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Onlinekoods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: twighead] * 1
    #28645433 - 02/03/24 04:38 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Argentina was a member for a year before they pulled out


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28645481 - 02/03/24 05:34 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Marine FLIR camera: $32,000
Ukrainian USV: $250,000
Sinking a $60,000,000 boat because sailors can't see in the dark: priceless.




It's interesting how often relative cost comes up, when not all money is equal. Money depends on production. A camera might be cheaper than a ship's worth of steel, but if you don't have access to the chips that make the camera work, but you have tons of steel...the ship is easier to build.




That might be a good point if Russia wasn't the only major power with a shrinking navy




No, I'm making a different point. Dollars don't win wars. Shovels, boots, and bullets win wars. Dollars can be exchanged for shovels, boots, and bullets, but the exchange rate varies. Comparing price tags of equipment is a layer of abstraction that runs on a number of economic assumptions, some of which may be true, but a number of which are very false. Especially given sanctions and the decoupling of the Russian economy from the western world.

Right now, Russia has pretty much completely shifted to a wartime economy. This has benefits: As chop likes to remind us every few days, Russia is printing new tanks quickly. This also has severe drawbacks, as the economy is not growing, and the tanks they are printing seem to be outdated (by western standards). Of course, Ukrainians are mostly trained on old soviet equipment, and cross-training onto modern western vehicles seems to be going...not optimally. So old soviet era tanks are still capable of doing damage.

Either way, to more accurately respond to your point, and a few points made since then by SirTripALot and Stable, we don't really factor opportunity cost into the cost of military equipment. Decent chips are the current bottleneck in Russia's production. Those chips are going to, probably, missiles and drones. Old soviet era factories can be brought back to life (those that weren't sold for scrap in the 90s) and retooled to make tanks instead of tractors, but without those chips, you're stuck in a tank that has no fire control, no stabilizer, etc.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28645702 - 02/03/24 08:40 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Russia isn’t gonna recover from the war they started for decades. How was this the wests failure?
We didn’t start the war. They lost it and all of their prestige with it.





Unfortunately your comments above aren’t reality, even after being shown why :shrug:

Quote:

This process has paved the way for the emergence of entire industrial sectors which effectively didn't exist before the sanctions were imposed. Coupled with the cutting of massive flow of funds out of Russia and the rise in energy exports, this provided a massive boost to Moscow's economy. The results of these historically unprecedented economic shits were revealed by the World Bank and International Monetary Fund in early August, when they published new data on the world economy for 2022. The newly released information revealed that Russia is now the largest economy in Europe and also the world's fifth for the very first time since Soviet times. In doing so, it overtook Germany, and is now behind China, the US, India and Japan, standing at a staggering $5.51 trillion.



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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28645706 - 02/03/24 08:44 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Ask the average Russian. Because ramping up production of drones is not improving the quality of life.
People are having trouble heating their homes.
There have been drone attacks in the motherland.
The sanctions are not going away if anything they’re going to get worse.
People have taken their business away from them. They have been relegated to working with China some African countries and North Korea.
Germany has strongly gone away from them along with most of Europe. They lost their pipe.

Their economy is not doing well.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28645721 - 02/03/24 08:51 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

I just saw a clip of Roger Waters telling the UN that Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine... and the US is fanning the flames..

I wish Biden was as sharp as he is at 80.


--------------------
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Offlinetwighead
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 3
    #28645747 - 02/03/24 09:21 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Provocation =/= justification, in the context of geopolitics - the US, China and Russia CONSTANTLY provoke eachother, constantly make moves to gain advantages in strategic positioning and economic sway - over other countries - stepping on eachothers toes as they do so.

Usually it's not worth it to make the transition from soft power (where Russia majorly lost in Ukraine) to hard power - and this war is a good example why, it'll take Russia a long time to recoup the economic, military, and political costs of this endeavor when weighed against the marginal gains made. I think it's very clear that their calculus was off and they expected a quick and decisive victory.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: twighead]
    #28645754 - 02/03/24 09:29 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)


Let’s not forget that that’s what they thought.
Keiv in two weeks time. That’s what they thought they could do.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28645762 - 02/03/24 09:37 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Just like the drones



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28645770 - 02/03/24 09:44 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Looks like we will see one of the first documented tank offensive vs drones.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/03/russia-has-massed-500-tanks-for-an-attack-on-kupyansk-thousands-of-ukrainian-drones-await-them/?sh=2a297d745afd


Five hundred tanks. More than 600 fighting vehicles. Hundreds of howitzers. Forty thousand troops. According to Ukraine’s eastern command, Russia has assembled a huge field army in eastern Ukraine opposite the free Ukrainian city of Kupyansk.

