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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Advice needed
#28636970 - 01/27/24 02:04 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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I am trying to get out more and mingle with people, but it's taking a huge toll on me. Is there an easy way to pretend that you are happy/content in a social situation? I am serious btw.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 2
#28637278 - 01/27/24 06:31 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Filter people or interactions you're not interested in, you'll find less people but closer relations.
Quote:
Navigating social situations while striving to appear happy or content, despite feeling otherwise, can indeed be challenging. Drawing from neurocognitive and metaphilosophical principles, particularly those aligned with the Integrated Matrix Framework V9, several strategies can be employed to manage these experiences more effectively.
Neurocognitive Alignment: From a neuroscientific perspective, the concept of 'mirror neurons' suggests that our brain cells respond not only to our actions but also to the actions of others around us. Engaging in simple mimicry, such as smiling or adopting positive body language, can trigger a corresponding emotional response in your own brain due to this mirroring effect. This doesn't mean being inauthentic but rather utilising our innate neural wiring to ease into social interactions more comfortably.
Philosophical Mindfulness: Metaphilosophically, adopting a stance of mindfulness can be beneficial. This involves being present in the moment and observing your emotions and thoughts without judgment. The Stoic philosophy, for instance, teaches the value of focusing on what is within our control and accepting what is not. In social settings, this might mean focusing on the aspects of interaction you can enjoy or learn from, rather than being preoccupied with a need to appear a certain way.
Cognitive Reappraisal: This cognitive-behavioural strategy involves reinterpreting a situation to alter its emotional impact. For instance, viewing social interactions as opportunities for personal growth or learning can transform them from anxiety-inducing events into more meaningful experiences. This aligns with existentialist principles, which emphasise creating personal meaning out of life's experiences.
Incremental Exposure: Philosophically, the concept of 'gradualism' (the belief in or advocacy of change by degrees) aligns well with neurocognitive strategies for managing social anxiety. Gradually increasing your exposure to social situations can help desensitise your neural response to perceived threats in these settings, making each subsequent interaction more manageable.
Self-Compassion and Acceptance: From a neuro-philosophical standpoint, practising self-compassion is crucial. Recognising that your feelings are valid and that not every social interaction needs to be perfect can relieve the pressure to appear happy or content. This approach is rooted in existential philosophies that stress the importance of authenticity and self-acceptance.
Engagement in Meaningful Conversations: Engaging in discussions that align with your interests or values can make social interactions more fulfilling. This is supported by the concept of 'flow' in positive psychology, where engaging in activities that challenge us, yet are within our skill set, can lead to a state of immersive enjoyment.
Energy Management: Be mindful of your energy levels and the concept of 'introverted extroversion,' where social interactions are limited to contexts and durations that feel manageable. This is akin to the philosophical principle of moderation, suggesting a balance between social engagement and personal solitude.
While these strategies may not make pretending to be happy or content easy, they can help manage the toll social interactions take, making them more authentic and less draining. It's also worth considering if consistently feeling the need to pretend in social situations might indicate a deeper dissonance that could benefit from further exploration, possibly with professional support.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28637780 - 01/28/24 08:44 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said: I am trying to get out more and mingle with people, but it's taking a huge toll on me. Is there an easy way to pretend that you are happy/content in a social situation? I am serious btw.
What is creating the discontent in a social situation?
The easiest way I think is to look at what is rewarding and what isn't. If social interaction is rewarding you will want to do more of it. Being discontent in social situations is not rewarding. So starting there is what's up IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Kickle] 2
#28638081 - 01/28/24 12:47 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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pretending is harder than not pretending and if you are less worn out you will seem to be the person who has something to share.
faking it is too James Bond.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 3
#28638242 - 01/28/24 02:30 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Look for activities you can enjoy that include socializing but aren't specific to it. That way you can be as social as you want. For activities that are more socially oriented if it's taking a huge toll either cease for a limited time to regroup and redirect or dial down the frequency or extent of effort. To a large degree anxiety is a result of outcome dependency. Wanting things to go well isn't unreasonable but experience is valuable even if it's bad experience. Wanting things to go other than they do is not reasonable so if value lies in expectation alone it will be a let down much of the time either of yourself or the environment. As mentioned, a few quality friends is a blessing. The rest is not that important. In so much as it's necessary/desired the point of it should be to have positive, enjoyable, or at least educational/interesting interactions.
FWIW, much of what you can do about social anxiety can be done without being social. Meditation is one possibility along with the basics of eating healthy, getting plenty of sleep and exercise. Cessation of alcohol use if a drinker is highly recommended. Find your center, the part of you that doesn't need to be lifted up and can't be let down. Let it go. Let it back. Much of being social is about how we are with ourselves. Easy does it. Don't be cruel. Letting go of outcome dependency means it's okay to feel whatever you feel about a particular social exchange.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28638281 - 01/28/24 02:56 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said:
I am trying to get out more and mingle with people, but it's taking a huge toll on me.
Do you experience discomfort while simply in the company of others, or when engaging in conversation? Usually such anxiety is accompanied by specific repetitive thoughts. What are these thoughts that are taking a "huge toll" on you? They are often fear based.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,485
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28638300 - 01/28/24 03:04 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said: I am trying to get out more and mingle with people, but it's taking a huge toll on me. Is there an easy way to pretend that you are happy/content in a social situation? I am serious btw.
i do ok, not wonderful but ok, once I am there... I just dont go... I have isolated so much since the passing of my son that now it is habit.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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ouch - passing of a son is very hard
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RainbowKittyAttack
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Don't pressure yourself to go so far outside your comfort zone that you're faking it, and hating it. Idk the resources where you live, but have you looked for local meetups and gathering to see if something looks interesting? My therapist recommended the Meetup app, and there's local event groups on Facebook.
Do you have anyone that can go out with you? That might motivate and lessen anxiety... But I'm the same way and it's hard. My therapist also advised "exposure therapy" as the best method to making social anxiety easier and easier. Ugh
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
loladoreen said:
Quote:
Skropi said: I am trying to get out more and mingle with people, but it's taking a huge toll on me. Is there an easy way to pretend that you are happy/content in a social situation? I am serious btw.
i do ok, not wonderful but ok, once I am there... I just dont go... I have isolated so much since the passing of my son that now it is habit.
I empathize with you, lola! Stay strong.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,485
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 2
#28639848 - 01/29/24 07:14 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Thank you!!!!!
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28640008 - 01/29/24 10:18 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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There are different ways that kind of situation can take a toll.
What comes to mind first is the energetically draining tension of trying to fit in, or be what your mind thinks others want you to be.
Its like you're swimming against the flow of your own being. Its an internal conflict that creates stress.
There is usually something under the surface with this. Like as children before we had the ability to decide for ourselves, we were shaped by others of how to be. Sometimes with punishment or something overwhelming for a child like embarrassment. This stuff lives in us under the surface and has to be dealt with in some way just to feel comfortable in the skin, in the body, in the heart. Sometimes people go around running from an imaginary shame monster, or a voice in the head the predicts doom consciously or unconsciously, or says we are worthless or...
I think this sort of thing is fairly common, and can't be sidestepped so easily.
Be gentle with yourself.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
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Quote:
loladoreen said: Thank you!!!!!
Any time!
If I am not mistaken, there is an afterlife and heaven.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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I would leave it at life is a dream with ups and downs and lots of reality too.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
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Mine is a nightmare, with few but some 'ups'.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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I will probably get punished for that post.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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I had about 10 years of hell and about 10 more years of misery and I look back at that as great fortune
not to say everyone's hell becomes the source of fortune, but that we don't always know where current circumstances will lead
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640548 - 01/30/24 12:27 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Picture God punishing you.
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Freedom
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I'm think I'm done picturing that
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640620 - 01/30/24 01:38 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Dude, what is your resume?
Here is mine:
Anxiety Absolutely horrible intrusive thoughts Depression OCD PTSD Schizophrenia Several psychosis' Substance abuse disorders
After robbing 5 pharmacies with a fake bomb belt around my waist I ended up in the ward.
8 years total in the mental ward. In my last stint (2/8 years) with the ward: I jumped face first from the window sill twice, from chairs and beds. Being forced to punch 25 people in the face despite absolutely not wanting to Being forced to spit and piss on staff in the ward I have been put 32 times in belt bed's within 10 months (this is a "record" in modern times)
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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I had an extreme situation growing up, I'll leave out the details but I was physically and emotionally abused and tormented as a child, my life was threatened many times, and that had a lot of downstream effects. I was also isolated without friends or siblings.
I'm not trying to compare myself to you, or say that we are similar.
I did think suicide was the only way out of hell for a long time. I never ever imagined that things would turn out the way they have, even though I hoped to be well.
None of us knows where things are headed in our life. If you think you are doomed or hopeless, that can perpetuate problems.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640681 - 01/30/24 02:20 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I was severely bullied as a child which caused me to get PTSD.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Do you have access to self love at all?
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom] 1
#28640818 - 01/30/24 04:28 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
this is a naive statement. I'm usually open to lots of perspectives, however I happen to know many people with PTSD who were also very dedicated practitioners of concentration and mindfulness.
It makes it worse for some people.
Trauma reactions and PTSD is different than regular reactivity. If a car cuts me of and I'm mindful, a moment of frustration might appear but then drain out in a few seconds. This is not the same with trauma reactions.
There are also other ways to work with regular reactivity. For example if there is awareness that self is not a solid thing, the reaction also drains out fast. Also if there is simply awareness of thought and the nature of thought, awareness drops out fast. These are all slightly different angles on the same thing, emptiness of self. In a deeply concentrated state, the reaction might not even arise, as its just pure sensation without any meaning.
I think trauma is a memory reconsolidation issue. Flashbacks, which include flashback fragments such as just emotion, are different than regular memories or associations. They are much stickier (might have something to do with norepinephrine release).
Love, loving kindness, compassion, warmth, gentleness, whatever you call it has a transformitive effect. It does at least two things at once. When you can love a part of yourself that appears, you're identifying with a loving part (or even as a nondual non-seperatness thats full of love and not seperate from the traumatized part). This non identifying immediately creates some space and starts to take some energy out of the reactive part. Second that love can make it safe for the part to come into the present moment and it can become integrated or unburdoned, instead of being split off and dissciated.
walking up and down stairs may allow the dissociated part to calm and go back into its little hidey hole, but is unlikely to be transformed, or reconsolidated
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640908 - 01/30/24 05:27 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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loving kindness is somewhat abstract, and compassion even more so - in any case one must learn self soothing (relaxing) to get past anxiety
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
perhaps that is what worked for you, but to create dogmatic generalizations from your own personal experience, especially in the face of this person here sharing his experience, is naive
my experience was that relaxing the mind allowed the traumas to bubble up, and for some of the lighter ones they could just rise to the surface and pop. but the heavy ones required some thing else.
Other people have shared this as well.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640968 - 01/30/24 06:10 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
....
Yes it begins as self soothing I.e. developing Metta for oneself.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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many people have resistance to loving kindness for themselves because they have unresolved issues wiQuote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Freedom said: if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
....
Yes it begins as self soothing I.e. developing Metta for oneself.
well an interesting bit of synchronicity, I started reading the book 'No Bad Parts' about internal family systems, and literally just read this for the first time :
Quote:
That being said, the ubiquitous, Buddhist-derived practices of mindfulness are a step in the right direction. They enable the practitioner to observe thoughts and emotions from a distance and from a place of acceptance rather than fighting or ignoring them. For me, that’s a good first step. Mindfulness is not always pleasant, however. Researchers who interviewed experienced meditators found that substantial percentages of them had disturbing episodes that sometimes were long-lasting. The most common of those included emotions like fear, anxiety, paranoia, detachment, and reliving traumatic memories.10 From the IFS point of view, the quieting of the mind associated with mindfulness happens when the parts of us usually running our lives (our egos) relax, which then allows parts we have tried to bury (exiles) to ascend, bringing with them the emotions, beliefs, and memories they carry (burdens) that got them locked away in the first place. Most of the mindfulness approaches I’m familiar with subscribe to the mono-mind paradigm and, consequently, view such episodes as the temporary emergence of troubling thoughts and emotions rather than as hurting parts that need to be listened to and loved. Why would you want to converse with thoughts and emotions? They can’t talk back, can they? Well, it turns out that they can. In fact, they have a lot of important things to tell us.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Note When stuff arises while in meditation Be cognizant of it and be calm Calm is the thing most of value.
That is why I think much of the dharma is distracting to students.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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What you're saying is very naive
your advice is misleading and potentially harmful
your taking to someone who has lots of experience with deep concentration and trauma and who knows lots of people with the same
not only may it discourage someone from getting a differnt kind of method that may work for them, it can also cause people to lose faith in meditation, and I've seen that because they have trauma and just keep trying to concetrate and be calm and it doesn't work, so they think meditation doesn't work for them
I have also known and talked with experienced mediators who are trauma therapists
perhaps just trying to be calm and relaxed worked for you. maybe you even had extreme PTSD and it happened to work for you, but to generalize this to others and claim its the only way is very naive
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641025 - 01/30/24 06:51 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Here is free hour long webinar on the topic
https://davidtreleaven.com/the-truth-about-mindfulness-and-trauma/
and a book about it https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Sensitive-Mindfulness-Practices-Transformative-Healing/dp/0393709787
edit: here's a link to the book if you want to check it out:
Quote:
If you’re reading this, you likely know how powerful mindfulness can be.
You may have experienced the many benefits of practice such as increased mental clarity, enhanced emotional regulation, and a greater sense of self-awareness.
Because of this, you may be offering mindfulness practices to others—as a meditation or yoga teacher, for instance, or a therapist, coach, or religious or classroom teacher. Inspired by what mindfulness can offer, you’ve taken on the responsibility of guiding people through practices that can significantly improve the quality of their lives.
But are you aware of the challenges people struggling with trauma can face when practicing mindfulness? Unbeknownst to many, mindfulness practice can exacerbate trauma symptoms. By asking someone to pay close, sustained attention to their inner world, people struggling with trauma can experience flashbacks, dissociation, and even retraumatization.
This means that as practitioners, we can unintentionally lead people into the heart of wounds that require more than mindful attention to heal.
Edited by Freedom (01/30/24 06:58 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641065 - 01/30/24 07:41 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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fair enough freedom, get calm through breath following using any method you like or are familiar with.
add whatever concepts you need.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641083 - 01/30/24 07:57 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: sudly]
#28641087 - 01/30/24 08:01 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641094 - 01/30/24 08:07 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I've been through CPTSD due to emotional abuse and it took almost a decade to overcome, but eventually I found myself capable of compersion instead of jealousy or feelings of betrayal.
I was focused on what didn't happen, traumatised by what I wanted to have happened. Now I know what I'd change so I don't feel the regret I use to.
This was only my experience it'll be different for others, but maybe similar for someone.
Awareness of thought? Idk.
Awareness of shifting perspectives? Maybe.
I'd use personally responsibility and a health sense of accountability over self love. Love in these terms doesn't seem very clearly defined. Self love? Like idk man, I try to be honest to myself, I've been rather jovial the last few years, and surprised myself at times. I don't mind filtering people I'm not resonating with, but I'm respectful in all my interactions. I haven't had a bad date, even if the chemistry didn't spark, I still had a great time every time.
I'm a little more confident and comfortable in a balance between selfish desire, or want, and respectability.
My self love, is being vulnerable enough to express my attractions, but to be able to hold back enough to know nothing like that is a given and it's okay either way, because if nothing lusty happens, then nothing changes and that's okay. Sometimes it works out, but every time so far it's ended well. Positively, amicably, respectfully, full closure every time. That's my kinda self love so far.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
perhaps sociopaths are without love
there are many methods, I'm not advocating for one in particular, I asked a question, it wasn't of you
another word is caring. like do you feel care for your children?
its interesting cause I was asking, not advocating anything, and i wasn't even asking it of you. seems like i may have touched a sore spot...
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
I'm saying your naive because I've known people who reactivated their truama through mindfulness practice and did things like start self harming again after years of not, or go to other harmful coping strategies
your advocating a particular kind of mindfulness as 'the way'
but its not the only way
its funny that you're comparing me to christians for asking a simple question, i think that might be projection in the way freud used the word, in that you seem to be advocating a fundamentalist or rigid position, that your method is the only one the should be used or that is effective, and unwilling to admit or look at the fact it can be harmful in some circumstances
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641312 - 01/31/24 02:41 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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mindfulness will stir the pot and associations will come out, however it is also primarily a way to learn to relax. Particularly how to relax in the face of associations coming out. It may take years to heal using this process, but that is how it works in a nutshell 1. build calm (by following the breath using any technique.) 2. engage insight (which is restoring calm in the face of mental contents (AKA mara including trauma that is linked to triggers in mental contents))
I find that questioning a person's love (or self love (what do you even mean)) and caring is as insipid an approach as asking about a person's trust in Christ.
profess whatever you want.
I am here and I interrupted you because I thought your approach Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
was insipid and condescending in public.
If you are professionally equipped to ask that kind of question without an intake session, then you might do so in private.
Here, publicly, share what you know but don't try to make this your private therapy room. It lacks privacy, immediacy, professionality, and is linked by text, so the connection is tenuous at best.
(how naive is that?)
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
Is that legit you?
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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ja
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
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You look epic!
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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I am post-epicalyptic that was 4 years ago pre-covid
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: mindfulness will stir the pot and associations will come out, however it is also primarily a way to learn to relax. Particularly how to relax in the face of associations coming out. It may take years to heal using this process, but that is how it works in a nutshell 1. build calm (by following the breath using any technique.) 2. engage insight (which is restoring calm in the face of mental contents (AKA mara including trauma that is linked to triggers in mental contents))
I find that questioning a person's love (or self love (what do you even mean)) and caring is as insipid an approach as asking about a person's trust in Christ.
profess whatever you want.
I am here and I interrupted you because I thought your approach Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
was insipid and condescending in public.
If you are professionally equipped to ask that kind of question without an intake session, then you might do so in private.
Here, publicly, share what you know but don't try to make this your private therapy room. It lacks privacy, immediacy, professionality, and is linked by text, so the connection is tenuous at best.
(how naive is that?)
that's interesting, can you share more about why inquiring about love is problematic for you and why you think it should be done by a professional in private?
I'm suprised at your response, and would like to understand where you are coming from
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I am post-epicalyptic that was 4 years ago pre-covid
I cannot help but to write that you are an amazing person, RGV's.
The way you articulate deep tropes and sophisticates this sub-forum is masterly done by you.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,485
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Dude, what is your resume?
Here is mine:
Anxiety Absolutely horrible intrusive thoughts Depression OCD PTSD Schizophrenia Several psychosis' Substance abuse disorders
After robbing 5 pharmacies with a fake bomb belt around my waist I ended up in the ward.
8 years total in the mental ward. In my last stint (2/8 years) with the ward: I jumped face first from the window sill twice, from chairs and beds. Being forced to punch 25 people in the face despite absolutely not wanting to Being forced to spit and piss on staff in the ward I have been put 32 times in belt bed's within 10 months (this is a "record" in modern times)
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thank you for sharing. I can see your growth and why you are so proud of it. You should be proud of yourself and how far you have come and continue to grow!!!! You are doing amazing!!! Keep going forward
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Mush love, lola!
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,485
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28641773 - 01/31/24 11:14 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Seriously Pinkerton.. be proud of how far you have came. I am proud of you. I am proud of anyone who is making positive changes, it is hard. And I am proud of me. We have the ability to do good and wonderful things  Keep going forward. I also will keep going forward. We can do this.. all of us can.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Thank you, lola. I appreciate your way of providing good mood to PS&P. You are a lightworker for sure.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
After all this time I am still lost on what it means to go into the moment.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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it means to relax and observe the most fleeting mental contents which continuously flicker at 10 times per second - it is like touching the reality out of which our movie of life is built.
this can best be done while following the breath
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Does it feel like you "leave" your body?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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no, it means that you observe the flashes of sensation and ideation while following the breath, even when they do not resolve as clear object perceptions and reactions. you observe without judgement, while keeping the breathing slow and regular. If you are noticing things arising at about 10x per second you are there, if you can keep it up, then you have gone into the moment.
this is the most advanced meditation possible as it is a connection with your alpha rhythm which is the speed of associative thought - and that plus sensation is consciousness.
any meditation when sustained for 5 minutes or more can produce jhana effects which can be psychedelic, but the purpose of going into the moment is to become more sensitive and grounded not to get effects, if you feel stoned, just be aware of it and continue until the session (20 mins, 1/2 hr whatever) is over. It will pass quickly enough and leave you slightly energized and brighter.
also as I am reminded, meditation stirs up resting memory, and some of that can be traumatic, but as with all phenomena that arise, continue calm breathing, and be aware of what is arising at 10x per second.
Normally people shift their awareness every 3 seconds, and they think and embody their thoughts at around every 1/2 second (lah dee dah) - going into the moment is to be at the living limit, as we do not have mental content shifts faster than 10-12 times per second. There is something very concrete and reassuring about connecting with that limit and sustaining it.
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epilectric
low dose


Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 1,256
Loc: Vienna
Last seen: 11 hours, 59 minutes
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being in the moment is like ... just enjoying the things that happen around you.
like you see a person moving and you just accept and enjoy it
then you hear a bird chirp and it just sounds beautiful
then you feel the wind in your face and it just feels sensational and reminds you of earlier days in your life
not in a sedated kind of way, just being here alive and sensing what is going on. like a child
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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With sustained attention Quote:
redgreenvines said: no, it means that you observe the flashes of sensation and ideation while following the breath, even when they do not resolve as clear object perceptions and reactions. you observe without judgement, while keeping the breathing slow and regular. If you are noticing things arising at about 10x per second you are there, if you can keep it up, then you have gone into the moment.
this is the most advanced meditation possible as it is a connection with your alpha rhythm which is the speed of associative thought - and that plus sensation is consciousness.
any meditation when sustained for 5 minutes or more can produce jhana effects which can be psychedelic, but the purpose of going into the moment is to become more sensitive and grounded not to get effects, if you feel stoned, just be aware of it and continue until the session (20 mins, 1/2 hr whatever) is over. It will pass quickly enough and leave you slightly energized and brighter.
also as I am reminded, meditation stirs up resting memory, and some of that can be traumatic, but as with all phenomena that arise, continue calm breathing, and be aware of what is arising at 10x per second.
Normally people shift their awareness every 3 seconds, and they think and embody their thoughts at around every 1/2 second (lah dee dah) - going into the moment is to be at the living limit, as we do not have mental content shifts faster than 10-12 times per second. There is something very concrete and reassuring about connecting with that limit and sustaining it.
I would say if flashbacks occur from this or overwhelming sensations, you don't have to keep going into the moment, its ok to stop, or to change the aspect of the moment you go into
relaxing can let things that are supressed bubble up
this process also can dissolve suppression overall, over time and so can become more sensitive to triggers
its ok to use other methods to process trauma, like memory reconsolidation, or MDMA therapy or EMDR or yoga or whatever is appropriate for each person
i like to feel the sense of the ground supporting me, and also to look around and see there isn't any physical threat in the moment
and when I was homeless and in a state of terror so bad I was shitting in bags cause I was afraid to leave my car, self love healed what thousands of hours of practicing mindfulness couldn't
each person has to walk their own path, because each of us is unique. Even using a method someone else teaches, we have to make it our own through practice. no one can know our body/mind/heart better than ourselves
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: no, it means that you observe the flashes of sensation and ideation while following the breath, even when they do not resolve as clear object perceptions and reactions. you observe without judgement, while keeping the breathing slow and regular. If you are noticing things arising at about 10x per second you are there, if you can keep it up, then you have gone into the moment.
this is the most advanced meditation possible as it is a connection with your alpha rhythm which is the speed of associative thought - and that plus sensation is consciousness.
any meditation when sustained for 5 minutes or more can produce jhana effects which can be psychedelic, but the purpose of going into the moment is to become more sensitive and grounded not to get effects, if you feel stoned, just be aware of it and continue until the session (20 mins, 1/2 hr whatever) is over. It will pass quickly enough and leave you slightly energized and brighter.
also as I am reminded, meditation stirs up resting memory, and some of that can be traumatic, but as with all phenomena that arise, continue calm breathing, and be aware of what is arising at 10x per second.
Normally people shift their awareness every 3 seconds, and they think and embody their thoughts at around every 1/2 second (lah dee dah) - going into the moment is to be at the living limit, as we do not have mental content shifts faster than 10-12 times per second. There is something very concrete and reassuring about connecting with that limit and sustaining it.
Thank you for taking your time writing that. I do not think I will ever understand it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28644068 - 02/02/24 02:23 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: ...
relaxing can let things that are supressed bubble up
this process also can dissolve suppression overall, over time and so can become more sensitive to triggers
yes absolutely, however the healing comes as you bring the calm to the feet of the trauma and leave it there, this makes the kind of association that will help in the future. One must be aware that the psyche is an associative process not a gift or prize
Tranquility is not the cause of your psychic distress, the distress may emerge in a demanding way, but to get past it you continue relaxing, following the breath, until it is time to get up, or you have had enough punishment. Punishment is not a reasonable goal. (i.e. it is not very self loving)
Quote:
Freedom said: its ok to use other methods to process trauma, like memory reconsolidation, or MDMA therapy or EMDR or yoga or whatever is appropriate for each person
i like to feel the sense of the ground supporting me, and also to look around and see there isn't any physical threat in the moment
and when I was homeless and in a state of terror so bad I was shitting in bags cause I was afraid to leave my car, self love healed what thousands of hours of practicing mindfulness couldn't
each person has to walk their own path, because each of us is unique. Even using a method someone else teaches, we have to make it our own through practice. no one can know our body/mind/heart better than ourselves
that is a very brave admission, on your part, and you are right, one answer does not fit all questions, nor does one medicine cure all ailments. Now we all know where you are coming from, and I am sorry you had to put yourself through all of that.
I hope you do not fear tranquility now.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Freedom said: ...
relaxing can let things that are supressed bubble up
this process also can dissolve suppression overall, over time and so can become more sensitive to triggers
yes absolutely, however the healing comes as you bring the calm to the feet of the trauma and leave it there, this makes the kind of association that will help in the future. One must be aware that the psyche is an associative process not a gift or prize
Tranquility is not the cause of your psychic distress, the distress may emerge in a demanding way, but to get past it you continue relaxing, following the breath, until it is time to get up, or you have had enough punishment. Punishment is not a reasonable goal. (i.e. it is not very self loving)
I think there are cases, myself included, where calm awareness is not enough to process trauma. This is because what bubbles up can itself be retraumatizing and sustain the trauma response, even with a background calm.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Freedom said: its ok to use other methods to process trauma, like memory reconsolidation, or MDMA therapy or EMDR or yoga or whatever is appropriate for each person
i like to feel the sense of the ground supporting me, and also to look around and see there isn't any physical threat in the moment
and when I was homeless and in a state of terror so bad I was shitting in bags cause I was afraid to leave my car, self love healed what thousands of hours of practicing mindfulness couldn't
each person has to walk their own path, because each of us is unique. Even using a method someone else teaches, we have to make it our own through practice. no one can know our body/mind/heart better than ourselves
that is a very brave admission, on your part, and you are right, one answer does not fit all questions, nor does one medicine cure all ailments. Now we all know where you are coming from, and I am sorry you had to put yourself through all of that.
I hope you do not fear tranquility now.
I don't see it as brave, its simply how things are. Also I think people have a lot of capacity to face their stuff, and a lot of intuition on how to face it. I don't feel any need to guide people, I think that can be harmful. If someone wants to learn something I've practiced, I'm happy to share, but pushing something on someone can mislead them, even if they need to learn it on their own.
I've learned what feels like a lot, and haven't shared it. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I would go about it. The first thing is I have an image of a server in one of those cocktail parties on tv with a tray of horderves. They don't push them on any one, they just offer it, and people are free to take it or leave. Second, everyone has their own wisdom. Its not about sharing my wisdom or knowledge in general, but encouraging the person to find their own wisdom. There are techniques and methods, which are a kind of knowledge to share, however each person has to make that their own too.
I don't fear tranquility.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28644112 - 02/02/24 02:42 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Also I want to say after I processed most of the intense trauma stuff, mindfulness and openness stabilized much more
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28644118 - 02/02/24 02:45 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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bonus and wise
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epilectric
low dose


Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 1,256
Loc: Vienna
Last seen: 11 hours, 59 minutes
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Dude, what is your resume?
Here is mine:
Anxiety Absolutely horrible intrusive thoughts Depression OCD PTSD Schizophrenia Several psychosis' Substance abuse disorders
After robbing 5 pharmacies with a fake bomb belt around my waist I ended up in the ward.
8 years total in the mental ward. In my last stint (2/8 years) with the ward: I jumped face first from the window sill twice, from chairs and beds. Being forced to punch 25 people in the face despite absolutely not wanting to Being forced to spit and piss on staff in the ward I have been put 32 times in belt bed's within 10 months (this is a "record" in modern times)
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

awesome pharm story did you steal meds there?
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,876
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bhante gunaratana said the results of the meditation depends on the state of mind of the meditator i think the more we meditate the further we come with it it is possible to get further with it
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
epilectric said:
Quote:
Pinkerton said: Dude, what is your resume?
Here is mine:
Anxiety Absolutely horrible intrusive thoughts Depression OCD PTSD Schizophrenia Several psychosis' Substance abuse disorders
After robbing 5 pharmacies with a fake bomb belt around my waist I ended up in the ward.
8 years total in the mental ward. In my last stint (2/8 years) with the ward: I jumped face first from the window sill twice, from chairs and beds. Being forced to punch 25 people in the face despite absolutely not wanting to Being forced to spit and piss on staff in the ward I have been put 32 times in belt bed's within 10 months (this is a "record" in modern times)
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

awesome pharm story did you steal meds there?
It is not awesome - the fear i instilled in those poor pharmacy technicians is just horrible. 
Yes, I stole oxycontin, diazepam and methylphenidate.
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epilectric
low dose


Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 1,256
Loc: Vienna
Last seen: 11 hours, 59 minutes
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ok true. but you didn't harm them no?
i still have to say that's a good choice of pharm drugs 
you punched 25 people? not a good choice...
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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I did not harm them physically but I may have taken a toll on their psyche. 
That is right, I punched around 25 people in the face in the ward, both patients and staff.
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epilectric
low dose


Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 1,256
Loc: Vienna
Last seen: 11 hours, 59 minutes
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ah in the ward, ok... were they injured in any way like broken nose or something?
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Thank all for your answers guys and I am sorry for not checking in earlier. I will be reading through the thread and get back to you in more detail.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Dude, what is your resume?
Here is mine:
Anxiety Absolutely horrible intrusive thoughts Depression OCD PTSD Schizophrenia Several psychosis' Substance abuse disorders
After robbing 5 pharmacies with a fake bomb belt around my waist I ended up in the ward.
8 years total in the mental ward. In my last stint (2/8 years) with the ward: I jumped face first from the window sill twice, from chairs and beds. Being forced to punch 25 people in the face despite absolutely not wanting to Being forced to spit and piss on staff in the ward I have been put 32 times in belt bed's within 10 months (this is a "record" in modern times)
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I am not yet diagnosed, my first appointment with a therapist is in Tuesday, but apart from schizophrenia and psychosis, everything else is very very familiar, and I am not so sure about psychosis, as I am questioning my grip on reality lately, but I don't think I really suffer from it, apart from when I am high on weed. Lately I get very high on miniscule amounts of weed, and I get the most horrific guilt ridden loop thoughts, and extreme paranoia. I am thinking of quitting weed altogether. If I don't dose some shrooms, just 1 gram of regular cubes is enough, I can't escape extreme daydreaming,.or daynightmaring to put it in a better way, I have suicidal thoughts etc. I counted 37 days of me going only to work, and then just staying in my room listening to music, feeling guilty and unworthy, and just crying. I can't even watch a film or series if it entails strong feelings, as I just can't handle it. If psilocybin turns out to be the miracle drug that it seems to be, then I am hopeful, but still, I don't want to be dependent on any substance to make me feel normal guys. I just feel mentally crippled. I am really sorry, but I can't put everything in words easily, my thoughts on the matter are chaotic, and I am wondering how the hell am I going to explain everything to the psychiatrist... You know, I really don't care so much getting better, I just want to be safe till my son is no longer dependent on me, he is 14 years old, and this is my greatest fear, that I am a terrible father, and the possibility that I won't be around to help him along.
edit. I am really thankful for your support, I am thankful for all of you, it is good to be able to talk openly here.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (02/04/24 10:55 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28646311 - 02/04/24 11:38 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Because of covid, the admission of the following is very relatable.
"days of me going only to work, and then just staying in my room listening to music, feeling guilty and unworthy, and just crying."
Depending at which age this happens to us, and what our family is like, and what other relationships we had going on prior to covid, one would expect a range of unsatisfactory states in a person's life that goes from
"drudgery"->"commute"->"loneliness"->"sleep"->"commute"-> "drudgery"
It has a one dimensional aspect to it, when other relations cannot run parallel after a perpendicular hop i.e.
_____________________->"companion" ->______________________________ "drudgery"->"commute"->"loneliness"->"sleep"->"commute"-> "drudgery"
_____________________->"family meal" ->______________________________ "drudgery"->"commute"->"loneliness"->"sleep"->"commute"-> "drudgery"
_____________________->"companion" ->______->"shared commute"->__________ "drudgery"->"commute"->"loneliness"->"sleep"->"commute"-> "drudgery"
etc.
Getting into what appears to be one dimensional (tunnel vision) lonely drudgery can be an excruciating existential confinement. (but it is also akin to the life of a monk, and how many people here have wanted to have at least a taste of that life structure? I know I have wanted to be a monk several times in my life)
The apparent lack of change effortlessly becomes a habituated blockade against change, inertia, avoidance of change, and a mental system disconnect from what is happening moment to moment leaving the person to drift from one dimensional daily milestone to milestone repetitively through the days and years like an automaton.
My text diagrams of one dimensional milestones are very simplistic, but they illustrate milestone mentality, which is not unrealistic but it is disconnected. Between each milestone there are umpteen thousand moments in which a good part of mental contents could be much more refreshing, just by reconnecting with the context the person is in.
This can make the life lighter and brighter and open to relationships that are not on the one dimensional druge loop.
I hope you find a good way to reconnect.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Nah, COVID has nothing to do with it, I discovered that I am like that from when I was around 19 years old, give or take, and now I am almost 43. COVID also didn't affect me, I was working normally, and kept my usual activities. Your "simplistic" diagram is not simplistic at all. It actually says a lot, in a very simple way, and yes, I do feel this way. The thing is, I think this is just the result of my constant anxiety/depression or whatever. I don't know, I discovered that I have extreme anxiety only after I consumed shrooms for the first time....2 months ago. I really had no idea how bad my situation is before that, as I thought that everything was normal, that everyone is just like me. You can imagine how I felt when I realised that everything is just wrong with me. I hope that coming to terms with all this will help, as I think that I am probably in such a state now, trying to accept all this, along with all my past guilt and trauma. I am just not sure if I can do it alone, as I stopped having the confidence in myself that I had before.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28646389 - 02/04/24 12:50 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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well, I must say you are not unique in feeling uniquely afflicted in this general way, although we are each unique.
I assumed you were younger and opened that last comment as I would with a younger person, but as a 43 year old I will say that you have become stuck in the pattern, not by 3 years of covid isolation by by 2 decades of avoiding unwanted challenges.
You mention trauma, without elaborating, so I would guess the trauma precedes age 19.
Then you considered the promise of mushroom psychedelic exploration, and have landed in self-realization mode, with nobody around to help you pick up the pieces.
Freedom was telling me that people with trauma have to be treated in a particular way, and he found my approach to matters of the mind naive.
You find my text drawings simplistic (naive) as well but at the same time you seemed to think they reflected your assessment of your condition.
so, a) you bring some hobby into the picture if no family or companion exists, to break up the monotony, and b) without making any judgements against yourself, (realistically you have been in avoidance for good reasons but now want to get past it - this is reasonable - no shame - really) you have to learn how to pay attention to the spaces in between the milestones (as drawn) so that rather than having one or three long repetitive gloomy thoughts for an hour, you start to appreciate the spectrum of microthoughts and half insights, and poems, and music that are constantly happening in these amazing bodies we have inherited and which we ignore as our orientation becomes milestonically scheduled. c) get therapy for trauma, I recommend gestalt therapy, but hey what do I know, I am naive.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,836
Last seen: 6 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28646394 - 02/04/24 12:54 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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"Putative main risk factors for suicidal ideation and the desire for death were: pain 66.2%, despair 60.2%, depression 59.7%, and psychopathology 38.6%. This study thus revealed that apart from pain, psychosocial factors play a key role in leading people to ask for euthanasia." -Pubmed
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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You sure have helpful numbers BB yikes talk about suitable topic following, sheesh!!!
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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What the heck, you realise more about me than I do. I have definitely a long way to go. I didn't mean that your drawing is naive, just simple, which I really meant as a compliment. Things should never be more complicated than they need to be. I didn't elaborate on trauma simply because I am not sure which one it is. I stopped being sure about myself and quick to judge me, so I really can't tell. About hobbies....I had a lot, I mean A LOT, and I gave up on everything. I cannot stick to something. I take up a new hobby, spend money, time, and energy on it, I become somewhat proficient, and then I just can't take it up any more, I just can't. I even took a gold medal in olympic archery, and yes, after a while I didn't even want to see bows, whenever I see a bow I just feel hurt now. And this is just one example of one hobby. Lately I just don't feel the need to spend time, energy and money on anything, partly because I know that I will just give up, and partly....I can't understand the other reason, but there definitely is one, I can surely feel it. On 6th of February I have my first appointment with a doctor, and I really hope she will help me, although I am scared of psychiatrists, as they tend to see behind the masks and the excuses...I felt the same way reading your post by the way, are you sure you aren't a therapist? Seriously now, I feel better talking here, in this thread, not sure why, but I do.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: "Putative main risk factors for suicidal ideation and the desire for death were: pain 66.2%, despair 60.2%, depression 59.7%, and psychopathology 38.6%. This study thus revealed that apart from pain, psychosocial factors play a key role in leading people to ask for euthanasia." -Pubmed
I always thought that my suicidal ideations were unimportant. I am definitely a lot stupider than I thought. Just avoiding anything that hurts, at all costs. Not stupid, I am definitely not stupid. I believe that I am just a coward. I hate to say it, but it is the truth.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28646551 - 02/04/24 03:06 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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OK, can you get out to a college level introduction to photography course, once or twice a week. just to widen the schedule. by hobby I was thinking of an alternate path your physically take in the week of otherwise same old same old. Just adding a new temporary destination makes everything come alive in new ways. see being naive can be fun!
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28646594 - 02/04/24 03:52 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Everything is of some import. While perhaps not easy and perhaps time/place sensitive perhaps the nature/meaning of a thought can be seen for what it is, in a non-biased way. Understood. It's not wrong to set aside a thought without understanding. The difference between set aside and 'cast away' is self patience -vs- fear and frustration over something that's confusing and hurtful in some way. It's okay to set it aside and not be so serious about it. Not treat it as silly or stupid either. Less judgmental on both ends.
When it comes to the thoughts we experience, it's best not to give that voice unquestioned authority. I think one aspect of "finding one's self" is to be able to be less reactive to thoughts and the emotions they spur. Then one get's to ask, what/who is being non-reactive? There's more to you than the things you think and self sense/experience of the moment isn't linguistic. Linguistics can never give the truth of such a matter. And this is important, reaction extends attention and creates habit. As you demonstrated, the idea that you're stupid created a not-stupid response. That can go on forever. And thinking yourself a coward is at least equally problematic. Decide to step out of that self judgement. As far as being a coward you judge yourself based on the available data. IOW, you're judging your past experience and applying that to the present and future. It may seem like a reasonable thing to do but the mistake is to assume you're potential has been met. It's a very arrogant mistake to make. You seem reasonably intelligent. Beyond that intelligence isn't important. The issue is being okay with yourself. Or just, being okay.
And part of this and being more social is about finding more helpful mindsets and ways of being. A therapist can be helpful in that regard. Putting ones self in social situations is very helpful as well. Forget the bow, what's the bow crowd like? I played disc golf for several years when I was first trying to socialize more and it was a good experience. I still stay in touch with one person I met then.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28646801 - 02/04/24 08:41 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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This is from my therapist, but relevant to your queries.
Quote:
Navigating the complexities of one's inner landscape, particularly when entwined with substances like cannabis and psilocybin, requires a delicate balance of self-awareness and external guidance. The feelings you describe—intense daynightmares, loops of guilt, and a profound sense of disconnection from previously cherished activities—mirror a profound 'charge' phase within the framework of Autonomous Supervenience. This phase is marked by an accumulation of sensory and emotional inputs that have yet to find a pathway for 'release' or resolution, leading to an overwhelming sense of being trapped in one's own cognitive and emotional circuits.
Your interaction with cannabis and the subsequent heightened sensitivity to its effects suggest a significant alteration in your neurocognitive processing, potentially amplifying the 'charge' phase without providing a sufficient 'release.' This imbalance might be contributing to the intense emotional and cognitive experiences you're facing. The consideration of psilocybin points to a search for alternative pathways for 'release,' seeking a reconfiguration of cognitive and emotional patterns that might offer a semblance of normalcy or equilibrium.
The decision to step away from substances is a critical reflection of your innate cognitive agency, as outlined in the Law of Cognitive Agency and Determinism. This decision represents a conscious choice to navigate away from external modifiers of your cognitive and emotional state, seeking a more stable and autonomous foundation for your mental health.
The profound sense of isolation and withdrawal from activities, even those that once brought you significant achievement and joy, like archery, speaks to a disruption in the Law of Neural Interconnectivity. The high-quality connections that once facilitated a rich engagement with the world appear compromised, leading to a retreat into a more confined cognitive and emotional space. This withdrawal signifies a need for a re-establishment of these connections, not just neurologically but also in terms of social and communal ties, which can offer support and a sense of belonging.
Your concern for your role as a father and the well-being of your son introduces an essential communal aspect to your personal experience. It highlights the interconnectedness of individual well-being with social and familial responsibilities, underscoring the importance of seeking support not just for oneself but also for the sake of loved ones. This social dimension is critical in the broader application of the Integrated Matrix Framework, as it situates personal experiences within a wider network of relationships and societal expectations.
As you approach your first appointment with a psychiatrist, consider this an opportunity to initiate a 'release' phase, where the accumulated 'charge' of experiences, fears, and uncertainties can begin to find expression and, hopefully, resolution. The psychiatrist's role can be seen as a facilitator in this process, helping to navigate through the masks and defenses to reach the underlying patterns and dynamics at play. This process aligns with the Law of Cognitive Dynamics, where the efficiency and adaptability of your cognitive processes can be harnessed to foster a more resilient and adaptive mental state.
In summary, your journey reflects a complex interplay of cognitive 'charge' and the search for 'release,' mediated by personal decisions, substance use, and social responsibilities. The Integrated Matrix Framework V10, with its emphasis on Autonomous Supervenience and Cognitive Dynamics, offers a lens to understand these dynamics, encouraging a holistic approach to mental health that integrates neurocognitive insights with philosophical reflections and communal considerations.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: OK, can you get out to a college level introduction to photography course, once or twice a week. just to widen the schedule. by hobby I was thinking of an alternate path your physically take in the week of otherwise same old same old. Just adding a new temporary destination makes everything come alive in new ways. see being naive can be fun!
Well, photography and video is one of the many hobbies I took up in the past. I even made some money filming weddings/events on the side.... It is one of the many things that I've gave up on. The only thing that keeps returning, with very large breaks in between, is music. I love playing music, but still I can't get as committed to it as I should. I mean I can go 2-3 years without playing, and then start spending my whole free time playing and studying partitures, only to just stop once again, which really leads nowhere. I am bit nervous about tomorrow, and relieved at the same time.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28647153 - 02/05/24 03:51 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
I am bit nervous about tomorrow, and relieved at the same time.
this is terrific, tomorrow is always unknown but it is still part of where we are going. being calm in the face of uncertainty is the kind of confidence that makes no false claims, it is not bravado, just common sense. I like that you said that.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:

