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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,843
Loc: Canada
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28501293 - 10/12/23 07:51 AM (7 months, 2 days ago) |
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Whoopsie doodle, "organisms". I write microorganism with inordinate frequency, my bad. Slip of the ol thumbs 
Edited for clarity.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28502759 - 10/13/23 03:54 AM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Whoopsie doodle, "organisms". I write microorganism with inordinate frequency, my bad. Slip of the ol thumbs 
Edited for clarity.
Thank you. Whole post makes a lot more sense now. haha.
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Land Trout
Stranger



Registered: 01/08/18
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 3
#28503752 - 10/13/23 08:36 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Thanks for doing this stuff Nektar. It always baffled me that people could think adding stuff like that would change what the mushroom produces. If organisms worked like that the natural world would be very strange. And thank you to the mods for helping to keep things civil.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Land Trout] 2
#28503889 - 10/13/23 11:32 PM (7 months, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Land Trout said: Thanks for doing this stuff Nektar. It always baffled me that people could think adding stuff like that would change what the mushroom produces. If organisms worked like that the natural world would be very strange.
You're welcome.
These rumors (that adding something to shroom grow substrate makes more drugs or a different drug) are probably all based on that one short part by Sasha Shulgin quoted above.
It was in a book that was widely read, including by people who might have not understood the chemistry but that part they got.
It looks now looks like that part might have been a rare lapse from the empirical for Shulgin, considering the other info learned since, including the paper linked in Icyurmt's post here; https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28499416#28499416
The newbs who eternally say "But what if you add melatonin (or DMT) to the substrate?" are probably all quoting something on Reddit that's quoting someone's older stoner brother who's quoting his non-chemist friend who read Sasha's books and only understood that one part.
Edited by nektar61 (10/13/23 11:43 PM)
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on_a_dventure
Goat raper

Registered: 11/18/23
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28549864 - 11/20/23 06:52 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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If ur in touch with the peeps at Oakland hyphea just have them test ur products with a hplc system or more advanced equipment to test psyclocybin levels . Also just my personal experiences we use bioreactors to produce huge amounts psilocybin in lc(pretty much) which we extract . I will tell u the psilocybin content of the same culture does change depending on the ingredients in the lc ghosts can b anywhere from 1.1% to 3.1% depending on ingredients but the winner in psilocybin production so far for us has BN Psilocybe semilanceata blew my mind 3.8%. haven't exhausted list yet but we drop a couple new varieties a month to test n c wat happens so can give more info but will b at a later date//now I feel dumb I just read instead of skimming u are trying to produce chemicals other than psilocybin??
Edited by on_a_dventure (11/20/23 06:54 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,843
Loc: Canada
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: on_a_dventure] 5
#28549895 - 11/20/23 07:35 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Lol.
This is about boosting trypatamine content in fruit bodies by amending substrate with precursors like melatonin.
You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts.
Perhaps you can provide a few more details? I'd be interested to hear how you're achieving this.
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Land Trout
Stranger



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28549958 - 11/20/23 08:47 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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on_a_dventure
Goat raper

Registered: 11/18/23
Posts: 8
Loc: East coastal
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28592087 - 12/20/23 10:43 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Sorry my English grammar isn't at ur masters level but thank u for calling me a highschool girl. I always wanted to b bubbly n a girl dream do come true !!!
Ps.. sorry I misunderstood that this wasn't bout lc
Edited by on_a_dventure (12/20/23 10:45 PM)
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DERRAYLD
Constructus


