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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: kitten6]
    #28637411 - 01/27/24 08:34 PM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

kitten6 said:
Quote:

I believe state-media will always serve the private interest of their state



nowadays the corporations are bigger and more influential than the state, actually i am criticising state media on the basis that they seem to be unable to oppose corporate interests at all nowadays, if you look at the state of europe today its not just true for the media, but the fate of every infrastructure which is supposed to serve the people is now in the hands of private firms and their shareholders. When we speak about corporate interests which lobbys' narrative do we expect them to uphold with? Those in washington? those who make billions from arms? most likely, because at the moment there is no other lobby capable of making so much money in the west.

Quote:

I think you'd have to specificy what you're referring to when you say, "weapons with a value of almost one trillion dollars that has been used for incremental war escalations against russia circa feb 2022", for me to be able to properly address the comment.




Im referring to the war thats been going on, and its only escalating further and further, do you think that the EU is able to supply all these weapons for free, in fact the demand is still much higher than the actual supply there is as we see the war activity in ukraine fluctuating with the price of ammunition consistently for the past two years.

the trillion is a likely guesstimate i admit to a figure which cannot be verified when you look at the joint investment of all the countries who signed the nato arms contract for ukraine to help supply to differing degrees. (especially considering the awful cost efficiency of US arms manufacturing industry)

Quote:

Now this I think you're going to have to provide citations for, because from 1991 to 2014 there is specific context to the financial aid provided to Ukraine during the time.




The money put into Ukraine from the US were given through NGOs namely the national endowment for democracy NED and USAID which were funding to the three new TV Channels which appeared in late 2013 before Euromaidan and gave millions in grants for those who would serve US foreign policy interests on social media.

Quote:

Do you think Ukraine has a right to their sovereignty?




Of course every country has the right to sovereignty but it seems that there are global super powers out there who would pump millions if not billions into countries in order to steer that sovereignty towards self serving interests (to creating arms sales). Not just for Ukraine, but for maintaining the imperial influence around the world and perpetual proxy wars for the arms lobby.

Quote:

I tend to try to recognise both Western and Eastern centric imperialism without negating the responsibilities of either for their actions.




So in the case of the ukraine war, this is the most compelling and something I still don't understand why nobody else is talking about, Ukraine is less than 1000km from moscow, is not NATO weaponisation and deployment of offensive weapons in Ukraine not a direct existential threat to Russia?

Now does it make sense my stance on this war?




Can you name one 'state-media' service you're referring too? There is a difference between corporate entities and a state sponsored media service.

A lot of the military gear provided is surplus. But the expenses only bolster military spending in the nation that provided them, and I agree that we have far more than enough of that.

I was referring specifically to what you meant by, 'incremental war escalations'.

It seems you went from $5 billion to millions, I think if you dig further into the allocation of funds to Ukraine between 1991 and 2014, you'll continue to uncover such nuances.

Foreign relations don't justify the imperial secession of territorial sovereignty. Not for the US invading the middle East, or for Russia invading Ukraine.

This is an interesting statement,
Quote:

So in the case of the ukraine war, this is the most compelling and something I still don't understand why nobody else is talking about, Ukraine is less than 1000km from moscow, is not NATO weaponisation and deployment of offensive weapons in Ukraine not a direct existential threat to Russia?




The presumption there is that NATO forces, or backed forces will invade Russia. Thus the presupposition is preemptive invasion.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #28637419 - 01/27/24 08:53 PM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Our freedom of speech is the most valuable thing American culture has ever done in the world. A lot of people take it for granted. I certainly don't.



Lots of countries have free speech, it's not unique to the US.




To the best of my knowledge, no other country on the planet has quite the same free speech protections as the US.

In other countries there is less protection for unpopular speech.. things like Holocaust denial, kkk demonstrations, etc.

To some people, that may seem like a good thing, but when you give a government the power to silence people, it is a slippery slope. People in power will always be inclined to silence dissenting voices, by whatever means they are able.

At any rate... free speech certainly originated as a right in the United States.

feature=shared


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/27/24 09:05 PM)

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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28637462 - 01/27/24 10:10 PM (3 months, 18 days ago)

^ I agree with that. Having done a little traveling outside the country, while I appreciate certain disinhibited freedoms of other cultures (like a kind of self-policing in certain communities), there is something about America that is uniquely free and encouraging to be daring and push the boundaries of EVERYTHING.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #28637524 - 01/28/24 12:13 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

kitten6 said:
So in the case of the ukraine war, this is the most compelling and something I still don't understand why nobody else is talking about, Ukraine is less than 1000km from moscow, is not NATO weaponisation and deployment of offensive weapons in Ukraine not a direct existential threat to Russia?