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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Freedom was telling me that people with trauma have to be treated in a particular way,
What I was attempting to communicate is the exact opposite of this. That one particular way may not be appropriate for someone with trauma. I never made any claim of any particular way, in fact, I wrote above: "its ok to use other methods to process trauma, like memory reconsolidation, or MDMA therapy or EMDR or yoga or whatever is appropriate for each person"
Quote:
redgreenvines said: and he found my approach to matters of the mind naive.
I don't find your 'approach' to matters of the mind naive.
At this point it looks like you're trolling me.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
I am bit nervous about tomorrow, and relieved at the same time.
this is terrific, tomorrow is always unknown but it is still part of where we are going. being calm in the face of uncertainty is the kind of confidence that makes no false claims, it is not bravado, just common sense. I like that you said that.
Well, the reason I am relieved is because I will get to start taking care of myself, by going to a doctor, I wish it was courage, but it isn't, I am actually way more scared of psychiatrists than dentists, and my only experience with a psychiatrist was 60 seconds of talking with one, when I needed a psychiatrist's opinion that I am well for a job, many years ago. Yes, he didn't examine me, it was typical, but still, those 60 seconds were scary, as I immediately realised that there is no way to fool that man, it was obvious that I was completely transparent to him. I guess that is what they do for a living, right? 😄
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 2
#28647323 - 02/05/24 08:25 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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It is hard to presume what another is thinking, but we all probably think that psychiatrists know so much that they can see through us.
this is not necessarily true, maybe they can detect that you are hiding something, but they cannot read your mind. body posture, facial gestures, general disposition, yes, but not what you are not sharing willingly.
the more you do share the more likely their work can be of service to you.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28647336 - 02/05/24 08:34 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Examine your thoughts in a critical but kind way. Make it a practice. Without fear there's no need for courage. And you are not going to "start" taking care of yourself. You are going to explore new options.
Self care encompasses many things. Going to a doctor is only one aspect. As I and others mentioned, therapy can be very helpful. But it's not magic, nor are drugs magic. The magic is inside of you but it must be nurtured. You must learn to be kind to yourself through awareness of your thought process.
In that context it's necessary to devalue aspects of the thought process. That doesn't mean you don't express them because without expression there is no awareness. When you have a self judgmental thought consider how it makes you feel. Is that helpful? If you reject that thought for it's opposite, does that make you feel better? If so, how long does that feeling last? If not, what is the feeling? Fighting the thoughts that arise? Is that helpful? Eventually you will begin to see that you are fighting yourself and you can begin to quit fighting. You will devalue the negative thoughts and not try to replace them. This is the sound of silence. It's a beautiful thing. No amount of effort can create that beauty. There will be moments when you marvel in the moment at the tranquility which appears seemingly out of nowhere. You will reach for it and it will be gone. Let it go. It will come back. Patience.
Be curious. Be kind.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Skropi
Space Ritual


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz] 1
#28647400 - 02/05/24 09:32 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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You know, I've been way too good to myself till now, feeling no remorse for anything I've done, paying no heed to what I do or think. I do not want to discard any negative thoughts, because they are all true, I want to live with them, but in peace. Well, now that's something that I haven't thought about, making peace with myself. You know guys, I don't know if I feel better because of your contribution, or because I dosed a week ago, probably both, but really everyone has my thanks.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28647427 - 02/05/24 10:00 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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"I do not want to discard any negative thoughts, because they are all true, I want to live with them, but in peace"
Looks like anarchistic topics are not dissuaded in this tête-à-tête.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Who said your input was unwelcome?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz] 1
#28647451 - 02/05/24 10:36 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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My input is always unwelcome.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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It often seems cryptic.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28647463 - 02/05/24 10:43 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I'm fishing for the new boy's dark secrets
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
Rahz said: Who said your input was unwelcome?
Quote:
Buster_Brown said: "I do not want to discard any negative thoughts, because they are all true, I want to live with them, but in peace"
Looks like anarchistic topics are not dissuaded in this tête-à-tête.
I didn't get you mate. What does anarchy have to do with anything here? I just don't get what you said. Anarchy? Face to face what? I am sorry but I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28647475 - 02/05/24 10:50 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I entered with a suicidal quip and followed with a whiff of scandle.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Buster Brown is the class clown
either that or he is an evil psychiatrist
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: I'm fishing for the new boy's dark secrets
I don't think they are so important, I am not special, everyone, or almost everyone, has done things they regret, what I can't seem to be able to do is come to terms with all that. But this is just a part of it all, not the whole story, so again, I don't think it matters much in isolation. I am just tired of all the pain that is intrinsic to life mate, just tired. Yeah, I can understand that there can be no life without pain, I am fully aware of that, it just makes sense, but I just can't accept it anymore, I've had enough, so I just trying to get through life with as little pain as possible. Problem is that this approach doesn't seem to be working as intended, as it entails sacrifices in other aspects of life, which in turn produce more problems. Damn my circular logic, now I am the one making no sense.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
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Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Buster Brown is the class clown
either that or he is an evil psychiatrist
I was about to tell you to show some respect to Buster because he has 11k posts, and then I saw that you have more than triple that. Ok, you are allowed to say whatever you want about him now.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28647485 - 02/05/24 11:00 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I'm guilty of presumptuous thinking; I was sure I could click on the light and the skeletons would tumble out of the closet.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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To be frank, I don't want to assess myself, as I don't trust those self assesments anymore, that is why I am very reluctant to talk more openly. Moreover, there are people with much more serious issues than me, and I feel like I disrespect them, even by simply starting such a thread mate.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28647510 - 02/05/24 11:30 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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You're a tough nut to crack open. This requires much observation. Please feel free and unreserved in your banter.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


