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ReverendMyc
succinct is not my forte

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,849
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight] 1
#28643862 - 02/02/24 11:36 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LadysKnight said: What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters. Science eh?
The design of the seal on canning lids is meant to allow gas to escape upon heating and then seal in a vacuum when the steam condenses. Media bottle gl45 lids are supposed to work that way as well. In both cases it is not advisable to tighten down too much before heat is applied and risk defeating the pressure release mechanism.
-------------------- Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023 Don't Panic   
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SwabMarley
Twisted Metal Head



Registered: 12/07/20
Posts: 1,571
Loc: Drunken Stupor
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
#28643864 - 02/02/24 11:37 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Okay, so stipe is on a self ban until the 16th but watch this space
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LadysKnight
Hello Ladies


Registered: 10/09/15
Posts: 1,976
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ReverendMyc] 2
#28643867 - 02/02/24 11:41 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
ReverendMyc said:
Quote:
LadysKnight said: What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters. Science eh?
The design of the seal on canning lids is meant to allow gas to escape upon heating and then seal in a vacuum when the steam condenses. Media bottle gl45 lids are supposed to work that way as well. In both cases it is not advisable to tighten down too much before heat is applied and risk defeating the pressure release mechanism.
Alright, that seems sensible, but I've never canned food. Is that the common suggested practice? Nobody canning food cranks their lids tight?? Nevermind, just looked it up, yes finger tight is suggested practice for reasons mentioned. Tell Stipe to enjoy his break, we have the Reverend.
Edited by LadysKnight (02/02/24 11:47 AM)
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jimineycricket
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/19
Posts: 76
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight]
#28643869 - 02/02/24 11:45 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Trying to grow in low to high 50s here , if I use a small oil heater in a closet as a grow space to get temps up in a very cold house the issue I could run into is my sub drying out as the relative humidity goes below 50% , but if I put a bowl of water in the closet or a mini humidifier we should be good?
Am I right in thinking if humidity outside a tub of substrate is much lower than in the tub then moisture is drawn out and drying occurs?
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight] 2
#28643872 - 02/02/24 11:47 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LadysKnight said: What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters. Science eh?
Also this. And the reason they're sealed is because as the air expands it's forced outward, keep in mind it is not replaced by anything because a vacuum is formed when the temperature is lowered.
We don't want to create vacuums in our spawn jars but simply loosening the lid is not allowing steam to ENTER the jar during sterilization. It's allowing air OUT as the temperature rises. As the temperature lowers, the water on the outside is cooling first and condensing back into liquid, while some vapor may return into the jar it's only enough to replace the air that has exited and mostly what is returning is air as liquid shouldn't be able to easily pass back in.
So there, if you want to argue that steam enters the jars physically I will concede that water vapor returns to the cracked jars as they cool but this is at the end of the process and doesn't play a part in the actual sterilization.
Everything happens in reverse order thermally as it cools.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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Pnin
Riz Gukgak


Registered: 07/18/23
Posts: 486
Last seen: 1 day, 16 hours
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
#28643874 - 02/02/24 11:48 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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QQ: recently having some mold issues. Nothing has changed in my process except that I've been keeping my jars in a cabinet with a grow light due to cold temps. Could the heat from the grow light be contributing to contamination?
-------------------- 🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿 >my end of 2023 grow journal<
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LadysKnight
Hello Ladies


Registered: 10/09/15
Posts: 1,976
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger] 1
#28643886 - 02/02/24 11:55 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said:
Quote:
LadysKnight said: What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters. Science eh?
Also this. And the reason they're sealed is because as the air expands it's forced outward, keep in mind it is not replaced by anything because a vacuum is formed when the temperature is lowered.
We don't want to create vacuums in our spawn jars but simply loosening the lid is not allowing steam to ENTER the jar during sterilization. It's allowing air OUT as the temperature rises. As the temperature lowers, the water on the outside is cooling first and condensing back into liquid, while some vapor may return into the jar it's only enough to replace the air that has exited and mostly what is returning is air as liquid shouldn't be able to easily pass back in.
So there, if you want to argue that steam enters the jars physically I will concede that water vapor returns to the cracked jars as they cool but this is at the end of the process and doesn't play a part in the actual sterilization.
Everything happens in reverse order thermally as it cools.
 I suppose regardless of the physics at play, my takeaway here is to keep those unmodded lids loose during PC.
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Yahra
Meow


Registered: 03/06/23
Posts: 2,555
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight]
#28643892 - 02/02/24 11:59 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LadysKnight said: I suppose regardless of the physics at play, my takeaway here is to keep those unmodded any lids loose during PC.
Fixed.
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SwabMarley
Twisted Metal Head



