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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom
    #28641831 - 01/31/24 12:12 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mindfulness will stir the pot and associations will come out, however it is also primarily  a way to learn to relax. Particularly how to relax in the face of associations coming out. It may take years to heal using this process, but that is how it works in a nutshell
1. build calm (by following the breath using any technique.)
2. engage insight (which is restoring calm in the face of mental contents (AKA mara including trauma that is linked to triggers in mental contents))

I find that questioning a person's love (or self love (what do you even mean)) and caring is as insipid an approach as asking about a person's trust in Christ.

profess whatever you want.

I am here and I interrupted you because I thought your approach
Quote:

Freedom said:
Do you have access to self love at all?


was insipid and condescending in public.

If you are professionally equipped to ask that kind of question without an intake session, then you might do so in private.

Here, publicly, share what you know but don't try to make this your private therapy room. It lacks privacy, immediacy, professionality, and is linked by text, so the connection is tenuous at best.

(how naive is that?)





that's interesting, can you share more about why inquiring about love is problematic for you and why you think it should be done by a professional in private?

I'm suprised at your response, and would like to understand where you are coming from




this emerges from another thread - a valid question by Freedom - not necessarily of benefit in that other thread.

Who knows what love is, as it ranges from a mother's love to platonic to romantic, and how is it so easily sung about, yet so rarely delivered with honesty?

Is love other than appreciation and enthusiasm, is love careless or careful?
when we fall in love is it insanity, should we be proud of our weakness or boastful of conquest(s) in love.

For me I am constantly falling in love, but I seldom discuss it. Maybe what I have become is not normal. When I fall in love it is like I am having a dream where everything is amazingly beautiful just as it is, the object of my affection keeps looking more and more perfect to me. I would do anything to stay together with my beloved.

I think love is not easily accessed - certainly not the love I keep falling into.

Still I think Love is something private.

When love is spoken of on stage, it is fantasy, and fantasy love has little value except as diversion. It is a welcomed delusion for the audience. When "feel the love" comes from the stage, it is hypnosis, an instruction to visualize something that is not real, or to transform a breeze into love, to turn the sky into love, to make music be love, One Love, Love your brother as your self, Love heals all, love this, love that.

Not very clear what love is.

In the metta meditation on loving kindness a few aspects of kindness are mixed with yogic enthusiasm and it makes for a good practice in a larger scheme of serious meditation training.

The promise to love is a distortion of reality since if love is a feeling, how can you promise it. I have been married 34 years, and in my opinion we keep falling in love, but we are not youngsters - it is not exactly as it was. The rest is very private. If it were not private it would not be honest. Love may be the most precious thing we experience, but to be glib about it as a commodity that is turned on and off is not very helpful, it is insipid.

Please respond here if you like or not.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28641878 - 01/31/24 12:56 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

I enjoy reading Rumi poems

https://www.rumi.org.uk/love_poems/


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28642101 - 01/31/24 04:34 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

When I hosted some French exchange students they commented that their favorite thing about English swear words was their versatility. How many ways can you describe shit? As many shitting ways as you want.

In French to swear is much more grammatically rigid and defined. To swear is to be bound to a set of linguistic rules, less you want to communicate nothing of meaning. A French person may want to swear in their own unique ways privately without concern for appearing nonsensical.

Love in English is quite versatile. I like this personally but for those who naturally think more like the French language (and many other languages), dependent on certain surrounding characteristics, using the word love may appear to communicate nothing of meaning.

Merde, c'est la vie


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Kickle]
    #28642195 - 01/31/24 05:52 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Appreciation is a good word for love in so much as it stops at that. There's something direct and calming when things are so simple. And then there's desire. The experience of being human, being a whole human, is to experience both. Quite the pickle.

Love in a whole sense is like a hand. What does a hand do? It grabs, takes. But to an almost exact number of times the hand grabs something, the hand will let go of something. Letting go is as much a skill of love as taking and having.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Science advances one funeral at a time”
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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28642518 - 02/01/24 12:30 AM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I enjoy reading Rumi poems

https://www.rumi.org.uk/love_poems/




cool thanks
maybe reading one a day
that would be a good addition to the garden
:laugh:

there are many free rumi books on the internet
and buddhism books
etc.


