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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,988
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28644262 - 02/02/24 04:55 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Transluminescence
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28644301 - 02/02/24 05:21 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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is there a will of pure awareness? is awareness ever separate from phenomena?
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28644369 - 02/02/24 06:09 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Will could imply relatively, so it's a figure of speech - one will only, or beyond will, no will opposed. I was thinking of in Acim our function is to extend (it), describing the one will.
"is awareness ever separate from phenomena?"
Does awareness converge with, and is phenomena separate from attributelessness? Can we by experience say beyond attributes? I don't think I can, but it is described, without attributes.
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tree frog
eats bugs



Registered: 09/14/23
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28644476 - 02/02/24 07:37 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: who is the agent in samahdi?
Mindfulness, Investigation, Energy, Joy, Ease, they're the conditions for Samadhi with the practice I'm following.
Letting the agent go seems to be a major condition for deepening samadhi. And even more subtle forms of I making for equinimity.
Equanimity I'm still learning to recognize. It's pretty unsubtle at times. Going from being off balance all the time to not feels just as pleasant as being physically pushed off balance feels unpleasant. Like the roller coaster suddenly stopped. And that can be exciting which, starts it all up again.
Probably something there. Letting the mind settle into that pleasant sensation of being balanced. Instead of chasing it.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 2
#28644899 - 02/03/24 07:27 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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from The Surangama Sutra
"Although there are ten directions, the worldly man recognizes only the east, west, south and north as cardinal points but disregards the intermediate ones and the zenith and nadir which he considers as unimportant."
That these would relate to the klesas (*trouble, defilement, passion), if so, is intriguing. spinvis, as you have posted it, you must determine the amount of gold in the crown, or be jailed in the tower. Eureka!
Well, we can't submerge the ten directions in a bathtub, or can we? Then it becomes, "what is the secret of the grail? You are my Lord." I don't know why that connected. Partly because Perceval had ascended from the river in his vision. Also in my visualization, submerging the ten directions, they became as a translucent sphere resembling the story of Archimedes, first pressuring spinvis as he with the task.
To follow, "the king and the land are one." So, we are one with the ten directions. That they could bring affliction is in that, as said, we don't include them. As part of my practice in the purification process, we cast protections, mantra and mudra, in the ten directions, not that I'm so clear of the klesas away from the altar.
In spiritualist perspective, I thought of the density of lower astral we are said to dwell in here, the influence of heavy thought form in our space.
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 782
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28644980 - 02/03/24 08:54 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Also in my visualization, submerging the ten directions, they became as a translucent sphere resembling the story of Archimedes, first pressuring spinvis as he with the task.
That kinda scares me.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28645182 - 02/03/24 12:14 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Well, we found the sacred name to the cause, exclaimed by A. I was searching though without luck on any more relation of the klesas with directions.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28646064 - 02/04/24 07:37 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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The quotes up there are gold - still going through them.
"When the eight consciousnesses are inverted, the Four Wisdoms are produced; when the Four Wisdoms are bound together, the Three Bodies are perfected"
Inverted. I thought of going to their source which is sattva. As well the idea of samyama, the dharana-dhyana-samadhi, done progressively along though I still don't relate, though I may be misinterpreting that from which I think was (commentary on) the yoga sutras, to it being upon a different object as it too inverts.
browsing
Quote:
What Are the Eight Consciousnesses?
1 through 6: The Sense Consciousnesses
The first 5 are familiar: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body consciousnesses. They work with our sense organs and objects of perception to create our experience of the phenomenal world. The 6th sense consciousness, called mind, assembles the input from the other sense consciousnesses into a coherent whole.
7: The Klesha or Deluded Consciousness
The 7th consciousness is the home of our concepts, opinions, and inner discursiveness. Sometimes called the “nuisance consciousness,” it is a source of suffering and a place where we spend far too much of our mental time.
8: The Alaya-Vijnana or Base Consciousness
The alaya is the basis and instigator of all our mental activity. It is where we plant our karmic seeds, so it is also called the storehouse consciousness. As the ground of our experience of dualistic reality, alaya is marked by basic ignorance, which can be transformed into wisdom through advanced meditation techniques.