Registered: 12/07/20
Posts: 1,571
Loc: Drunken Stupor
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Pnin] 3
#28643893 - 02/02/24 11:59 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I have a reply on the sterilisation nonsense. This is a direct quotation from @Stipe himself so fuckin strap in muthafuckers! Tell those noobs that any vessel used for our purposes will be vented, not sealed, for gas exchange. Whether the vessel is an unmodified lid, which leverages gravity in much the same way a swan neck flask does to prevent microorganisms from entering the vessel, the unmodified lids use the gaps in the threads as both obstacles to microorganisms and as a route for gases (and pressure) to exchange and equalize.
In my thread on autoclave verification I use chemical indicator strips to prove contact with steam in both mycobags and filtered jars.
Evacuating trapped gases via a purge cycle allows steam to replace any previously trapper atmospheric gas, which in turn fills the gaps between the grains with steam; if this were not the case, the chemical indicator strips, both individually placed, and integral to the self contained biological indicators would not have reacted/changed colour.
Furthermore, the indicators would fail to sterilize due to the absence of latent energy sufficient to destroy bacterial endospores buried central within the load.
Furthermore, bags seal upon cooldown due to the physics of steam and the volume it occupies within the bag relative to water. On cooldown, the steam between the grains takes up 1000 times more volume than liquid water, when condensed from gas back to liquid water, the bags produce a vacuum facililitaded by both the opening of the mouth of the bag, and the filter patch, producing a firm seal once cooled.
To suggest otherwise, is daft noobery, get good. The end.
Feel free to link my thread on the topic:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27970850#27970850
And this video from Unicorn detailing the vacuum seal of bags upon cool-down:
si=k94kEnr-Ek5WbGov
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



Registered: 04/01/22
Posts: 12,840
Loc: Hole
Last seen: 35 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Pnin] 2
#28643894 - 02/02/24 11:59 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pnin said: QQ: recently having some mold issues. Nothing has changed in my process except that I've been keeping my jars in a cabinet with a grow light due to cold temps. Could the heat from the grow light be contributing to contamination?
Unfortunately no. I say unfortunately because I had a very similar problem where no processes in my op changed and suddenly I shot up to a near 100% failure rate on grain. The problem is elsewhere, and it might be hard to find.
-------------------- A Love Letter to New Growers A Guide for New Growers Need Spores? - Sablabs.org Just because your tub contamed, doesn’t mean your attitude has to contam as well.

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SwabMarley
Twisted Metal Head



Registered: 12/07/20
Posts: 1,571
Loc: Drunken Stupor
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
#28643896 - 02/02/24 11:59 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Dictated not read
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Pnin
Riz Gukgak


Registered: 07/18/23
Posts: 486
Last seen: 1 day, 16 hours
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Smellyhobbit] 1
#28643914 - 02/02/24 12:13 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Smellyhobbit said:
Quote:
Pnin said: QQ: recently having some mold issues. Nothing has changed in my process except that I've been keeping my jars in a cabinet with a grow light due to cold temps. Could the heat from the grow light be contributing to contamination?
Unfortunately no. I say unfortunately because I had a very similar problem where no processes in my op changed and suddenly I shot up to a near 100% failure rate on grain. The problem is elsewhere, and it might be hard to find.
Thank you Smelly!
-------------------- 🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿 >my end of 2023 grow journal<
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San Pedro Girl
Shoebox Ninja🥷




Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2,447
Loc: Fuck off pig!🐷
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
#28643917 - 02/02/24 12:15 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
SwabMarley said: I have a reply on the sterilisation nonsense. This is a direct quotation from @Stipe himself so fuckin strap in muthafuckers! Tell those noobs that any vessel used for our purposes will be vented, not sealed, for gas exchange. Whether the vessel is an unmodified lid, which leverages gravity in much the same way a swan neck flask does to prevent microorganisms from entering the vessel, the unmodified lids use the gaps in the threads as both obstacles to microorganisms and as a route for gases (and pressure) to exchange and equalize.
In my thread on autoclave verification I use chemical indicator strips to prove contact with steam in both mycobags and filtered jars.
Evacuating trapped gases via a purge cycle allows steam to replace any previously trapper atmospheric gas, which in turn fills the gaps between the grains with steam; if this were not the case, the chemical indicator strips, both individually placed, and integral to the self contained biological indicators would not have reacted/changed colour.
Furthermore, the indicators would fail to sterilize due to the absence of latent energy sufficient to destroy bacterial endospores buried central within the load.
Furthermore, bags seal upon cooldown due to the physics of steam and the volume it occupies within the bag relative to water. On cooldown, the steam between the grains takes up 1000 times more volume than liquid water, when condensed from gas back to liquid water, the bags produce a vacuum facililitaded by both the opening of the mouth of the bag, and the filter patch, producing a firm seal once cooled.
To suggest otherwise, is daft noobery, get good. The end.
Feel free to link my thread on the topic:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27970850#27970850
And this video from Unicorn detailing the vacuum seal of bags upon cool-down:
si=k94kEnr-Ek5WbGov
Stuff like this on the shroomery is so confusing to me and happens a lot with very established sciences. It’s not like we’re pioneering how gravity cycles on autoclaves work. It’s an easily googlable thing with enough peer reviewed studies to make your head spin, but you still get the science deniers. I miss stipe.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley] 2
#28643921 - 02/02/24 12:19 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Wait a minute. No this is NOT settled. This statement right here.
Quote:
It is common to see a color change from the spore ampoules from purple to black; usually this distinguishes indicators that have been exposed to steam to those that have not.
First of all Citation needed. The contents of the ampule do not change due to coming into contact with "steam from the outside of the jar" it never says that anywhere.
And this
Quote:
McKesson Steam Indicator Strip: For monitoring Steam sterilizers operating at 250-285 Degrees F (121-140 Degrees C). The indicator strip provides distinct color change when exposed to the steam sterilization process.
Keyword there is PROCESS. It doesn't say steam from outside the jar.
It changes color when the temperature is reached. Not when steam from the outside of the jar physically touches it. There is no way to distinguish between steam generated from the outside and steam coming off the grains themselves.
None of this write up proves that steam is physically being forced into your jars and nothing about any of the wording in regards to these indicators is implying that. I 100% guarantee if you put an indicator strip in a dry verm barrier it will come out dry and change color.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger] 2
#28643926 - 02/02/24 12:25 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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And if we're going to go back to googling and research. Let's ask chatGPT, a language model with the full collected sum of all human knowledge at it's disposal what it thinks. Prompt was "when pressure canning, does steam from the pressure cooker physically enter the canning jar"
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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San Pedro Girl
Shoebox Ninja🥷




Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2,447
Loc: Fuck off pig!🐷
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
#28643932 - 02/02/24 12:34 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: And if we're going to go back to googling and research. Let's ask chatGPT, a language model with the full collected sum of all human knowledge at it's disposal what it thinks. Prompt was "when pressure canning, does steam from the pressure cooker physically enter the canning jar"

Stop pressure canning your mushrooms! 😜 But seriously, I’ll leave the rest of this to people smarter than me. Thanks for the debate Tiger. Brain exercise is good for me.🙂
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl] 3
#28643958 - 02/02/24 01:05 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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You can put those validation strips in an oven and they'll change. They just detect temperature. They're basically useless for mycology. They're useful in places with more than one shift so the next people who come know if something has been processed. To validate an autoclave you need spore tests (biological indicators). They have 1x10^9 or more endospores from thermal vent bacteria that are the most difficult to kill. Then you have to put the spore test into a special incubator that will detect growth to determine if the sterilization was sufficient or not.
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Lynari
Stranger

Registered: 11/15/20
Posts: 1
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger] 7
#28643978 - 02/02/24 01:22 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Actual factual published biologist who uses and maintains autoclaves on a daily basis here: the verification is via the Bacillus spore amp and not the chemical indicator turning black.
Because the spores in the vial were killed we can infer that the core of the grain jar, the center of the load, reached the conditions required to kill even thermophilic organisms and met the criteria to be called sterile.
The color indicator strip is just there for shiggles in this case/if that's not black you may as well not waste your time incubating the spore vial cuz shit is turbo fucked.
EDIT: holy shit I don't know how to post on the mothership haha I meant to quote the other post but yolo or whatever
Edited by Lynari (02/02/24 01:23 PM)
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Lynari] 2
#28644009 - 02/02/24 01:45 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Edit: this was supposed to be a reply to SPG
You're welcome and all good. I think this is a commonly held misconception and I wanted to bring it up and object when I first read people talking about it 10 years ago but I was afraid of being shouted off the boards as it seemed everyone was just believing it.
Nothing I've googled or read ever describes steam from the outside entering the jars and causing the sterilization and nobody's been able to link me to something that says otherwise beyond another shroomery members repeated claim. Steam is used because we can get it to a very high temperature and evenly distribute that heat.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (02/02/24 01:47 PM)
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San Pedro Girl
Shoebox Ninja🥷




Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2,447
Loc: Fuck off pig!🐷
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
#28644013 - 02/02/24 01:49 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: Edit: this was supposed to be a reply to SPG
You're welcome and all good. I think this is a commonly held misconception and I wanted to bring it up and object when I first read people talking about it 10 years ago but I was afraid of being shouted off the boards as it seemed everyone was just believing it.
Nothing I've googled or read ever describes steam from the outside entering the jars and causing the sterilization and nobody's been able to link me to something that says otherwise beyond another shroomery members repeated claim. Steam is used because we can get it to a very high temperature and evenly distribute that heat.
The opposite is true, actually. Steam is used because it has a very high thermal efficiency, so we can get stuff sterilized at a much lower temperature than dry air. Google autoclave gravity cycles, autoclave best practices, etc to come up with the info you can’t locate.
Admittedly I’m not as smart as stipe, bod, et al, but I used to be over the environment of care of acute hospital sterile processing depts, so it’s my wheelhouse, or used to be when I was smarter.🤣
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