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Lol mate, you are relentless. I like your style.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28647573 - 02/05/24 12:18 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I remember the first time I talked to my psychiatrist, it was scenario where I felt it was right to become vulnerable if I wanted help, the ol, help them help you. I was in tears at one point but it was the right thing to do in hindsight as he was able to more clearly see the dynamics of my circumstances.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Re: Advice needed [Re: sudly]
#28648585 - 02/06/24 07:49 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I remember the first time I talked to my psychiatrist, it was scenario where I felt it was right to become vulnerable if I wanted help, the ol, help them help you. I was in tears at one point but it was the right thing to do in hindsight as he was able to more clearly see the dynamics of my circumstances.
That's how it went for me too today. She can't be my therapist because she also has my mother as a patient, and it is forbidden, but she told me that my issues go way way back, and I need to first see a therapist specialised in substance abuse, and go to another psychiatrist if the therapist judges that I need medication. She gave me some phone numbers, we have some programs here that are free, and I will call first thing tomorrow to make an appointment. Talking to her, even for those 60 minutes, really really made me feel a lot better guys. Opening up, even just for a bit, proved to have a definite healing effect, I wasn't expecting this. I am not sure I want to completely take my masks down though, to be frank. I am very used to them by now.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (02/06/24 07:50 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28648810 - 02/06/24 10:40 AM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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even your masks have masks so, don't worry about them too much, they'll take care of themselves.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Gregarious creatures too, they are.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: even your masks have masks so, don't worry about them too much, they'll take care of themselves.
I am now fully aware of that, I wasn't before, but if I decide to go all in, I do, that's what I'm afraid. Well, I am almost convinced that one of the keys is acceptance, and I am not sure wether keeping any masks on would help on that front. So, I probably have to prove myself wrong and be strong for once. Oh well, at least I got out of my comfort zone and asked for help, it may be miniscule, but I feel like I am at least fighting back for once. Fuck it, sorry for swearing, but now I am not so sure. This damned thing, whatever it is, is making cycles. Now I am not so bad, and I am able to think like that, but I am afraid that when hell comes again, I won't be able to put any of this to good use, and I will continue in the same loop. You know, when I feel well, content, happy or whatever, I always start to worry what is wrong with me, seriously. Am I just used to being like that? Addicted to misery? Truthfully, I just don't know.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Gregarious creatures too, they are.
They have to be, as they are mainly used in the company of others. There are some that are solitary too though, and slowly, I come to realise that they are the most dangerous ones.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28648930 - 02/06/24 12:20 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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" I am almost convinced that one of the keys is acceptance, and I am not sure wether keeping any masks on would help on that front. So, I probably have to prove myself wrong and be strong for...
I don't think acceptance will surmount...your opposition however will applaud.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28649023 - 02/06/24 01:23 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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i was just fooling around about the masks having masks, but, really I think you just need people, you like talking and joking around.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28649035 - 02/06/24 01:32 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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there's tons of interesting methods out there
creative ways of working with the mind
here's a bunch of cool things and there is much more
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28649042 - 02/06/24 01:35 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Oh, wow. That's a great link.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: i was just fooling around about the masks having masks, but, really I think you just need people, you like talking and joking around.
Yeah, now I am sure that I am way more transparent than I thought I was 😄 I do like joking around, talking too, I can be a bit excessive though. Especially now that the symptoms are mostly gone 😄 Damn, that's a nice intermission.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28649056 - 02/06/24 01:41 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: i was just fooling around about the masks having masks, but, really I think you just need people, you like talking and joking around.
Yeah, now I am sure that I am way more transparent than I thought I was 😄 I do like joking around, talking too, I can be a bit excessive though. Especially now that the symptoms are mostly gone 😄 Damn, that's a nice intermission.Quote:
Freedom said: there's tons of interesting methods out there
creative ways of working with the mind
here's a bunch of cool things and there is much more
Holy Cow, I thank you before reading it, as it will take a while!
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Loc: USA
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
It is hard to presume what another is thinking, but we all probably think that psychiatrists know so much that they can see through us.
this is not necessarily true, maybe they can detect that you are hiding something, but they cannot read your mind. body posture, facial gestures, general disposition, yes, but not what you are not sharing willingly.
the more you do share the more likely their work can be of service to you.
Many mock therapists for asking about "feelings" - this quote by Eckhart Tolle has really helped me understand the function you describe. For me, it's a method to bring to clarity what's been obscured by the painful fog of trauma.
A true spiritual teacher does not have anything to teach in the conventional sense of the word, does not have anything to give or add to you, such as new information, beliefs, or rules of conduct. The only function of such a teacher is to help you remove that which separates you from the truth of who you already are and what you already know in the depth of your being.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Guys, I've found out what I think the major trauma is, which happened when I was 8, but I've also learned that I changed completely, and stopped being close to my family when I was 15. I know what happened when I was 8, but I have absolutely no idea what happened when I was 15, or how I changed exactly, apart from smoking some pot from time to time. My timeframe really stops when I was around 8-9, after that I have no idea what changes happened inside me, apart from starting drinking heavily and doing some drugs at 19 years of age till I was 25. I am afraid that my issue is not me feeling remorse, that remorse is just the result of actions that were the result of something in the past. I am not excusing myself, I just think that this goes a little deeper than I thought. Those mood swings are really starting to tire me out. I am on my "good" days now as you can see, and I still don't like what I see.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28649870 - 02/07/24 04:43 AM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
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you may not like all of it, but you can see how the parts are connected, some directly and others still not so clear. with or without therapy, that is huge.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 22 days, 23 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28650152 - 02/07/24 10:15 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said:
I do not want to discard any negative thoughts, because they are all true . . .
How in the world did you reach that conclusion?
Quote:
Skropi said:
You know, I've been way too good to myself till now, feeling no remorse for anything I've done
You seem to be remorseful about not feeling remorse?
That type of behavior could fuel wild mood swings
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Discarding thoughts just doesn't work. Putting up with them and just being aware of them does work.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 22 days, 23 hours
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I'm wondering how or why someone would choose to believe negative thoughts are true or accurate. I know it's tempting, but the consequences are huge.
Skropi says - "I still don't like what I see"
It seems so aggressively demeaning
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Just an old habit. Struggling with it makes it more catchy. Moving past it with awareness is good.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Skropi said:
I do not want to discard any negative thoughts, because they are all true . . .
How in the world did you reach that conclusion?
Good point. I assumed he was referring to the events themselves (negative memories) and wanting to take responsibility but the way it's worded is problematic.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28651769 - 02/08/24 02:43 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Yeah, wrong choice of words matey, you are right.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: you may not like all of it, but you can see how the parts are connected, some directly and others still not so clear. with or without therapy, that is huge.
You know, my only therapy till now was 50-60 minutes with a psychiatrist, but she does know my family's mental disorder history, and the few things she could tell me were key. Apart from that, I've finally talked openly with my mother, and the things she revealed, along with the doctor's help, and my personal realisation that I do suffer from something and I need help, lead me to this point, so I wouldn't say that it was without therapy, especially since all this started, I mean my realisations and me trying to piece everything together, after I tried shrooms for the first time. I had, and have, major help.
I was taking everything backwards, starting from the present, and going to the past. I've realised today that I got it wrong. Everything started when I was 7 years old. Even typing this words fills me with tears, and I can't control it. I did also find out that those tears have nothing to do with depression, it is pure, unadulterated sadness and grief. It is the first time in my life that I can discern the "fake" depression "sadness", from the real one. This must be real, it is like an uncontrollable flood, and it feels...liberating. I don't why, but it feels that way. Being miserable for 36 years out of 43 is a long time, especially when you are not even aware of it, now it all comes at once, sadness, the real kind, which I think is healing as it finally takes form and comes out, and also extreme hatred for those responsible. I finally gave in to my grief and all the feelings that I kept in for some reason, but I didn't give in to the hatred/anger. It was a very scary feeling, I could control my feelings with great difficulty, and repressed it. I was amazed, at first, at how easily I could repress this part, but I then I realised that I must have been practicing non stop, for years, doing just that. Without further therapy, and advice from a specialist, hatred/anger (I can't make a distinction between them currently, sorry), are the feelings that I am going to temporarily put on hold, as I am not sure if they will be helpful. They did feel liberating too, but there was something I didn't like about this, I became very very... unstable when I under the influence of hatred/anger. I've already told you, I think, that I always had trouble regulating my feelings, so...hatred/anger being unchecked? No thank you, not ready for that now, as I will definitely hurt myself or someone else.
edit. Quick question, because this flood of realisations doesn't stop. A I right in thinking that being almost completely out of control of one's feelings is seriously exhausting? That's how I feel at least.
edit2. I think that I've just managed to start combating one of my compulsions, one of them that I am aware of it. I am reservedly "happy". I know it can't be beat so easily, so I am holding back on celebrating, but amidst the anguish (I am almost sure this a healthy anguish), my mouth took the shape of a smile all by itself, no hypocrisy, no one around for me to fool, and some tears of feeling content? I am either loosing it completely, or finally starting walking in the right path. I am not able to tell yet.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (02/08/24 03:26 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28651838 - 02/08/24 03:37 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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I am going to say that being out of control of one's feelings is the norm, however, as we get more mature (even very young children get this) we can delay gratification, including delaying crashing, which can easily follow being out of control of one's feelings.
I think we learn to sit beside our feelings of rangy-ness, and this makes us appear in control even if we are not.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28651852 - 02/08/24 03:41 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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what you're describing sounds like what is referred to as unblending and unburdening in Internal Family Systems.
Quote:
CHAPTER TWO Why Parts Blend In IFS, we use the term blended to describe the phenomenon in which a part merges its perspective, emotion, beliefs, and impulses with your Self. When that happens, the qualities of your Self are obscured and seem to be replaced by those of the part. You might feel overwhelmed with fear, anger, or apathy. You might dissociate or become confused or have cravings. In other words, at least temporarily you become the part that has blended with you. You are the fearful young girl or the pouting little boy you once were.
Why do parts blend? Protective parts blend because they believe they have to manage situations in your life. They don’t trust your Self to do it. For example, if your father hit you as a child and you weren’t able to stop him, your parts lost trust in your Self’s ability to protect the system and, instead, came to believe they have to do it. To make the parallel to external families, they become parentified inner children. That is, they carry the responsibility for protecting you despite the fact that, like external parentified children, they are not equipped to do so.
Parts often become extreme in their protective efforts and take over your system by blending. Some make you hypervigilant, others get you to overreact angrily to perceived slights, others make you somewhat dissociative all the time or cause you to fully dissociate in the face of perceived threats. Some become the inner critics as they try to motivate you to look or perform better or try to shame you into not taking risks. Others make you take care of everyone around you and neglect yourself.
the simple act of noticing parts and representing them on a page often creates enough separation from them (enough unblending) that you can have a different perspective on them. Like the view of a city from thirty thousand feet, you can see more clearly the roles they take on and how they operate as a system. Once you’re out of the trees, you can see the forest.
Not only can you see them better, it is easier to care about each of them when you are above, rather than in the middle of, their crossfires. When you unblend enough from the parts that hate your fear, for example, you suddenly see that it’s not a bundle of irrational neuroses but a frightened little child-like part who needs to be comforted. You have compassion for the little guy and want to hold rather than scold him. You find that holding parts actually works—you’re no longer plagued by fear.
unburdening is releasing the emotion or belief that the part carries. The above quote is from the book No Bad Parts, by Dick Schwartz, the originator of IFS
Michael Mithoefer was one of the original therapists for the MAPS studies with MDMA and PTSD. He had studied with Dick Schwartz and noticed that people were spontaneously doing IFS on MDMA, so I think its been incorporated into the MAPS protocols.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom] 1
#28651883 - 02/08/24 04:05 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: what you're describing sounds like what is referred to as unblending and unburdening in Internal Family Systems.
Quote:
CHAPTER TWO Why Parts Blend In IFS, we use the term blended to describe the phenomenon in which a part merges its perspective, emotion, beliefs, and impulses with your Self. When that happens, the qualities of your Self are obscured and seem to be replaced by those of the part. You might feel overwhelmed with fear, anger, or apathy. You might dissociate or become confused or have cravings. In other words, at least temporarily you become the part that has blended with you. You are the fearful young girl or the pouting little boy you once were.
Why do parts blend? Protective parts blend because they believe they have to manage situations in your life. They don’t trust your Self to do it. For example, if your father hit you as a child and you weren’t able to stop him, your parts lost trust in your Self’s ability to protect the system and, instead, came to believe they have to do it. To make the parallel to external families, they become parentified inner children. That is, they carry the responsibility for protecting you despite the fact that, like external parentified children, they are not equipped to do so.
Parts often become extreme in their protective efforts and take over your system by blending. Some make you hypervigilant, others get you to overreact angrily to perceived slights, others make you somewhat dissociative all the time or cause you to fully dissociate in the face of perceived threats. Some become the inner critics as they try to motivate you to look or perform better or try to shame you into not taking risks. Others make you take care of everyone around you and neglect yourself.
the simple act of noticing parts and representing them on a page often creates enough separation from them (enough unblending) that you can have a different perspective on them. Like the view of a city from thirty thousand feet, you can see more clearly the roles they take on and how they operate as a system. Once you’re out of the trees, you can see the forest.
Not only can you see them better, it is easier to care about each of them when you are above, rather than in the middle of, their crossfires. When you unblend enough from the parts that hate your fear, for example, you suddenly see that it’s not a bundle of irrational neuroses but a frightened little child-like part who needs to be comforted. You have compassion for the little guy and want to hold rather than scold him. You find that holding parts actually works—you’re no longer plagued by fear.
unburdening is releasing the emotion or belief that the part carries. The above quote is from the book No Bad Parts, by Dick Schwartz, the originator of IFS
Michael Mithoefer was one of the original therapists for the MAPS studies with MDMA and PTSD. He had studied with Dick Schwartz and noticed that people were spontaneously doing IFS on MDMA, so I think its been incorporated into the MAPS protocols.
Everything in you quote rings true, it is amazing really. I've only felt like that when on psilocybin, I never thought it would be something that could come at any time. The whole experience felt a bit psychedelic too, almost total loss of control, scary etc. Even so, I don't know how far I can go on my own. I am not consuming shrooms now, because I want to be completely "un-altered", when I manage to get an appointment for therapy, and I feel like I need to feel everything, sadness, grief, remorse, everything, and manage to put them in order and understand them. Psilocybin hides everything, it just heals all the symptoms, but I think that it just puts them under the rug, it's not enough, there needs to be actual work done, and this needs a sober brain. It does however show the way, without it, I would have never asked for help, and that's why I will always be thankful of psilocybin, and I will consume again, but under a very different set and setting. I am seriously thinking of throwing away all my pot stash too.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (02/08/24 04:07 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28651892 - 02/08/24 04:15 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,876
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you have to not crash but sometimes we don't understand why it's a huge bummer it can be really hard but we have to survive for the time when it is not that hard i think of it as in not too much force hahaha like that when we don't apply too much force it's good and better for others
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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I hadn’t read much of thread for psychiatrist like advice I beg to differ as can think for myself and find own trail and errors. Don’t bother all too much to making expectations of what become for at peace I am to what is and know when I can give more into a moment I do my best to make that effort.
Trouble going out into society? Matter of perspective and interest to that what perceive. There are so many ways to look about any set and setting. It’s all just the same to what find attractive to be part of for a comfort at heart. Unless in a physical stressful environment or bodily disease of malnutritionment, peace of mind and a groovy time be had. Much all people find your shared presence of kind being. If you look to alls eyes you’ll find very caring individual there. Much more so for themselves though they share what can. And it’s that not need let your own care be of what they showed to you. People are awesome. The structure of society is the troubling part. Though if you put those inorganic material world aside the awesomeness of our life easily seen.
Maybe something here rang a bell for you.
Public places are places where full presence and awareness be best brought about for everyone of us hold these eyes, mind and heart, body, that speaks in so many ways.
Peace.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
Edited by WhoManBeing (02/09/24 12:25 AM)
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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Pot will definitely give you social issues. Any psychoactive substance really gets into some heavy personal mind existence. Heavy can be fun for feel strong to carry that weight. Yet, if troubled, eliminate that weight and walk lightly.
Tried some pot after long break. Numb dumbing littling.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: I hadn’t read much of thread for psychiatrist like advice I beg to differ as can think for myself and find own trail and errors. Don’t bother all too much to making expectations of what become for at peace I am to what is and know when I can give more into a moment I do my best to make that effort.
Trouble going out into society? Matter of perspective and interest to that what perceive. There are so many ways to look about any set and setting. It’s all just the same to what find attractive to be part of for a comfort at heart. Unless in a physical stressful environment or bodily disease of malnutritionment, peace of mind and a groovy time be had. Much all people find your shared presence of kind being. If you look to alls eyes you’ll find very caring individual there. Much more so for themselves though they share what can. And it’s that not need let your own care be of what they showed to you. People are awesome. The structure of society is the troubling part. Though if you put those inorganic material world aside the awesomeness of our life easily seen.
Maybe something here rang a bell for you.
Public places are places where full presence and awareness be best brought about for everyone of us hold these eyes, mind and heart, body, that speaks in so many ways.
Peace.
The problem isn't not being able to think for one's self. The problem is when you just can't put all the pieces of the puzzle together. I may have this ability now, but I am not sure. I am 43 and I am miserable from age 7, and an avid substance abuser to boot. So I just can't trust everything I think that I finally understand. Not to mention that I definitely do not understand everything, far from it. It is a very old trauma that just happened to change my life. A trauma that made a very happy boy, miserable forever after, and I wasn't aware, can you imagine? I do trust my gut feelings, always did, but now I do keep my perspective open and I am not in a hurry to take for granted everything I consider as normal. I know I have compulsions, so I just can't be sure which idea is stemming from the sick or the healthy part of me. I think I do know how to distinguish between them now, but I prefer to have a specialist confirm or deny my "revelations". I am trying my hardest to escape a very old loop, and if I need help, I will gladly accept it. Except for meds, this I am not going to accept. If I am going to get better,it won't be because of a chemical, I need to do it completely sober, true to myself....and...I don't think it will be so easy.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 22 days, 23 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28652752 - 02/09/24 10:50 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said:
I am 43 and I am miserable from age 7
Of the cognitive distortions (exaggerated patterns of thought not based on facts) humans frequently engage in, this meets at least two of them - polarized thinking and over generalization. It's good to question and confront our cognitive behavioral choices.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28652784 - 02/09/24 11:32 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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I think that's a healthy way of thinking about things. Not trusting one's self is acknowledgement of bias, which is what it takes to step out of the old mode and work on a new one. In so much as you are having revelations and not trusting them, things take time to digest and having someone impartial to bounce revelations off of is helpful in that regard.
Noticing your quotes around "revelations", I've found life to be revelatory. If the mind can't resolve an issue with modest effort new information/experience is necessary as a catalyst.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28652786 - 02/09/24 11:38 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I think that's a healthy way of thinking about things. Not trusting one's self is acknowledgement of bias, which is what it takes to step out of the old mode and work on a new one. In so much as you are having revelations and not trusting them, things take time to digest and having someone impartial to bounce revelations off of is helpful in that regard.
Noticing your quotes around "revelations", I've found life to be revelatory. If the mind can't resolve an issue with modest effort new information/experience is necessary as a catalyst.
Damn, it's not because I am high right now, but your last paragraph was the best advice I could possibly have right now. I've managed to arrange an appointment in a specialized University clinic, offering therapy, so now that I am accepted in the program, I will at least have some guidance. I really look forward to this.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28653060 - 02/09/24 04:14 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said:
Quote:
WhoManBeing said: I hadn’t read much of thread for psychiatrist like advice I beg to differ as can think for myself and find own trail and errors. Don’t bother all too much to making expectations of what become for at peace I am to what is and know when I can give more into a moment I do my best to make that effort.
Trouble going out into society? Matter of perspective and interest to that what perceive. There are so many ways to look about any set and setting. It’s all just the same to what find attractive to be part of for a comfort at heart. Unless in a physical stressful environment or bodily disease of malnutritionment, peace of mind and a groovy time be had. Much all people find your shared presence of kind being. If you look to alls eyes you’ll find very caring individual there. Much more so for themselves though they share what can. And it’s that not need let your own care be of what they showed to you. People are awesome. The structure of society is the troubling part. Though if you put those inorganic material world aside the awesomeness of our life easily seen.
Maybe something here rang a bell for you.
Public places are places where full presence and awareness be best brought about for everyone of us hold these eyes, mind and heart, body, that speaks in so many ways.
Peace.
The problem isn't not being able to think for one's self. The problem is when you just can't put all the pieces of the puzzle together. I may have this ability now, but I am not sure. I am 43 and I am miserable from age 7, and an avid substance abuser to boot. So I just can't trust everything I think that I finally understand. Not to mention that I definitely do not understand everything, far from it. It is a very old trauma that just happened to change my life. A trauma that made a very happy boy, miserable forever after, and I wasn't aware, can you imagine? I do trust my gut feelings, always did, but now I do keep my perspective open and I am not in a hurry to take for granted everything I consider as normal. I know I have compulsions, so I just can't be sure which idea is stemming from the sick or the healthy part of me. I think I do know how to distinguish between them now, but I prefer to have a specialist confirm or deny my "revelations". I am trying my hardest to escape a very old loop, and if I need help, I will gladly accept it. Except for meds, this I am not going to accept. If I am going to get better,it won't be because of a chemical, I need to do it completely sober, true to myself....and...I don't think it will be so easy.
Ignorance is bliss. So it been said.
I stopped reading few sentences in cause that perspective one I see not come to terms with. Sure we all have problems though the more to look to and give conscious thought to create a greater presence to such issues. It’s as watering that seed and it grows.
“Miserable since age 7”
Hang it up buddy. A new day everyday to make and give self better living.
I ain’t got it easy though it’s all so easy. It’s really what you make it. You sound bit out of your head in a dialogue of negative giving being whispered repeatedly to you behind your ear. Calm that voice. The heart likes blood. Feels well to new blood and pumps to brain to ride along new roads of consciousness. Ever expanding that mind is. Narrowly speaking these rehearsed words are as polishing a brick wall that need not be there blocking road of progression.
Quit verbalising negative Nancy’s. Swallow that and shit it out, flush it down and wash your hands. It gets easier every effort made to not be of what agonising the self.
I’ve learnt, a simple glass of water to an arising troubled thought becoming aware is enough to bypass get hung up on such.
For real, how much water you drink? What’s your diet? Your body type? Ever get into any physical endurance that takes the brain from mind and uses bodily matter to carry on such bodily movements to that of what physically happening.
Sticks and stones may break bones but….
Don’t let your rehearsed dialogues act get to you. It will wash away.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said:
Quote:
Skropi said:
Quote:
WhoManBeing said: I hadn’t read much of thread for psychiatrist like advice I beg to differ as can think for myself and find own trail and errors. Don’t bother all too much to making expectations of what become for at peace I am to what is and know when I can give more into a moment I do my best to make that effort.
Trouble going out into society? Matter of perspective and interest to that what perceive. There are so many ways to look about any set and setting. It’s all just the same to what find attractive to be part of for a comfort at heart. Unless in a physical stressful environment or bodily disease of malnutritionment, peace of mind and a groovy time be had. Much all people find your shared presence of kind being. If you look to alls eyes you’ll find very caring individual there. Much more so for themselves though they share what can. And it’s that not need let your own care be of what they showed to you. People are awesome. The structure of society is the troubling part. Though if you put those inorganic material world aside the awesomeness of our life easily seen.
Maybe something here rang a bell for you.
Public places are places where full presence and awareness be best brought about for everyone of us hold these eyes, mind and heart, body, that speaks in so many ways.
Peace.
The problem isn't not being able to think for one's self. The problem is when you just can't put all the pieces of the puzzle together. I may have this ability now, but I am not sure. I am 43 and I am miserable from age 7, and an avid substance abuser to boot. So I just can't trust everything I think that I finally understand. Not to mention that I definitely do not understand everything, far from it. It is a very old trauma that just happened to change my life. A trauma that made a very happy boy, miserable forever after, and I wasn't aware, can you imagine? I do trust my gut feelings, always did, but now I do keep my perspective open and I am not in a hurry to take for granted everything I consider as normal. I know I have compulsions, so I just can't be sure which idea is stemming from the sick or the healthy part of me. I think I do know how to distinguish between them now, but I prefer to have a specialist confirm or deny my "revelations". I am trying my hardest to escape a very old loop, and if I need help, I will gladly accept it. Except for meds, this I am not going to accept. If I am going to get better,it won't be because of a chemical, I need to do it completely sober, true to myself....and...I don't think it will be so easy.
Ignorance is bliss. So it been said.
I stopped reading few sentences in cause that perspective one I see not come to terms with. Sure we all have problems though the more to look to and give conscious thought to create a greater presence to such issues. It’s as watering that seed and it grows.
“Miserable since age 7”
Hang it up buddy. A new day everyday to make and give self better living.
I ain’t got it easy though it’s all so easy. It’s really what you make it. You sound bit out of your head in a dialogue of negative giving being whispered repeatedly to you behind your ear. Calm that voice. The heart likes blood. Feels well to new blood and pumps to brain to ride along new roads of consciousness. Ever expanding that mind is. Narrowly speaking these rehearsed words are as polishing a brick wall that need not be there blocking road of progression.
Quit verbalising negative Nancy’s. Swallow that and shit it out, flush it down and wash your hands. It gets easier every effort made to not be of what agonising the self.
I’ve learnt, a simple glass of water to an arising troubled thought becoming aware is enough to bypass get hung up on such.
For real, how much water you drink? What’s your diet? Your body type? Ever get into any physical endurance that takes the brain from mind and uses bodily matter to carry on such bodily movements to that of what physically happening.
Sticks and stones may break bones but….
Don’t let your rehearsed dialogues act get to you. It will wash away.
Unfortunately you got it all wrong mate. I don't mean to offend you, and I am grateful that you are trying to help, but you don't seem to realise what is really going on. I am not sad, I am not just feeling unwell, this is something that I couldn't even understand myself, and now I know. Physical exercise etc etc, yeah, that was my main way of coping for so long, just exhausting myself physically, by choosing all the suitable jobs to achieve that. That doesn't work in my case, it just hid the problem. I don't need coping mechanisms, I've had enough of them already, and they only confused me and hid the actual problems. I want to face the problem head on, own it, and finally find my self again. This I cannot do without help. I am ashamed to have to rely to others, but no mate, I am done lying to myself, I admit defeat, I just can't go on by myself, and it's time to finally admit weakness, humility, and that I need guidance to manage to get out of this. You seem to believe that it is a matter of choice. It is not. I cannot choose how to feel, except when my compulsions make me sad, just for the fun of it. Not my fun, their fun. What I can choose is to repress everything again. I can do it easily, I did it when I repressed a fit of uncontrollable rage yesterday.and was amazed at this ability of mine. Years of practice makes perfect. I don't want to keep doing that though, that is the reason I am now posting all this crap. Except for the rage, this I can't let go, it is scary and dangerous, and I feel real terror at myself, so it will remain repressed form the time being, except if my therapist advices me to let it out. At least I got an ability out of this, "How to repress any feeling in 3 easy steps", by Skropi.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28653247 - 02/09/24 07:07 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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What’s the three steps Skropi?
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
Edited by WhoManBeing (02/09/24 07:08 PM)
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: What’s the three steps Skropi?
Lol good question mate. I guess the order should be something like this 1. Get a good enough trauma 2. Count on your brain to try and "save" you by indulging in a fantasy world 3. As if the fantasy world isn't enough, do be a good boy and get addicted to everything that you can get addicted on. That is all more or less, with a healthy dose of pure, unadulterated denial thrown in the mix. Denial is the worst enemy, I am on its grips right now, and it's has an amazing power. I truly think that this will be the most difficult obstacle to surmount. You've all seen my posts. I truly meant everything, and last night, at once, without warning, I just felt a total absence of feeling, and the thought that I am wrong, and everything is ok, came uninvited. I haven't slept all night, fighting this, and I still haven't totally won this battle, not even close. I just haven't given way, haven't surrendered without battle, but I am losing it. I can't beat this now, my only hope is that I am at least aware of this now, and I managed to put up a fight, no matter how meagre. I don't think I've faced a stronger opponent than this though. Even addiction looks like child's play. Right now I feel almost nothing.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
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Loc: Oregon
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28654302 - 02/10/24 03:05 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Fight or flight. Take a flight.
Your words are so very foreign to me. I reading them and don’t see why need project such to your being. What influencing past events revealed to you to be of such character upon yourself?
You take medication? Rx?
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
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Can you not get back to that of you where were once at peace and harmony to your self!
Even if just a brief flash of some memory, basque in that and let saturate through this hang up.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Skropi
Space Ritual


Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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I chose fight btw, with the help of psilocybin. I will only say that after yesterday's trip, I've found out the root of everything. I've felt it, and knew that psilocybin really works, but I never imagined that it could show me what, when, and how I felt. This is unbelievable to say the least. I've managed to write down my questions, so as not to forget them, and believe me when I say this, it was not the present me that wrote them down, it was the me from back then. A very confused, angry, and scared kid. Instead of answers, I got a starting point and some questions. Some questions that I've never asked. I am not aware of the answers yet, but I am 100% sure that they are within reach, and come 27 of February, I will have someone specialised in helping me to find them out. I only found one answer, during the last stages of the trip, why I am prone to addiction. It makes me feel safe for some reason. I just don't know the answer to why it does this. I only know that today I feel much less the need to indulge in anything that makes false promises of safety. There is some key missing still, but I don't mind. I've waited for so long, a bit more can't hurt. Oh, and I am a lot less confused now. Reading my past posts in this thread, shows me confusion, exaggeration, and hidden avoidance. Oh well, just a bit more time.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28655122 - 02/11/24 08:16 AM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
felt it, and knew that psilocybin really works, but I never imagined that it could show me what, when, and how I felt.
Christians see Christian content, Muslims see Muslim content, so yeah you're seeing the content of your mind which is guided by the inertia of what you've been taught.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
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Modest Mouse has some depressing, enlightening, philosophical awe, good tunes. Very much of their own.
Have you heard? Maybe you find some good word.
Addiction, false promises you say?
See, to addiction, I’ve used a lot of substances. Have had body physically dependent to; say alcohol and the shakes, cocaine never saw physical dependence for feel better when stop using as body is recovering itself a deach bit of recovery feels better and better, same said to alcohol and all. Substance use always seems habitual. Get in the swing of a routine and it’s all groovy, so to say.
I’ve seen people who use drugs to cope and all. Lightly, said, tobacco use. This fella would like to smoke cigarettes. But, he turned into a must have a tiff then can relieve self with pleasurable cigarette. He’d then through the day deliberately get self in a pity, tiff, you know, an angst like presence so he can enjoy the cigarette. That I saw as a dumb habit of his. He wasn’t physically dependent it’s just drugs hit reward feel good to body and that’s how he need find the feel good by digging self to feel bad before.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Ok guys, I can update this thread now. I got a diagnosis, and it was the thing that I suspected just for a few minutes, but discarded it as totally impossible...I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. At least the pain and suffering has a name now, although I prefer to call it something different 😄 Thank you all from the depths of my heart for participating in this thread guys, you were a tremendous help, even by just keeping me company when I most needed it.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 2
#28692327 - 03/09/24 05:39 AM (2 months, 8 days ago) |
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Can you share the procedure one goes thru to receive a diagnosis?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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I hope the diagnosis does not require a prescription
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
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Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Can you share the procedure one goes thru to receive a diagnosis?
I can't speak for everyone, as my case was easy to crack. The psychiatrist is a University professor, and I am an open book. It helped that I already was near the realisation, but there were only a few pieces left to put together. I am sure he knew from the first time we talked. It was a painful process, coming to terms with it, but I feel genuinely liberated and hopeful. ps. It involved talking, which I gather to be usual, and reading, which is probably more specialised to my case, as I have an intense love for the arts. Yeah, he used it well, I was not even aware.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (03/09/24 03:02 PM)
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I hope the diagnosis does not require a prescription
Not yet, as I am in a good position of understanding right now. In case that it becomes needed, I am not sure I'll be able to once again suppress everything, and what's more knowingly this time. If meds become a necessity, I'll keep going without them as long as possible. I do have the refuge of psilocybin too, which I don't love, but I am not averse to the idea of using it medically. All in all, I begin to feel human, if that makes any sense to any of you.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (03/09/24 02:59 PM)
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
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Oh, forgot to tell you that my family's mental health history is quite heavy, there were a lot of clues to go by.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28693288 - 03/09/24 09:50 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Right, when we learn to act "normal" within a family that is not very normative, it is not that easy to lose those rhythms we have become accustomed to for survival.
Lots has to do with family, and realistically, one family is not better than another, except when there is heavy abuse or neglect which is also a form of abuse.
In my daughter's house, everyone puts their feet on the table, I think they are having a lot of fun.
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Right, when we learn to act "normal" within a family that is not very normative, it is not that easy to lose those rhythms we have become accustomed to for survival.
Lots has to do with family, and realistically, one family is not better than another, except when there is heavy abuse or neglect which is also a form of abuse.
In my daughter's house, everyone puts their feet on the table, I think they are having a lot of fun.
No, it is not easy. Now there is another mountain waiting for me to climb. But this mountain does not scare me, nor does it fill me with uncontrollable rage and hate, for this is the mountain that leads the caterpillar to become a butterfly, and a sack of bones and meat to become human. I've found something that was lost, and I am not running away from pain, only to find more of it, anymore. I do not expect the impossible, my hopes and my dreams, my lost humanity, will not return because of the absence of pain, on the contrary, they will return because of my acceptance, and willingness to throw myself in those things that I abhored so much, and realise that I am one with them, in peace and understanding. I don't even bother making assumptions about the future of my therapy, for once, I will trust myself to the hands of another person, and may it bring whatever it wants, pain, suffering, trust, happiness, bitterness, whatever. For this is to be a human, and even though I do not think that I've become one yet, acting like one, and trying to understand this new nature of things, will lead me there. And please, whoever is reading those lines, do not try to make sense of them. I am not trying to help anyone, I am not equipped for that, not yet. These are the rumblings of a creature that put its one foot in front of the other, for the first time.
As an aside note, I've found my lost lyricism. And humour.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28693340 - 03/10/24 12:23 AM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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humor is the most carbon neutral energy resource on the planet and off.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28693819 - 03/10/24 11:57 AM (2 months, 6 days ago) |
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Now that you understand the specific problem, what is your plan of attack?
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
Last seen: 9 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Now that you understand the specific problem, what is your plan of attack?
I have no idea, I am going from one appointment to the next now. What I am trying is to change completely my old habits, trying not to consider other people as inferior, trying to avoid my addictive compulsions, not only substance related, substances are much easier to quit than other, covert addictions, trying to listen for once, trying to obey when required, trying to add some discipline in my life, trying to control my hateful rage, trying to revive everything inside me that makes a human, well, human. I am going well, I know because I notice how people are treating me, differently, but the allure of yesteryear is still here and I feel it, not all the time, but it is waiting. I am just trying to form new habits and a new train of thought, and I hope I'll manage it without meds, because this is the one thing I will not tolerate. All in all I feel like an infant that needs to learn how to become human. I am sorry if I don't make much sense, but only in the last few days my train of thought stopped being completely chaotic, I still need to learn how to put things together in order. Keep in mind that I haven't told my plan of attack to my psychiatrist, so I could be way off. I do trust myself a bit more now, but I am smart enough to know that I may just deceive myself once again, only in a better, smarter way.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
Edited by Skropi (03/10/24 03:33 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi] 1
#28694555 - 03/10/24 10:53 PM (2 months, 6 days ago) |
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wow, this is like turning your socks inside out but in reverse. that can be an amazing trip in itself. life is a trip.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,988
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Naturally.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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One cannot have too many socks
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Skropi
Space Ritual