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with our love with our love we could save the world

Edited by Ferdinando (02/01/24 12:31 AM)

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28643053 - 02/01/24 02:33 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Thanks, I just noticed this thread.

What I'm personally most interested here is from that other thread 'Need Advice' where I asked "Do you have access to self love?"

I'm curious how people took that, if it seems condescending, or insipid or like a therapy question. I sometimes do not see how things are taken by people, so if you could, write here or PM me if anyone wants to share how it landed with them.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28643086 - 02/01/24 02:58 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

There is a lot I could say about love.

Lately the essence of it is openness. Openness allows for connection, to be touched. It may be common to not feel open to many things or people or aspects of people. Maybe our biology gears us more towards fear and self protection and being closed. Maybe the sense of self is an imaginary wall so we can imagine we are separate from everything and somehow protected. I think when people say they love something, what's happening is that thing is like a catalyst for opening, and joy and compassion are aspects of an open heart.

An open heart is just not being separate.

Part of it is like an inward stance to what appears, inside or outside. If shame appears i can have a stance that pushes against and resists the shame, or a stance that allows it, welcomes it and gets close with it.

There is also a feeling of warmth. Even something like shame or anger can be appreciated and allowed (its appearance with in me, in almost all circumstances I do not wish to express myself with anger as a motive). This warmth is like caring or appreciation, loving, wishing for something to be well.

Welcoming and being with is intimacy, closeness. Like watching a face and seeing each little expression and allowing myself to be touched by it. Perhaps its not inhibiting the mirror neurons, allowing myself to feel in response to a face.

Also there is curiosity that comes with care. Because I care I want to see and feel who you are. This comes back to openness. If I am filled with my own thoughts and feelings and world there isn't much room to see and feel you, or a sunset, or a part of me or anything. Letting go, emptying out, a space appears to open up.

This space does not resist anything, it is completely allowing. This space is the essence of love, for it allows connection with anything. This space is unconditional, and allows all conditions, even those I don't like or find disgusting or disagree with. The space allows all my opinions to drop. And then I can be with what appears.

Being with is connection, intimacy. To see or know or feel something or someone without preconception is to love.

This love is transformative.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28643097 - 02/01/24 03:10 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

If there's something curious about it, perhaps an underlying truth is not the inclusion of love but rather the absence of things which hinder appreciation for one's own existence.

It's the same with "high self esteem". A person doesn't need to think highly of themselves but it's very helpful to not think of one's self in negative ways. I think people tend to feel pretty good about themselves when there's nothing in the way of it.

All the same, I don't think it's a bad phrase because it may draw correlations between how we want to treat others and how we treat/view ourselves. I suppose our capacity to see through the weeds of our own existence is a pretty good metric for how well we are able to see and appreciate others.

I use the phrase occasionally myself here. To what degree it's foreign or acceptable to the listener it's hard to know, typing to others we don't know well or at all, who we cannot either see or hear. While others may be more comfortable with something like "do you give yourself a hard time?" or something similar, "self love" is a solid concept that may stick in the mind and grow with time.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom]
    #28643406 - 02/01/24 09:35 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Thanks, I just noticed this thread.

What I'm personally most interested here is from that other thread 'Need Advice' where I asked "Do you have access to self love?"

I'm curious how people took that, if it seems condescending, or insipid or like a therapy question. I sometimes do not see how things are taken by people, so if you could, write here or PM me if anyone wants to share how it landed with them.




Can you think of a more specific thing you are questioning access to,
self love could be construed as masturbation, not that there is anything wrong about it, but it just seems to carry a wide range of insinuation and trivialization.

I might refer to self soothing which I think covers the range of self-care that your term self love may intend.

I seldom refer to one's inner child but this may be a good companion to the self soothing techniques approximating the idea of self love.

I used to talk a bit about love and compassion in a fairly Buddhist context here, but I found the variance of interpretation to be quite wide on these terms (maybe not so at a Buddhist retreat (and I am not a person who goes to retreats except when I retreat into the moment)).