It’s obvious what this army aims to do: retake a huge swathe of Kharkiv Oblast that the Russians briefly occupied in 2022—until a powerful Ukrainian counteroffensive liberated most of the oblast late that year.

Everything east of the nearest major river is the goal. “The Russian Federation plans to seize the entire Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts and part of Kharkiv Oblast up to the Oskil River by March 2024,” the Ukrainian Center for Defense Strategies explained. The river threads through Kupyansk from the north.

Why March? Because that’s when Russia will “vote” for “president” in a national “election.” In fact, Vladimir Putin is the only real candidate—and will maintain his brutal, dictatorial control over Russia and the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine.

A slice of Kharkiv would be an election-day gift to Putin from the Russian army in Ukraine.

Some or part of around 10 Ukrainian brigades, anchored in the north by the 3rd Tank Brigade and south by the 4th Tank Brigade, defends Kupyansk and surrounding settlements. It’s a significant forces with perhaps 20,000 troops and hundreds of tanks, fighting vehicles and howitzers.

But people and vehicles aren’t the problem for the Ukrainians. The problem is ammunition. The United States was one of the biggest donors of 155-millimeter shells for Ukraine’s best big guns—and pro-Russia Republicans in the U.S. Congress cut off aid to Ukraine last fall.

Since then, Ukrainian forces’ daily allotment of shells has fallen by two-thirds to just 2,000 rounds. Russian forces meanwhile fire as many as 10,000 shells a day, thanks to a steady supply of ammo from North Korea.

Russia’s new firepower advantage allows it to concentrate artillery without much fear of Ukrainian counterbattery fire—and aim the concentrated batteries at population centers.

“This situation empowers Russia to execute a well-known approach: the systematic destruction of urban areas, rendering them indefensible,” Ukrainian analysis team Frontelligence Insight explained.

The demolition already has begun. “Our satellite imagery reveals sustained and intense artillery damage” around Kupyansk, Frontelligence Insight reported.

“Artillery shortages and delays in Western security assistance will create uncertainty in Ukrainian operational plans,” the Institute for the Study of War in Washington, D.C. warned, “and likely prompt Ukrainian forces to husband materiel, which may force Ukrainian forces to make tough decisions about prioritizing certain sectors of the front over sectors where limited territorial setbacks are least damaging.”

It’s not clear whether Kyiv is willing to trade away any of Kharkiv Oblast. With a pre-war population of 1.4 million, Kharkiv is Ukraine’s third city—and hosts strategic war industries including Ukraine’s main tank plant.

So the Kupyansk garrison must hold. Anticipating the coming offensive, the Ukrainian defense ministry has organized new mechanized brigades and deployed them to Kupyansk to reinforce the garrison. Engineers are digging trenches and building bunkers.

Perhaps most importantly, Ukrainian workshops are building explosives-laden first-person-view drones—tens of thousands of them per month. As artillery ammunition becomes scarce, Ukrainian brigades are flinging more and more FPVs at the Russians: sometimes thousands per day all along the 600-mile front.

But the FPVs range just two miles or so—too short to target artillery that might be 15 or miles from the line of contact. Drone-operators have made quick work of small Russian assault groups that, for months now, have been probing the Kupyansk sector.

But can a swarm of two-pound drones, even thousands of them, defeat 500 tanks and 650 fighting vehicles as they attack behind a wall of artillery fire? We may find out.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Onlinekoods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28645830 - 02/03/24 10:46 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I just saw a clip of Roger Waters telling the UN that Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine... and the US is fanning the flames..

I wish Biden was as sharp as he is at 80.




Confirmation Roger Waters is still an idiot


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #28645926 - 02/04/24 03:40 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:

Let’s not forget that that’s what they thought.
Keiv in two weeks time. That’s what they thought they could do.




Who exactly is "they"?