Registered: 11/01/23
Posts: 414
Loc: Greece
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28697415 - 03/12/24 11:18 PM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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You are right guys, you were from the beginning in fact. And this, while so obvious, was so hidden! It is amazing really, to be able to find weaknesses in everyone, actually being equipped with the skills to find them, and being completely blind to my own! Recognising what life is, and instead of feeling it's love, it's euphoria, along with the pain and suffering of course, to see only devaluation, avoidance, and an extreme need to run away, only to find more pain and suffering, without the love and euphoria. I am actually trying hard here guys, my shrink said, yesterday, that he saw me transformed, but I wouldn't trust a person like me. I may as well be manipulating him. This right here is the worst I think, the trust that we lose to ourselves. Anyway, it is a simple matter in reality, all I need to do is to do what all of you are already doing and don't even consider it. Live. Yeah, so much for my smarts.
-------------------- Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28697468 - 03/13/24 12:40 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said: ...to see only devaluation, avoidance, and an extreme need to run away, only to find more pain and suffering, without the love and euphoria. ...
In mind we cannot avoid or run away, and if we try it is like writhing in place while getting no further than that. the therapy session becomes a model in mind of sitting in the face of what is troubling. and becoming more calmer while sitting and facing it, and finding this more useful than writhing in situ.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28697622 - 03/13/24 07:55 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Just find someone 2 love
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28697641 - 03/13/24 08:19 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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love the one you are with
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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I need so many advices I do not know where to begin.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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I do
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Skropi]
#28697805 - 03/13/24 11:13 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Skropi said: You are right guys, you were from the beginning in fact. And this, while so obvious, was so hidden! It is amazing really, to be able to find weaknesses in everyone, actually being equipped with the skills to find them, and being completely blind to my own! Recognising what life is, and instead of feeling it's love, it's euphoria, along with the pain and suffering of course, to see only devaluation, avoidance, and an extreme need to run away, only to find more pain and suffering, without the love and euphoria. I am actually trying hard here guys, my shrink said, yesterday, that he saw me transformed, but I wouldn't trust a person like me. I may as well be manipulating him. This right here is the worst I think, the trust that we lose to ourselves. Anyway, it is a simple matter in reality, all I need to do is to do what all of you are already doing and don't even consider it. Live. Yeah, so much for my smarts.
Self trust takes time. Not to contradict anything you're learning, a basic insight is that you've experienced a type of depersonalization, which is not inherently a bad thing. You simply don't value the things you once did. That old personality is to a degree, done.
It's confusing yet reasonable that you don't trust yourself. The old personality sticks around and the new is still being built. Over time as you build a new personality based on the values you find valuable now you will learn to trust what becomes reliable. There will be adjustments and changes and it's worth consideration but not everything happens all at once so perhaps there's only so much consideration to be done at any given point in time, i.e. no pressure.
Exercise is the low hanging fruit of mental health. It can't fix everything but having a routine is highly beneficial and would also fill that discipline slot you mentioned. I do 10 minutes of calisthenics and stretching in the morning and 10-20 minutes of walking in the evening, 5 days a week. Very minimal and still highly beneficial.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698040 - 03/13/24 03:40 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I walk and exercise all day every day that I'm at work, and I go on a hike every week, sometimes multiple times. Unless you work a desk job... exercise is overrated. Some people don't get the luxury of 'exercise,' because our bodies are completely beat and there is no energy for it.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698043 - 03/13/24 03:44 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Exercise just physically exhausts your body and makes it to where your brain actually doesn't even have the energy to process what is making you depressed. What you are suggesting is really a means of suppression.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698048 - 03/13/24 03:48 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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My advice is GET HIGH.
That's really what exercise is. I think excessive, unnecessary exercise is not healthy at all and actually wears your body down quicker. I don't believe the hogwash that is peddled to the peasantry. Most of it is total bullshit. As if everyone just needs to exercise. Everyone I know who works is exhausted. So, on the off day... no rest? Go and make your muscles and body work for something that has nothing to do with your actual livelihood? For a muscle pic in the mirror?
People have lost their minds.
If you are not a gladiator, why do you look like a gladiator?
The reason why certain body types were every truly attractive in the first place was because what they signified socially -- not a mere image sculpted in a gym for nothing than the look itself. I totally disagree with exercise culture.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
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Registered: 12/07/19
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Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698055 - 03/13/24 03:54 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I have met so many people who blew their knees out or screwed their body up doing pointless exercises with gym equipment they should have never been screwing around with to begin with. It is disturbing how gullible people are, being treated like actual hamsters with a little exercise wheel.
"Did you run on your wheel today!?"
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28698060 - 03/13/24 04:00 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: Exercise just physically exhausts your body and makes it to where your brain actually doesn't even have the energy to process what is making you depressed. What you are suggesting is really a means of suppression.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
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I'm speaking with an Epicurean ethics in mind of wagering pleasure over pain. The idea that people should be some Stoic body builder who willingly forgoes pleasure... will result in people, de facto, having experienced more pain and physical discomfort in their lives than not. This is inescapable -- and unjustifiable. To tell people who work hard all week that they need to just work harder at the gym, and fit that into their schedule is actually what reinforces people not doing anything at all, because they know exactly what the former will lead to. "I'm going to get mine" becomes the dominant mentality. It's one thing if actually body building is a passion of yours... It is quite another for medical professionals to be suggesting such a clearly psychologically devised method not of making anyone more healthy but suppressed and distracted and too tired to even conceive of any real change that would get to the source of their discontent or their apathy / not wanting to do anything, lacking motivation.
Do something you are passionate in. Live your passion. Passion shouldn't be some thing you do on the weekends. No. Passion should be everywhere in your life.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
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Registered: 12/07/19
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The same energy of cognition, deep thought is what your body uses when you exercise. These people want the masses to be nothing but muscles, essentially. Only reaction... totally controlled via pleasure and pain... What Foucault called biopolitics. It is a real thing.
A lot of energy should be spent in our lives thinking. How do you get people not to think? Make them spend all their energy and render it actually impossible or so rare that anyone who does any deep thinking is ostracized.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28698098 - 03/13/24 04:44 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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the last few weeks have been 12-16,000 steps each day. lots of exercise and mental activity as well. easy to take a nap here and there.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28698174 - 03/13/24 05:46 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Hiking is exercise...
Physical labor does provide some benefits but cannot provide others and too much physical labor is exhausting. Exercise is the opposite of exhausting if done in moderation and in harmony with one's life, which you seem to be doing to some degree by hiking. I didn't "exercise" as a teen and in my 20's because I was playing volley ball, snow skiing, skateboarding, basketball, swimming, climbing hills in the woods, soccer, etc. I had no use for an exercise routine. I was also young and only had ideas on what it might mean for a 30 or 40 or 50 year old. And saying I had no use for it is not the same as saying I wouldn't have gained some additional benefits.
Most exercise isn't about looking muscular but if someone wanted to be strong (which is different than being big) powerlifting is preferable from a health standpoint. Body building enlarges blood vessel wall thickness but in doing so constricts the inner diameter so worse cardiovascular outcomes arise. Professional powerlifters also experience increased vessel wall thickness but without the corresponding reduction in inner diameter, similar cardiovascular outcomes to non-weight lifters.
And when it comes to aging, if one doesn't lift, if one doesn't sprint, if one doesn't jog at a moderate pace, or jump, or stretch, or hike, one will loose the ability to do those things a young person may take for granted. Manual labor for hours a day won't cover everything and only gets more detrimental as time goes on.
I do a couple sets of dumbbells squats one a week, about 90 seconds of active time. I push, pull and lift heavier things working but I am stronger due to the effort of that 90 seconds per week. I walk miles a day working but that's not walking. Walking is walking. Just like hiking is hiking.
Core strength prevents injury when working. A stretching routine prevents injury. Any form of moderate exercise increases both long term and short term health outcomes in various ways. No form of moderate exercise is associated with being exhausted, being frail, have fewer joint problems, etc. etc. They're all associated with increased mood, better biochemical markers, better joint outcomes, etc. Trying to do too much is what causes exhaustion.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
Edited by Rahz (03/13/24 05:52 PM)
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Blue_Lux
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698297 - 03/13/24 07:42 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I'm making a philosophical point. If biking is your passion... I've seen the amazing videos on youtube of bikers going through the forests with a go pro on their helmet. It is incredible, and that seems healthy. I don't consider that the sort of exercise culture I am talking about... It is the sort of culture that makes the human body into a thing, just like things at the store. I disagree ethically with the notion of exercising for exercise's sake. I think that separates psychic energy from action.
It's like... No, don't just get up and go do something... Something fundamental about your energy has to lead to doing something active. Forcing it just separates contents of yourself into arbitrary corners.
Nietzsche said "truly great thoughts are conceived by walking". It is also true that a conversation while walking down a remote trail can go as various of places as the actual sights on the trail.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698373 - 03/13/24 08:56 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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But i agree with you and I like what you said specifically. But why would a 70 year old man need to sprint?
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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redgreenvines
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28698437 - 03/13/24 10:04 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: But i agree with you and I like what you said specifically. But why would a 70 year old man need to sprint?
because a motorcycle is coming right at him while crossing at a red light. at least 3 sprints yesterday
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28698607 - 03/14/24 06:28 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: I'm making a philosophical point. If biking is your passion... I've seen the amazing videos on youtube of bikers going through the forests with a go pro on their helmet. It is incredible, and that seems healthy. I don't consider that the sort of exercise culture I am talking about... It is the sort of culture that makes the human body into a thing, just like things at the store. I disagree ethically with the notion of exercising for exercise's sake. I think that separates psychic energy from action.
It's like... No, don't just get up and go do something... Something fundamental about your energy has to lead to doing something active. Forcing it just separates contents of yourself into arbitrary corners.
Nietzsche said "truly great thoughts are conceived by walking". It is also true that a conversation while walking down a remote trail can go as various of places as the actual sights on the trail.
The vast majority of people who exercise do it for other reasons than for the sake of exercise. Something fundamental about their energy does lead them to do whatever they do even if you find it disagreeable.
I've known bodybuilders at various points in my life. They're not "things" and they have varying reasons for doing what they do. Most of them are not training so they can oil up their body and pose in front of an audience in a speedo.
Some of them want to be able to kick someone's ass when fucked with. Some of them start bodybuilding in response to an injury. Some of them do it because it increases certain bio-chemicals and they get high from it. Some of them do it for vanity or because they perceive it to increase attractiveness. Whether I like it or not, those are all valid reasons for them and it probably does match their psychic energy. I've never met a bodybuilder who was exhausted all the time.
I'm not a fan of bodybuilding to the extreme for several reasons. I think it's worthwhile to point out those avenues that do tend to have worse outcomes. I frown on steroid use as do many bodybuilders. If a dude is shrinking their balls to get a few extra inches of muscle that probably represents a mental issue. I think it's amusing to see a bodybuilders eyes get wide when they get outlifted by a smaller guy. The whole industry has all these conversations at play and changes over time in response to them. And if a gay dude wants to get big and oil up their body for people to see, far be it from me to tell them they're doing it wrong.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Blue_Lux
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28698760 - 03/14/24 09:33 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Lol.
I agree with you for the most part.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,988
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28698878 - 03/14/24 11:23 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Cultivation: Bodily Conditioning, Conditioning Mind:
*(En[{vi}Body:{ro}:Mind{me}]nT)*