Quote:
The Four Wisdoms
28. Q: It’s stated that the eight consciousnesses are turned into the Four Wisdoms, and then the Four Wisdoms bind together forming the trikaya; which, then, of these eight states will pool together to form one Buddha-wisdom and then, which Wisdoms are then said to be the transformation into One Consciousness?
A: The five senses (smell, taste, etc.) relate to the five states of consciousness thereby forming the Perfecting Wisdom. Intellect (sixth state), or the mental consciousness, becomes the Wonderful Observing Wisdom. The seventh state with its discriminating awareness becomes the Universal Wisdom. Lastly, the eighth consciousness alone becomes the Mirror-Like Wisdom.
Q: Well, then, do the Four Wisdoms really differ from one another or are they the same?
A: In Substance they remain the same, only the names vary.
Q: Well if their Substance is identical, why do they bare different appellations? And if it is true that these designations are only used as expedients, what is it that is constitutive of one substance that is named “Great-Mirror Wisdom”?
A: That which is still and void—motionless—is the Great Mirror Wisdom. That which is capable of facing mind-defilements without attaching to them through love or aversion, is the Universal Wisdom. That which has the ability to discriminate and discern the wide-field of sensory impressions, while at the same time never experiencing unbridled and reactionary patterns of thought is Wonderful Observing Wisdom. That which can direct all the sense faculties into observing phenomena without being constrained by dualism is known as Perfecting Wisdom.
Q: When the Four Wisdoms combine to form the trikaya, which of them solely becomes one body, and which of them comes-together to form one Body?
A: The Great Mirror Wisdom solely makes up the Dharmakaya. Universal Wisdom exclusively constructs the Sambhogakaya. While both Wonderful Observing Wisdom and Perfecting Wisdom constitutes the Nirmanakaya. Of course, the three Bodies are only specified differently to expediently assist those worldlings who lack the necessary insight to comprehend their unifying nature. For those who are fruitfully endowed with Buddha-gnosis, their Absolute Nature is neither rooted in permanence nor non-permanence.
Simplicity.
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tree frog
eats bugs



Registered: 09/14/23
Posts: 1,556
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28646621 - 02/04/24 04:20 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I have an excellent book on yogacara (eight consciousness model) I'm reading now.
Making Sense of Mind Only - Why Yogacara matters.
Western dude that's practiced a lot in Asia. Lines Buddhism up with modern neuroscience and systems science really well.
He's also done a lot of teaching so the language is easy to follow.
Third yogacara book I've picked up and probably my favorite (I have Thich Nhat Hanh's and have read it a few times, but I still appreciate the Western interpretation).
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28650209 - 02/07/24 10:50 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Still going slow catching up w spinvis quotes. The other day I read the rest of the Devikalottaram, which isn't long. I was familiar with Ramana's views but I don't think I recall reading that piece - I must have forgot.
As moving as the teaching is, as I've done before I grinned and beared the dismissal of using mantra and the like, and teachings like that mostly seem to give an exception, as it does so toward the end with mention of bhakti in form, simply imo because form is not without the formless...
The speaker being Shiva, I was astounded and I accept the particular teaching as is, but it is a facet, ultimate is fine in its own right, but as also Shiva gave manifold teachings including the Rama Raksha Stotram (hymn) to the rishi Vishwamitra in a dream.
Edited by syncro (02/07/24 10:52 AM)
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 782
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28650504 - 02/07/24 02:51 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Still going slow catching up w spinvis quotes. The other day I read the rest of the Devikalottaram, which isn't long. I was familiar with Ramana's views but I don't think I recall reading that piece - I must have forgot.
As moving as the teaching is, as I've done before I grinned and beared the dismissal of using mantra and the like, and teachings like that mostly seem to give an exception, as it does so toward the end with mention of bhakti in form, simply imo because form is not without the formless...
The speaker being Shiva, I was astounded and I accept the particular teaching as is, but it is a facet, ultimate is fine in its own right, but as also Shiva gave manifold teachings including the Rama Raksha Stotram (hymn) to the rishi Vishwamitra in a dream.
You know, that is exactly what I was hoping on, and that's why I cut it after verse 14! Great effort it must've took to read further than verse 17! I was afraid if I cut it there you'd skip it entirely, I'm glad you persisted through it! Awesome! It also moved me.