Let's see if you can back it up with some proof this time instead of simply tapping out your brain farts.

Before you start, loud mouthed Russian talk show hosts talking shit don't count, in the same way Sean Hannity talking shit doesn't count for much.

Here's the correct answer Mark Milley no peeking until you've had a crack at it,.. go!

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: twighead]
    #28645938 - 02/04/24 03:55 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
it'll take Russia a long time to recoup the economic, military, and political costs of this endeavor when weighed against the marginal gains made.




:facepalm3: The sanctions have failed man, Russia's economy is now the 5th largest in the world, they don't need the collective west for ANYTHING.

Quote:


I think it's very clear that their calculus was off and they expected a quick and decisive victory.



Yeah the 40000 troops were supposed to push Zelensky towards negotiating, which it did, after the first 2 weeks.
The main thing they miscalculated was the willingness of the west to torpedo any chance of a ceasefire, you know this.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #28646016 - 02/04/24 06:27 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I just saw a clip of Roger Waters telling the UN that Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine... and the US is fanning the flames..

I wish Biden was as sharp as he is at 80.




Confirmation Roger Waters is still an idiot




Hardly.

Damn... you got some fuckin nerve writing that here of all places.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (02/04/24 06:28 AM)

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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28646046 - 02/04/24 07:10 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Roger waters has been a known nut since the late 70s. Even within the drug circles and musicians.

You either don’t kno that scene or you are being willfully ignorant.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: mushboy]
    #28646050 - 02/04/24 07:13 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
Roger waters has been a known nut since the late 70s. Even within the drug circles and musicians.

You either don’t kno that scene or you are being willfully ignorant.




Damn... You too?

God damn... this place has really gone down hill.

You gonna ban these fools or what, Balls? Come on.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28646053 - 02/04/24 07:17 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Smack talking the Grateful Dead is the only banworthy offense round these parts.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28646056 - 02/04/24 07:22 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

mushboy said:
Roger waters has been a known nut since the late 70s. Even within the drug circles and musicians.

You either don’t kno that scene or you are being willfully ignorant.




Damn... You too?

God damn... this place has really gone down hill.

You gonna ban these fools or what, Balls? Come on.




I can't ban another mod.  Even if I could, he worded that in a way that doesn't actually break a rule, anyway.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28646057 - 02/04/24 07:22 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Smack talking the Grateful Dead is the only banworthy offense round these parts.




I'm sure that's next. Fucking blasphemers.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28646058 - 02/04/24 07:23 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I can't ban another mod.  Even if I could, he worded that in a way that doesn't actually break a rule, anyway.




He broke ALL THE RULES BALLS! Come ooooon!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28646074 - 02/04/24 07:46 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

If Roger Waters thinks that the US military industrial complex is involved for profit (which I believe they are, just not as a false flag proxy instigator of this war, 'more for profit after the fact'), surely he's considered that Russia could do the same.. and that maybe profit, especially miltary profit, was a part of their motive in as Waters put it, Russia's 'illegal invasion'.

Waters says the invasion was 'provoked' but he gave no details, and such a statement would absolve Russia of any responsibility in their own actions. It'd be like if Australia invaded China because of trade sanctions, or vice versa.

Quote:

Invited to UN Security Council by Russia, Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters calls Ukraine invasion illegal, but not unprovoked

Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters has addressed the UN Security Council at Russia's invitation, condemning Moscow's invasion of Ukraine as illegal — though adding he believed it was provoked — and calling for a ceasefire.

While Waters condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine as illegal, he also said it "was not unprovoked" and he condemned "the provocateurs in the strongest possible terms".

He did not give specifics.

"The only sensible course of action today is to call for an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine," Waters said.

Waters argued against the Western supply of weapons to Kyiv, in a letter that he published on his website in September.

Soon after Moscow's February 24 invasion of Ukraine, Russia introduced tough new laws on spreading "misinformation" about the war or discrediting the Russian army.

Moscow calls its actions in Ukraine a "special military operation" designed to demilitarise and "denazify" the country.

"We've been brought together today once again to hear another version of why Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine is actually the fault of Ukraine or Ukraine's partners. Or, in Mr Waters words, Ukraine friends who are provocateurs," Mr Mills said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/pink-floyd-roger-waters-un-security-council-russia-ukraine/101950676



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