures.  there really isn't a difference between a flowhood and an ffu, since an ffu is a flowhood. just most people are referring to a homemade laminar flowhood when saying flowhood, whereas a fan filter unit is a manufactured flowhood - both provide laminar flow of air through a hepa filter. 

the ffu is usually slimmer and you obviously don't have to source materials like the proper sized fan and such for it all to work - it shows up and is ready to plug in and go.

i can't read the information in the 2nd picture, but it would be good to know how long it was used for and to obviously be able to go and check that it works.  you would also want to know the age of the hepa filter, how it has been stored (i keep mine covered when not in use), and the details about the hepa filter (e.g. does it create 99.9% clean air?). 

with a ffu, it's also a good idea to put a preliminary filter over the fan in the back. most people do this when they build a flowhood.  this extends the life of the blower, but most importantly, it helps to avoid clogging the hepa filter over time. i built a little track for my filter to sit in on the back of my ffu, but you could get away with taping a filter over the fan.  the filter should be changed after a time - dependent on amount of use.


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