Moscow is less than 1000km from Ukraine, is not Russian deployment of offensive weapons in Russia not a direct existential threat to Ukraine?

ICBMs and nuclear armed submarines exist, Russia (and the US for that matter) is under existential threat regardless of where land borders are drawn. It's a moot point and a red herring.

Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Lynnch]
    #28637542 - 01/28/24 12:40 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28637544 - 01/28/24 12:44 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

They were also trying to get into the EU. Why the hell did he think he could tell them what to do? Delusional oligarch that he is of course he thought he had to invade them.

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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28637551 - 01/28/24 01:11 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.



Bullshit. :noway2:

He tried to get them to not join NATO, because once they were in NATO, he wouldn't have been able to invade.

If Putin wanted to avoid war, he could have not invaded.

"Hey man, If you agree to remove the doors to your house, then I'll promise I won't rob you"

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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Lynnch]
    #28637554 - 01/28/24 01:17 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.





Actively tries to avoid war by actively invading a neighboring country with his military?  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28637565 - 01/28/24 01:32 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.





Actively tries to avoid war by actively invading a neighboring country with his military?  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




That's not what I said at all.

I dunno, I guess if yall are comfortable misrepresenting my posts, or misprepresenting the truth to fit your shitty marval comic sort of narrative... there's no real point in discussing.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28637572 - 01/28/24 02:04 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.




Why does Ukraine joining NATO mean an invasion of Russia? If the premise is a pre-emptive invasion of Ukraine.

Is the suggestion a cold war era situation?

That Putin will invade Ukraine to prevent a cold war era situation because it's easier to use the Ukranian territory for effective defense positions, than it is to defend from current tactical locations. So he isn't preventing a cold war situation, the suggestion is that Putin is trying to position himself more effectively for envisaged future conflicts.


--------------------
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Edited by sudly (01/28/24 02:11 AM)

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Lynnch] * 2
    #28637577 - 01/28/24 02:29 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
They were also trying to get into the EU. Why the hell did he think he could tell them what to do? Delusional oligarch that he is of course he thought he had to invade them.




The invasion had absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine joining the EU. It's a stupid thing to do for Ukraine because the economic agreements are worse than the one they had with Russia and it just turns Ukraine into another IMF debt-slave nation and whore for US corporations, but it's not a threat to Russia. The main problem was of course NATO. And not just the fact that they wanted to join a hostile military alliance, but also the fact that the Ukrainians wanted to massacre the pro-Russian civilian population of Donbass. Which they absolutely would have done without Russia's intervention. They had already 100x'd their fire density with artillery on Donetsk and its environs before the Russians went in, which was indication that a Ukrainian offensive was imminent.

These factors combined put Russia into a position where they had no choice. Well they did have a choice, but to do nothing in this instance would have had so many negative consequences for Russia and for the millions of civilians in the Donbass that it basically wasn't a choice at all. The choice was *do something* or watch helplessly as tens of thousands of people get murdered by rabid gangs of hate-filled ultranationalists, who would have easily broken through the DPR's defensive lines with NATO assistance. And who put Russia into this position by giving these ultranationalists power in the first place? Of course, the United States itself.

As I've said many times before, if Russia had done nothing and Ukraine had been allowed to invade the Donbass and massacre thousands of civilians Gaza-style, throw people into camps, etc, nobody here would have given even the tiniest of fucks. That's because over here in Westoidia the MSM has almost full control over what uneducated kids like you care about, and what you don't care about. In Westoidia, human lives are only important if the mass media says they are. It's very ironic that you complain about the Russian media while being completely oblivious to how you are manipulated by your own media. I've mentioned it before. But you just ignore anything you don't want to hear.

The double standards and hypocrisy honestly make me sick. The fact that you and most others bitch about Russia invading but you don't give a fuck about *anything* else. You don't care about the people in Donbass, not even if they were being gunned down in the streets by Ukrainian death squads. You don't care about the half a million Syrians that died because the Pentagon thought it was a good idea to support ISIS. You don't care about the millions that died during our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, both based on false pretenses. You don't care about the half a million that died in Yemen of starvation and disease because we blockaded them. You don't care about the people that are still dying every year due to US sanctions, because they don't have access to food and medicine. You don't care about how Libya went from a first-class country with a high standard of living to a third-world shithole because we decided to use our air force to give Al-Qaeda close air support.

You just don't give a fuck about any of it, but you want to whine and moan about Russia. It's hypocritical, childish, immature and rooted in a complete lack of understanding. It makes Americans look like idiotic, whiny hypocrites that just don't give a flying fuck about anything other than their own deeply flawed political bullshit, and fake set of pretend morals. It makes Americans look like utter fools who are happy to flout their double standards and hypocrisy to the world while boasting about how much better they are compared to everyone else, all while they have their dicks out pissing on everyone around them.