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom]
    #28643417 - 02/01/24 09:57 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
...
This space does not resist anything, it is completely allowing. This space is the essence of love, for it allows connection with anything. This space is unconditional, and allows all conditions, even those I don't like or find disgusting or disagree with. The space allows all my opinions to drop. And then I can be with what appears.

Being with is connection, intimacy. To see or know or feel something or someone without preconception is to love.

This love is transformative.



You said a lot more than this, but probably you had meant "do you have access to a space that does not resist anything, and which is completely allowing."

which means something pretty specific, but it is also something that needs to be cultivated, (maybe even magically conjured up), and it also does not exactly align with the simple feelings and experiences of love, but it is something I am familiar with.

This is about submission, that which does not resist, which is completely allowing.

Many shroomers do supplant the idea of letting go with submitting. It is functional while tripping in order to relax and open up to the unfolding power of psychedelia.

I can also see this question "do you have access to self love" or simply "will you submit, and be completely allowing" as something an alpha hound might ask before dominating and biting another's neck, while the submissive underdog accepts his space below that of the alpha come what may.

You do use the term space, which I guess is a mental-emotional space that you might yogically/magically cultivate. (you might be able to see that this is an imagined space, although if you paid big bucks to learn about it this might not be how you want to look at it)

I still find the overall explanation thus far to be insipid, although the whole thing could be therapeutic or at least educational or distracting from the trauma at hand.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28643420 - 02/01/24 10:03 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I asked an AI https://www.perplexity.ai
What is self love?

what is self love
Sources
https://www.healthline.com/health/13-self-love-habits-every-woman-needs-to-have favicon
https://www.forbes.com/health/mind/how-to-practice-self-love/ favicon
View 2 more
Answer
Self-love is the state of appreciating oneself and prioritizing one's own well-being and happiness. It involves accepting oneself fully, treating oneself with kindness and respect, and nurturing personal growth and well-being2
3
. This concept encompasses taking care of one's own needs, setting healthy boundaries, speaking to oneself with love, and forgiving oneself3
. Practicing self-love is important for mental well-being and can involve various habits such as prioritizing one's needs, setting boundaries, speaking kindly to oneself, and celebrating personal growth4
.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28643837 - 02/02/24 11:07 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
...
This space does not resist anything, it is completely allowing. This space is the essence of love, for it allows connection with anything. This space is unconditional, and allows all conditions, even those I don't like or find disgusting or disagree with. The space allows all my opinions to drop. And then I can be with what appears.

Being with is connection, intimacy. To see or know or feel something or someone without preconception is to love.

This love is transformative.



You said a lot more than this, but probably you had meant "do you have access to a space that does not resist anything, and which is completely allowing."

which means something pretty specific, but it is also something that needs to be cultivated, (maybe even magically conjured up), and it also does not exactly align with the simple feelings and experiences of love, but it is something I am familiar with.

This is about submission, that which does not resist, which is completely allowing.

Many shroomers do supplant the idea of letting go with submitting. It is functional while tripping in order to relax and open up to the unfolding power of psychedelia.

I can also see this question "do you have access to self love" or simply "will you submit, and be completely allowing" as something an alpha hound might ask before dominating and biting another's neck, while the submissive underdog accepts his space below that of the alpha come what may.

You do use the term space, which I guess is a mental-emotional space that you might yogically/magically cultivate. (you might be able to see that this is an imagined space, although if you paid big bucks to learn about it this might not be how you want to look at it)

I still find the overall explanation thus far to be insipid, although the whole thing could be therapeutic or at least educational or distracting from the trauma at hand.





I see a sticky tangle of assumptions reflected back.

I was sharing whats new for me personally with love. When I wrote, "There is a lot I could say about love." that was meant to indicate that there are many other angles on love inside me, and I was only sharing a small portion of it. When I wrote, "Lately", that was to indicate what is new for me recently.

My current learning edge about love is not what I thought of when I asked "Do you have access to self love?"



