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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #28643744 - 02/02/24 09:19 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

San Pedro Girl said:
Quote:

tree frog said:
I don't think steam needs to enter the jar though.

Moisture in the grains turns to steam and is reabsorbed during cooling.  And I think this moisture is what's doing most of the work.

Which is why improperly hydrated grains are a contamination risk as far as I understand.  Also, people use unmodified metal lids.  And they seem to sterilize fine.



No, steam doesn’t need to enter the jar. You can also sterilize grains without using a PC. I was just explaining how you should use your PC to most effectively sterilize your grains, et al, more effectively, in the shortest amount of time, and at the lowest temperature.

Using your PC to mimic an autoclave, but then denying the ridiculous library of research explaining how that works seems silly to me. Even liquids being sterilized in a PC should have steam permeable closures.




You're right that bringing up the difference between autoclaves and canners doesn't really say anything except no one has yet to explain to me how dry verm stays dry when a real gas, filling the entire volume of the canner, is supposedly permeating evenly through and filling all empty space begins to cool and condense back into water. If this were the case the verm would slowly absorb all water it came into contact with.

Yet open your PC and take out your PF jar and voila. Your verm is dry.

PF jars are not sealed, they have actual holes with a piece of tin foil over them.

No, sorry. There's no steam physically entering your jar. The existing moisture inside your grains is where the sterilizing steam is coming from.



1) Correct, the water in the jar is most likely creating most of the steam in the jar. At the same time, it’s venting the air out of the jar. If it were completely sealed, there would be nowhere for the air to go and sterilization wouldn’t be as efficient.

2) If steam entering the jar would make your verm wet, then why isn’t it wet since you say there’s steam in the jar from the water in the jar. Verm cannot absorb water while it’s heated above boiling point. This is the same reason we can regenerate desiccants in the oven.


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InvisibleSwabMarley
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #28643745 - 02/02/24 09:20 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Yeah I was under the impression that the loosening of the lid was to equalise pressure between the vessel it is inside (the pressure cooker) to the jar inside the vessel. If we didn’t crack our lids then the pressure inside the jar would never get to 15psi no?

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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
    #28643749 - 02/02/24 09:27 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Yes the verm can't absorb a gas. But that evenly filled gas doesn't magically leave the space around the verm when its time to cool and turn back into water. There would be no reason to cover your jars with foil if steam were physically entering a jar.


--------------------
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InvisibleSwabMarley
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
    #28643750 - 02/02/24 09:29 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

As for the ‘implements wrapped in foil not sterilising properly argument’ as long as you don’t wrap these implements to be absolutely air tight (very unlikely if not impossible with foil alone) then surely they will sterilise just fine? I’ve never had issue with this and I’m sure there are countless others to testify to this method.

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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
    #28643757 - 02/02/24 09:34 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

SwabMarley said:
Yeah I was under the impression that the loosening of the lid was to equalise pressure between the vessel it is inside (the pressure cooker) to the jar inside the vessel. If we didn’t crack our lids then the pressure inside the jar would never get to 15psi no?



If there is enough water in the jar and the jar is sealed, it would definitely reach 15psi by compressing the air. The problem is it would exceed 15psi because the excess steam can’t escape and the jar may explode. It’s even worse than that because most glassware explosions happen when the vessel is opened, sending glass shards at you. It’s caused many injuries in labs.


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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley]
    #28643764 - 02/02/24 09:38 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

SwabMarley said:
As for the ‘implements wrapped in foil not sterilising properly argument’ as long as you don’t wrap these implements to be absolutely air tight (very unlikely if not impossible with foil alone) then surely they will sterilise just fine? I’ve never had issue with this and I’m sure there are countless others to testify to this method.



They do sterilize, just not as quickly or to the same SAL they would if they were in an autoclave pouch or can. In these cases, we’re sacrificing time and energy for the convenience of just being able to foil wrap them instead of purchasing the correct containers.


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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl]
    #28643767 - 02/02/24 09:40 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

So if my pc is a shitty one that only reaches 12 psi, i can get more by just not loosening the lids?

Interesting...

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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Yahra] * 1
    #28643769 - 02/02/24 09:42 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Yahra said:
So if my pc is a shitty one that only reaches 12 psi, i can get more by just not loosening the lids?

Interesting...



Don’t ever put a completely sealed container in any pressure vessel. Anyone who says otherwise is giving out really bad advice that could get you hurt.


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OfflineYahra
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl]
    #28643771 - 02/02/24 09:44 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Yes, health is all that counts.

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl] * 1
    #28643777 - 02/02/24 09:46 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

San Pedro Girl said:
Quote:

SwabMarley said:
Yeah I was under the impression that the loosening of the lid was to equalise pressure between the vessel it is inside (the pressure cooker) to the jar inside the vessel. If we didn’t crack our lids then the pressure inside the jar would never get to 15psi no?



If there is enough water in the jar and the jar is sealed, it would definitely reach 15psi by compressing the air. The problem is it would exceed 15psi because the excess steam can’t escape and the jar may explode. It’s even worse than that because most glassware explosions happen when the vessel is opened, sending glass shards at you. It’s caused many injuries in labs.