That's why I'm constantly bitching about it. Constantly trying to hammer in the same points over and over again ad infinitum in the vain hope that something might finally reach some of the half-empty brains on this forum.




Quote:

Lynnch said:

Bullshit. :noway2:

He tried to get them to not join NATO, because once they were in NATO, he wouldn't have been able to invade.

If Putin wanted to avoid war, he could have not invaded.

"Hey man, If you agree to remove the doors to your house, then I'll promise I won't rob you"




There are so many things wrong with this post but I don't feel like writing another essay. See above.

People like you, spreading completely untrue narratives and distortions of the truth of what actually happened are the problem.

All Ukraine had to do to avoid the invasion was a) drop NATO ambitions and b) abandon plans to genocide the Donbass. Half a million Ukrainians would still be alive today and they would still hold all of the territory they've lost.

If Ukraine wanted to avoid war, they could have not antagonized Russia and threatened to slaughter thousands of pro-Russian civilians.

Pretty damn simple. But as I've said before, Ukraine was taken over by a combination of deluded imbeciles prostituting themselves to the highest bidder and straight up murderous psychos drunk on their retarded ideology. These people only care about themselves and don't give a fuck at all that they ran their country into the ground and threw countless of their own peoples into the meatgrinder for nothing. And in the end, they will all make out like bandits, retiring in Europe with billions in looted funds between them and not a care in the world. The Ukrainian people got scammed by these criminals, and they were dumb enough to believe it was all for their own benefit.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #28637585 - 01/28/24 03:08 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

chopstick said: The invasion had absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine joining the EU.




Quote:

chopstick said: All Ukraine had to do to avoid the invasion was a) drop NATO ambitions







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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sudly]
    #28637625 - 01/28/24 05:49 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Great post, Chop. Those are the facts.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 3
    #28637634 - 01/28/24 06:17 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

The 'facts' where he just made up some bullshit about 'what would have happened?'
Or the 'facts' where he claims everyone is a hypocrite even though everything he brought up is wildly out of the scope of this thread and nothing anyone has mentioned?

Ya'll might need to be held back a couple grades and re-learn what a fact is.

The fact is Russia started this war. Disprove that and I'll start to listen to the rest of this bullshit.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 2
    #28637636 - 01/28/24 06:33 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.




Actively trying to avoid war doesn't usually include things like initiating invasions of foreign nations.  That would be like saying Bush was actively trying to avoid war by invading Afghanistan.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 2
    #28637643 - 01/28/24 06:43 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:

The main problem was of course NATO. And not just the fact that they wanted to join a hostile military alliance, but also the fact that the Ukrainians wanted to massacre the pro-Russian civilian population of Donbass. Which they absolutely would have done without Russia's intervention

These factors combined put Russia into a position where they had no choice. Well they did have a choice, but to do nothing in this instance would have had so many negative consequences for Russia and for the millions of civilians in the Donbass that it basically wasn't a choice at all...




Thank God we have you around to tell us what would have happened in an alternate universe where Russia didn't invade and cause all the problems that would have come to pass if they hadn't invaded.
:hahthatsrich:


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28637655 - 01/28/24 07:01 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
The fact is Russia started this war. Disprove that and I'll start to listen to the rest of this bullshit.




barely any attempt to disprove that fact has been made.

Lotta water carrying and excuses tho but no real attempt.

Have yet to see anyone answer why Russia lied about massing troops?

Where’s the bio labs?

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28637658 - 01/28/24 07:03 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.




Actively trying to avoid war doesn't usually include things like initiating invasions of foreign nations.


 

Ukraine was threatening a much more powerful nation's national security. They were warned. What do you expect, honestly? Actively trying to avoid war was the stuff that happened before war became inevitable.

Quote:

That would be like saying Bush was actively trying to avoid war by invading Afghanistan.




It's not actually like that at all. The two situations are so incredibly different, I don't know how any serious person could make a comparison.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28637662 - 01/28/24 07:06 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

The justifications were very similar. "We have to fight them over there or we'll have to fight them here" (paraphrasing)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28637861 - 01/28/24 09:47 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Russia will not invade Poland because Poland is armed to the teeth and in NATO. Russia would get smoked. Putin saw Ukraine moving towards the west, and towards NATO membership, and so took the opportunity for a land grab before Ukraine would be under the same protection.




That would make sense, if Putin hadn't actively tried to avoid war, by getting Ukraine to agree not to join NATO.




Actively trying to avoid war doesn't usually include things like initiating invasions of foreign nations.  That would be like saying Bush was actively trying to avoid war by invading Afghanistan.




Putin just revised the Domino Theory by crossing out communists and writing Nazis. Consent manufacturer go brrr


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