Quote:

You said a lot more than this, but probably you had meant "do you have access to a space that does not resist anything, and which is completely allowing."




nope

Quote:

This is about submission, that which does not resist, which is completely allowing.





nope

Quote:

I can also see this question "do you have access to self love" or simply "will you submit, and be completely allowing" as something an alpha hound might ask before dominating and biting another's neck, while the submissive underdog accepts his space below that of the alpha come what may.




nope


Quote:

You do use the term space, which I guess is a mental-emotional space that you might yogically/magically cultivate. (you might be able to see that this is an imagined space, although if you paid big bucks to learn about it this might not be how you want to look at it)

I still find the overall explanation thus far to be insipid, although the whole thing could be therapeutic or at least educational or distracting from the trauma at hand.




sounds like you think you have me all figured out.

If you want to understand me or someone else, instead of telling them your imagination about who they are and where they are comming from, it might be much more helpful to ask questions.

I don't see this conversation going anywhere with you appearing to believe all the assumptions you have. Believing assumptions blocks any room for communication and understanding.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28643842 - 02/02/24 11:16 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Thanks, I just noticed this thread.

What I'm personally most interested here is from that other thread 'Need Advice' where I asked "Do you have access to self love?"

I'm curious how people took that, if it seems condescending, or insipid or like a therapy question. I sometimes do not see how things are taken by people, so if you could, write here or PM me if anyone wants to share how it landed with them.




Can you think of a more specific thing you are questioning access to,
self love could be construed as masturbation, not that there is anything wrong about it, but it just seems to carry a wide range of insinuation and trivialization.

I might refer to self soothing which I think covers the range of self-care that your term self love may intend.

I seldom refer to one's inner child but this may be a good companion to the self soothing techniques approximating the idea of self love.

I used to talk a bit about love and compassion in a fairly Buddhist context here, but I found the variance of interpretation to be quite wide on these terms (maybe not so at a Buddhist retreat (and I am not a person who goes to retreats except when I retreat into the moment)).





My question was not specific, that is why I used a word that was vague. The response could be specific or vague. This is to allow the responder to bring what is most true for them. There are many things that could come under the phrase 'self love'.

When people have specific understandings and responses to words that include many things, it shows how that person responds to the word. I think this is revealing something about you in this situation, but that's not my business.

However I did ask for others to chime in. If others feel there is something of with my question, I would look at that more. Otherwise it seems that you've had some kind of reaction and are projecting your own stuff on this situation.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom]
    #28644038 - 02/02/24 02:03 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Unless y'all want an analogy about high quality bandwidth I'ma just contribute this, as as much about facilitating a sense of self love.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom]
    #28644046 - 02/02/24 02:08 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

true, I perceive and I project, but if this is not about me and not about you as per your PM's then what are you actually saying?

that you are purposefully being vague and have disdain for me noticing that?
is disdain a form of love that you are filling up your self with?

I do not mean to send you back into therapy but I am getting evidence of duplicity and impatience which is not love,
and that is why I would not cloak myself in the wrappings of love, honestly. if I were you or if I were me or the next guy either.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28644064 - 02/02/24 02:20 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

my PM was about trauma and mindfulness, which was my concern

this thread is about my question, "Do you have access to love?" which is your concern.

In this thread here, I am trying to respond to your concern.

What you stated previously was that my question was insipid, condescending etc. above you now mentioned you thought it was like some aggressive alpha animal trying to get another to submit.

I don't have disdain for you saying or thinking these things, however if every time I share something you elaborate on it in your imagination and then believe your elaboration, I don't think we will have skillful communication, or that you will be able to understand where I am coming from.

So I feel hesitant to continue.


I don't think there is anything wrong with asking open questions or someone noticing that, I think its skillful in many cases, including the one we are talking about.

If you can point something out about why you think the question was harmful I'm interested, however the assumptions you're making about where I'm coming from are far off the mark.

I don't feel any disdain for you. As I said I think your an intelligent, funny, creative caring person. That's how you appear to me. I would like to be friends with you.

It seems like you see me as a threat and are interpreting my words to fit that view.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28644102 - 02/02/24 02:37 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

I do not see you as a threat but you are very tenacious, which is (I am projecting here) linked to a desire to understand (more than anything else)
but you are also (as we all are) easily motivated to say something that I think is insipid.
So
I do hope we are still friends.
I am happy to be naive even if only occasionally.