This makes sense to me. Like you said, I suppose it’s due to the amount of water INSIDE the jar to begin with. Case in point NEVER put a sealed vessel inside your pressure vessel!

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl]
    #28643797 - 02/02/24 10:15 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

San Pedro Girl said:
Quote:

Yahra said:
So if my pc is a shitty one that only reaches 12 psi, i can get more by just not loosening the lids?

Interesting...



Don’t ever put a completely sealed container in any pressure vessel. Anyone who says otherwise is giving out really bad advice that could get you hurt.




Except none of the containers we use in mycology are completely sealed. We use filters that allow for air to escape as the contents heat up and expand.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20

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OfflineYahra
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #28643802 - 02/02/24 10:24 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I had unmodified lids without any holes in mind.

Don't do it, it's bad for your health, mkay?


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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #28643803 - 02/02/24 10:25 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

San Pedro Girl said:
Quote:

Yahra said:
So if my pc is a shitty one that only reaches 12 psi, i can get more by just not loosening the lids?

Interesting...



Don’t ever put a completely sealed container in any pressure vessel. Anyone who says otherwise is giving out really bad advice that could get you hurt.




Except none of the containers we use in mycology are completely sealed. We use filters that allow for air to escape as the contents heat up and expand.



A lot of us use media bottles and unmodified lids.


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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: San Pedro Girl] * 1
    #28643805 - 02/02/24 10:27 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Just member to crack those bitches!? Aight!? Aight!

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InvisibleReverendMyc
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: DarkStarPsychonaut] * 1
    #28643819 - 02/02/24 10:42 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

DarkStarPsychonaut said:
I store my dry fruits in mason jars with desiccant packs
but when I ran out of mason jars I used another kitchen glass jar, the kind with the metal hinge and rubber gasket and glass top. After being stored a few months, I opened the hinged jar and the mushrooms were soft again, so I know the jar isn’t air tight and they absorbed moisture from the air. They still looked and smelled totally fine, so I put them back in the dehydrator and then in an air tight mason and will not use the other glass jar again.

Would you just toss the mushrooms that were dehydrated, rehydrated by air, and dehydrated again? Or if they look and smell fine and are back to cracker dry, is it safe to assume they are safe to consume? I don’t have a shortage of fruits, so tossing them won’t hurt, but also I don’t want to toss sacred magic if they are fine.



I would not expect any danger from the bendy mushrooms that have been dehydrated again as far as unsafe to eat. They may have lost some potency, but shouldn't be a health concern unless they were so wet that they were growing mold.


--------------------
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"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: SwabMarley] * 2
    #28643841 - 02/02/24 11:16 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters.
Science eh?

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight] * 1
    #28643847 - 02/02/24 11:23 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I can fish usually in olive oil and there is always oil in the water in the PC once it cools and I open it. That being said, it's good practice to not over tighten the bands till after the lid has sealed so any pressure can escape during the pressure cycle.

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: elasticaltiger] * 5
    #28643852 - 02/02/24 11:27 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Steam DOES do the sterilization but it's the temperature of the existing water in the properly hydrated grain that does this.

That's why it's possible to dry your grains out. The water in them is vaporizing and exiting them and if the grains are TOO wet you WILL end up with pools and wet spots but it's not anything near what it would be if a half gallon of vaporized water was equally pearmeating all space previously held by air.

I'm open to being wrong but I need these basic observations explained first. I'm a pretty stupid person and stubborn to boot so I'm open to believing that there is a mechanism to explain these:

Dry verm stays dry. Grains lose water and jars don't have deep pools of vaporized water condensing inside them as the temp drops.




I think that there is some confusion here. Not all of the water is turned to steam in the PC or autoclave. In fact, a very tiny portion does at any given moment. If the containers inside the pc are not sealed, the steam (a non-compressible gas) inside will spread to fill the container where space is available pushing out air (mostly comprised of compressible gasses) if it has a place to go (venting). But most of the water in the bottom of the vessel remains liquid with a weight of 1,000 grams per liter. The steam that is equalizing throughout the rest of the space weighs 0.6 to 0.8 g per liter. So even when it condenses as it cools, there is less than a gram of free water in the form of steam inside a liter sized jar. In a pf jar that is about 250 ml in volume, there is less than 0.2 ml of water in the form of steam. When it condenses, that small amount of water is not enough to have any noticeable impact on the verm layer. Whether it enters from the boiled water or off-gassing of the grain hydration would be pretty difficult to determine. But once the pressure and temperature have stabilized it should be pretty homogeneous throughout unsealed volumes.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic



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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LadysKnight]
    #28643854 - 02/02/24 11:28 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
What about canning food? Those jars are completely sealed without filters.
Science eh?



:whathesaid:


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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ibz] * 1
    #28643859 - 02/02/24 11:33 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Look, can we just get @Stipe up in this bitch to drop some knowledge?  Messaged



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