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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: on_a_dventure]
#28593536 - 12/22/23 12:08 AM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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No one is using masters level English here, Stipe was pointing out your 13yr old short hand and lack of grammar.
Something to be said for educated, knowledgeable posts that don't look like children's writing.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,002
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28599956 - 12/27/23 03:32 PM (4 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
The subsequent step involves the 4-hydroxylation of tryptamine by a cytochrome P450-like monooxygenase, PsiH.
If the fungal enzymes can incorporate tryptamine and hydroxylate it, that doesn't appear to refute the notion that adding tryptamines can increase alkaloid content. It supports it.
The idea that N methylation of tryptamine makes it inaccessible to the fungal enzymatic pathways seems like a bold and unsubstantiated claim.
If we consider work like In silico characterization of the psilocybin biosynthesis pathway published just last summer we can read the following from the abstract:
Quote:
The final models were then evaluated using molecular docking interactions with their substrates, i.e., psilocybin precursors (l-tryptophan, tryptamine, 4-hydroxytryptamine, and norbaeocystin/baeocystin), all of which generated feasible binding modes for the expected biotransformation. Further plausibility of the psilocybin → aeruginascin, 4-hydroxytryptamine → norpsilocin, and tryptamine → N,N-dimethyltryptamine conversions, all mediated by the generated model for PsiM, suggests valid routes of formation for these key secondary metabolites.
Even the computer models based on the elucidated pathways indicate that biotransformation and incorporation of tryptamines like DMT into fungal alkaloid content is plausible. This only further serves to validate Gartz's experiments showing substantial alkaloid increases obtained through the use of precursor molecules being added to a substrate.
The current science of today doesn't refute the idea of using tryptamine precursors to enhance potency, rather it supports it thoroughly.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Nillion]
#28607936 - 01/03/24 02:40 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: ...Gartz's experiments showing substantial alkaloid increases obtained through the use of precursor molecules being added to a substrate.
Interesting.
Do you have a link to Gartz's experiments? I'm not finding it.
Thank you.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,002
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608047 - 01/03/24 06:56 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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https://zero.sci-hub.se/4564/f22bf28cb120dd03e779048dde7f5973/gartz1989.pdf https://www.fungifun.org/docs/mushrooms/Psilocybe/BIOTRANSFORMATION%20OF%20TRYPTAMINE%20IN%20FRUITING%20MYCELIA%20OF%20PSILOCYBE%20%20CUBENSIS.pdf
One of these links should work.
The idea that DMT cannot be transformed to psilocin is contraindicated by all available scientific evidence and anecdotes from people who have added certain root bark to PF cakes and fruited them and then compared the activity and dose of said fungi to controls lacking the bark.
The idea that it is a waste, because these fungi do not need DMT in their media to make active alkaloids is accurate. It is not needed and it quite wasteful. Rather than taking culture and adding potential precursors to get stronger fungi it is far more pragmatic and accessible to just grow fungal cultures lines or species that are known to be stronger than average. Nats, Pans or things like Tidal Wave can be plenty strong.
Still, I've been amused by the claims that the method doesn't work coming from those who have not tried it. At least one person has gone around badmouthing Gartz and claiming that he faked his studies. I don't believe this whatsoever.
Consider the material in this paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1476927123000452
So far all the science I am aware of indicates Gartz is legit AF. To say nothing of the anecdotes that support him as well.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Posts: 1,002
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608050 - 01/03/24 06:59 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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I should add, I am not aware of any reason Melatonin would be incorporated into the enzyme pathway or act as a substrate for the enzymes involved.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,002
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608088 - 01/03/24 07:30 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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I found a shroomery page about this: https://www.shroomery.org/9040/Tryptamine-Cubensis
It has this claim:
Quote:
No one has been able to replicate these results even though thousands of people have tried.
I consider that either a lie or a misconception.
I recall Alan banning someone from the FB group for reporting that they tried a MHRB variant of the method and that it worked. There have been at least some people who have experimented with this and who have had results confirming what Gartz did, who have been silenced and had their comments deleted because they shared experiences that didn't fit the preferred narrative.
As for the claim that thousands have tried to replicate Gartz's radiolabeled tryptamine experiment, I've yet to read a single study that attempted to replicate it, let alone a study that tried to do this and which found that the radiolabeled tryptamine remained in the media. Given the scientific data, including the new information about enzyme pathways, as well as Gartz's data and anecdotes of people who have had personally convincing results, I would take any claims that this does not work with a grain of salt.
If someone can post a link to one of the many thousands of studies that are out there, evidently, where no radioactive tryptamine was found incorporated into psilocin and it was found to remain in the substrate, then please do. I think it is time that claim had some evidence before people accept that all replication has failed.
I think a personal grudge against Gartz has more to do with the naysaying on this topic than reality, but that is my personal opinion. Given what I've seen happen in the FB group this post could get me banned permanently from the Shroomery.
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HelloImBob
Old Guy

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 242
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28620732 - 01/14/24 09:34 AM (4 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Lol.
This is about boosting trypatamine content in fruit bodies by amending substrate with precursors like melatonin.
You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts.
Perhaps you can provide a few more details? I'd be interested to hear how you're achieving this.
Sorry but I love this post I couldn't have said it better.
Even the fact that he got upset over it kind of proves it's not worth your time in so many ways it just makes you look exactly like the picture he painted.
Please don't get upset with the people with intelligence if they make a joke from time to time. They after all are the only ones who could possibly help you with your advanced questions/topics.
He was only trying to put it into perspective. If you were in his position and the roles were swapped, would you feel that it would be worth your time to explain something advanced to somebody that probably wouldn't understand it in the first place?
He was only trying to qualify wether or not it was worth his time.
-------------------- Quote from Stipe-n-Cap "You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts."
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: HelloImBob]
#28628089 - 01/20/24 04:16 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
HelloImBob said: He was only trying to qualify wether or not it was worth his time.
If on_a_dventure had the tiny bit of patience to spend five minutes reading my results, linked in the very first post of this thread, he'd have his answer.
If it was too complex for him to read, there's his answer.
I can also tell he didn't bother to even skim this thread, because he told me to use Oakland hyphea for analysis.
I already explained in this thread that I'd tried involving them and they showed themselves to be flaky time wasters who say one thing then do another.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28642792 - 02/01/24 10:24 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a a famous drug chemist, or any kind of chemist, and I doubt he was much of a mycologist.
I'm still saying my test indicated that adding either of these substances to substrate does NOT increase actives.
But I did find something I didn't find before, an example of a fungi producing more of a desired substance by adding something to the grow medium.
On the Wikipedia page for the antibiotic Phenoxymethylpenicillin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoxymethylpenicillin
says
"Contamination of the fermentation tanks was a persistent problem and in 1951, the company biologist, Ernst Brandl, attempted to solve this by adding phenoxyethanol to the tanks as an anti-bacterial disinfectant. This resulted unexpectedly in an increase in penicillin production: but, the penicillin produced was not benzylpenicillin, but phenoxymethylpenicillin."
One of the citations for that section is a book, but the other one is online and has more info:
"This effect of phenylacetic acid was regarded in many quarters as a probable stimulation by a plant hormone-like substance. In contrast, we held it likely that phenylacetic acid acted as a precursor in surface culture, and it was suggested that some other substances would fulfill a similar function for submerged cultures. A considerable number of derivatives of phenylacetic acid have been found to be effective in stimulating the production of penicillin in submerged cultures."
from the PDF:
"BIOSYNTHESIS OF PENICILLINS I. BIOLOGICAL PRECURSORS FOR BENZYLPENICILLIN (PENICILLIN G) BY OTTO K. BEHRENS, JOSEPH CORSE,* REUBEN G. JONES, MARJORIE J. MANN, QUENTIN F. SOPER, F. R. VAN ABEELE, AND MING-CHIEN CHIANGt" https://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(18)57194-5/pdf
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