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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #28644122 - 02/02/24 02:49 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

I don't know what you mean by insipid or how it applies. i don't find it helpful to just get a few labels.

I believe you when you say tenacious.

I would like to normalize being naive, or that we don't have a complete view of most things, or that there is much to learn about everything

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28644153 - 02/02/24 03:22 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

agreed


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Re: Some throughts about talking about love for (the member called) Freedom [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #28645051 - 02/03/24 10:13 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:




when we fall in love is it insanity, should we be proud of our weakness or boastful of conquest(s) in love.




I think falling in love in the traditional sense is a mix of having our hearts opened in a big way in response to someone and becomming strongly attached to them as a source of that opening. There is nothing weak in the openess, in compassion, in kindness, in joy, in freedom. If there is something 'weak' wouldn't be the attachment and depending on one person to experience an open heart?

I wouldn't say its weak though, there is great strength in eduring the pain of  attachment and enduring the pain of a heart that is closed most of the time.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
For me I am constantly falling in love, but I seldom discuss it. Maybe what I have become is not normal. When I fall in love it is like I am having a dream where everything is amazingly beautiful just as it is, the object of my affection keeps looking more and more perfect to me. I would do anything to stay together with my beloved.

I think love is not easily accessed - certainly not the love I keep falling into.




The beloved being everything? I think it is probably rare for a person to be falling through life or life falling through them in love continuously. I do meet people I suspect are quiet lovers. I remember a woman in a nursing home who was a physical therapy aide. She seemed always full of tender joy, singing to the residents. And I think almost everyone has moments even if unrecognized, in the middle of a genuine laugh, after waking from a nightmare, talking to their child on the phone, a moment of gardening where the perfection flows through, listening or playing music, a perfect volley in pickle ball, playing with a dog....


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Still I think Love is something private.





I think our entire experience is private. No one can feel your hands from the inside or see through your eyes but you. I think part of the impulse to connect is from the inuited understanding of our inherent isolation.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
When love is spoken of on stage, it is fantasy, and fantasy love has little value except as diversion. It is a welcomed delusion for the audience. When "feel the love" comes from the stage, it is hypnosis, an instruction to visualize something that is not real, or to transform a breeze into love, to turn the sky into love, to make music be love, One Love, Love your brother as your self, Love heals all, love this, love that.




All words are fantasy. They are fantastic fingers pointing to the pallette of your memory. When it comes to love in this moment, can those fantastic memories point to something alive now? Maybe it can, maybe it can't. Maybe its easier for some and more difficult for others.  If you generalize your experience to everyone else, isn't that just pretending everyone else is like you? If you believe your generalization, doesn't that blind you to receiving who they might be?


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
The promise to love is a distortion of reality since if love is a feeling, how can you promise it.




I don't think love is a feeling. Like parents don't always feel good or loving when they are taking care of their children. They might feel annoyed and frustrated, yet it is still comming from love.

I don't think we can really promise anything truly as we don't have that much control over everything, but we can intend to do our best.

Quote:

redgreenvines said: Love may be the most precious thing we experience, but to be glib about it as a commodity that is turned on and off is not very helpful, it is insipid.






Part of what I find difficult communicating with you is you write in generalized declarations rather than sharing your own experience, and you then put that as arguments against what I or others may share about their experience.

Love is not something we can take out and examine, weigh, do controlled experiments on. Its personal, and in my experience my understanding and experience of it has changed over time. You don't have access to what love is like for me. When I share about it, your comments and arguments are irrelevent, because you only have your own experience of love to compare. I shared something personal because you asked, however it doesn't appear that you actually wanted to know what its like for me, because you made so many declarations and comments judging and interpreting what I wrote.

I think it may be helpful for you to recognize that people can have different experiences. Has love changed at all for you? If so you can recognize just in yourself there have been different experiences of love. How much more might it vary between individuals?

Perhaps what I say is tasteless to you, thats cool, but it isn't to me and it might not be to someone else. And perhaps if you could view it differently, say looking for what might be interesting or alive in it, you might find a flavor you resonate with or even a new one you could explore in your own beautiful and private life.

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