By the way, I have started in the two books you recommended me a while back, really enjoying them so far.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28650545 - 02/07/24 03:20 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Which ones? Yoga Vasistha?
When reading the quote and the rest of it I thought you cut if off there because of me. No worries, you don't need to. Vasistha perhaps my favorite reading over the years, along with other Advaitic types, in that work that I recall only teaches ceasing conceptual thought outright, and I believe hinting at some vicara, and includes a chapter with the Bhusunda's pranayam. I wouldn't stop reading a Ramana-Shiva thing, and I pretty well read all your quotes.
Edited by syncro (02/07/24 03:21 PM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28650564 - 02/07/24 03:31 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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I Am That?
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28650577 - 02/07/24 03:36 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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It's funny my practice is mantra heavy, but in reading I like the formless types and Buddhisms, jnana. But as we know, bhakti is jnana and jnana, bhakti.
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28650585 - 02/07/24 03:41 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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That one and where are you going?

Read this yesterday:
Jonathan Star; Jelaluddin Rumi - A Garden Beyond Paradise: The Mystical Poetry of Rumi - pp. 148-149;
Quote:
A Garden Beyond Paradise
Everything you see has its roots in the unseen world. The forms may change, yet the essence remains the same.
Every wondrous sight will vanish, every sweet word will fade. But do not be disheartened, The Source they come from is eternal— growing, branching out, giving new life and new joy.
Why do you weep?— That Source is within you, and this whole world is springing up from it.
The Source is full, its waters are ever-flowing; Do not grieve, drink your fill! Don't think it will ever run dry— This is the endless Ocean!
From the moment you came into this world, a ladder was placed in front of you that you might transcend it.
From earth, you became plant, from plant you became animal. Afterwards you became a human being, endowed with knowledge, intellect and faith.
Behold the body, born of dust— how perfect it has become!
Why should you fear its end? When were you ever made less by dying?
When you pass beyond this human form, no doubt you will become an angel and soar through the heavens!
But don't stop there. Even heavenly bodies grow old.
Pass again from the heavenly realm and plunge into the ocean of Consciousness. Let the drop of water that is you become a hundred mighty seas.
But do not think that the drop alone becomes the Ocean— the Ocean, too, becomes the drop!
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28650598 - 02/07/24 03:47 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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That's a double like.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28651500 - 02/08/24 09:31 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Refreshing to see a non coleman barks translation
the languaging of
lol i don't even want to say it 'spirituality'
is so interesting.
I've been reading the conversations of various spiritual groups online. Part of what seems to draw groups together is language resonance. Some people really react positively or negatively to different ways of expressing.
Anyway its interesting this wording above feels so different than Barks', even though it seems to point in the same direction.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,988
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28652275 - 02/08/24 09:23 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: Refreshing to see a non coleman barks translation
the languaging of
lol i don't even want to say it 'spirituality'
is so interesting.
I've been reading the conversations of various spiritual groups online. Part of what seems to draw groups together is language resonance. Some people really react positively or negatively to different ways of expressing.
Anyway its interesting this wording above feels so different than Barks', even though it seems to point in the same direction.
I hear you on that.
All the more oddly interesting, especially when it's more or less the same'ish, albeit differentially expressed.
'Heart to Heart, ~Direct~ Mind to Mind. '
'Nuff said. I needn't even say it.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 782
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Daniel Ladinsky; Hafiz - I Heard God Laughing;
Quote:
We Should Talk About This Problem
There is a Beautiful Creature Living in a hole you have dug.
So at night I set fruit and grains And little pots of wine and milk Beside your soft earthen mounds,
And I often sing.
But still, my dear, You do not come out.
I have fallen in love with Someone Who hides inside you. We should talk about this problem— Otherwise, I will never leave you alone.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,988
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 5
#28652615 - 02/09/24 07:53 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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fyi. you all going at it here, brings me much appreciative joy and reinvigorating energy to continually rest the skandhas & lay off the heavy fetters. Knowing many of you continue exploring, as however one might, and, in whatever way one might express or give word to what comes to light ~ it's rightfully awesome. :chefskisss:
Knowing there are those whom value wisdom, is enough to make my blind ass teary eyed-happy. 
....So, thank you all.
Btw... I'm not crying, You're crying! 
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