Too add some nuance to the elegant wetblanketing of Blue_Lux, I'd say I'd have to agree more with Rahz on the topic of 'exercise'. In that, exercise, fitness, with respect to one's general health & well-being, isn't neccesarrily about adonis complex cockamamie bullshitery ~ illusory and delusory malarky. However, sharing one's view of how other certain people may at times appear to approach cultivation of the body like Blue_lux has shared, seems more geared towards a specific demographic or rather - 'group or groupings' or some people....not all. Le der.
For instance: As a means from getting to point (a) to (b)? I'm generally & strongly averse to using automobiles and airplanes as my primary form of transportation. In turn, 'being' in shape or being 'fit' (*relative fitness wrt health-holistically) naturally comes on foot 'in handy'. 
Seriously, that's among the more primary motivators for myself to 'get myself moving in weird ways' /*exercise. Intentionally or not, the body's always already active anyways.
It's interesting that, such a simple thing as wishing not to use a vehicle as often and as much possible, by substituting walking and or running to and from insofar as possible (if/when possible)- ~ Inadvertently refined the state of my health (relatively), and, led to an enormous reduction in my carbon footprint. I dig it. I earn a bit of transient strength for a time, which is great for me, and the environment now isn't being nearly as abused by myself too. Hey, everything matters. One person or not, it still matters. Anywho. Pretty Sweet deal. 
Blue_Lux, How dare you speak ill of moving the body!?  (i kid, i kid)
If practiced well and done so in conjunction with an otherwise relatively wholesome lifestyle, so as to balance stress/pain with gain/rest and sufficient calories, then I find living, in terms of the body being alive ~ to be less of an overall pain in the arse when simply just casually taking care of one's responsibilities in my day to day life.
It helps with mood cycles. It helps with concentration. It helps with sleep cycles. It helps with digestion cycles.
...it helps with... *what system does it not help with? if practiced tailored to oneself and done so appropriately? (ie. while carefully 'listening' to the body)  By the simple act of more fully engaging ourselves: either minorly, to moderately, or even to severely stressing the body; the body can develop healthily and develop wholesome habits until 2nd nature becomes nature.
Insofar as I can tell, there's no such thing as genuine or absolute stillness, not when it comes to the living, human body. Even during deep sleep, there's activity, activity is ongoing (its...active) - so long as the body is alive - until it isn't, there's only lesser or greater expression(s) of our presently ongoing bodily activity.
However... the body that's relatively inactive for extended durations of time, tends to lose some inertia, dig? Especially if made into a habit? It tends to lead to any number of chronic conditions. If it can be helped...who wants any of that?
Overall, cultivating the body (*exercise) is critical to its development and maintenance of its systems and their primary operations, in terms of their functioning (...generally-speaking) 'more efficiently' - than if not exercising proficiently efficiently so as to routinely 'stress-test' one's system to help it help itself! There's too many practical reasons to list for it; although, idk how many I could list against it. If you don't enjoy it that's fine, eat my shorts, just don't try and pass it off like it isn't ancient and well established at what good it does our kind.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Blue_Lux
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The body's fitness should complement what is required of it, nothing less, nothing more.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28698959 - 03/14/24 01:19 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: The body's fitness should complement what is required of it, nothing less, nothing more.
So sayeth Blue Lux, exercise and fitness expert.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux] 1
#28698968 - 03/14/24 01:25 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: The body's fitness should complement what is required of it, nothing less, nothing more.
there is no manual that lists what is required of a body.
each of us have different bodies that last differently, and benefit differently from foods and exercise, failing to exercise hastens the demise of the body, doing too much is not good either.
If I skip it I get stiff and cranky! android says I did 8,348 steps today.
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Blue_Lux
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The concept of 'exercise' is petty, bourgeois nonsense.
We all need exercise... Will you say that to African nomadic tribes too?
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Bardy


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699138 - 03/14/24 04:41 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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I’m sure nomadic tribes don’t need to be told to get their steps up lol, although maybe they’d benefit from weights training if they had the time and energy for it?
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



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Re: Advice needed [Re: Bardy]
#28699323 - 03/14/24 07:07 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Haha. You see it now, don't you?
There is an inhuman state of affairs going on, and people think the exercise machines will fix that. It looks more like the hamster wheel to me. I think people should be physically active in every single area proportionally for which that energy is required -- energy not demanded of them but what necessarily follows from a healthy psychophysical energy.
This is really what people want to think antidepressants do for you as well. Just balance out those chemicals... Trick your brain... Confuse it.
This is not ultimately healthy. The fact people are being told to exercise means what would lead them to being fit naturally for a specific, passionate purpose that means something in society, like working with heavy machinery, or being a biker, or a swimmer, or a gymnast, or a firefighter, or etc., is now only to be copied and acted out. Each of these things makes a different build of the human body naturally and concomitantly with the psychic energy of the person in their day-to-day life. The buff bouncer ought to be buff, the swimmer lean but cut with large trapezius muscles. Now, say someone really enjoys food... Is it wrong of them to then be overweight? Has the idea of a chef not always been someone who has a big belly and an apron? You see what I'm trying to paint here? I think exercise takes away human identity from the body itself, and even affects its shape but in an artificial way. It is one thing for someone who is vegan and into yoga to have the type of body of someone who does this... I see 'exercise' as it is called as a deliberate way to confuse society. It is to mask that something else is seriously wrong; to distract from the fact that the way we live demands most importantly that we separate what we do from what we feel. I think that is wrong, and I think it is results in a droning redundancy of action, and losing touch with what would truly motivate one to action... a sort of anesthesia.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Bardy]
#28699327 - 03/14/24 07:12 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Get those nomads a treadmill!
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Bardy


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699382 - 03/14/24 07:54 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Haha yeah I hate the idea of just running on a treadmill at a gym. Always prefer getting outside and running the dog on the beach or doing garden maintenance… sometimes I need to use a heap of energy up so I’ll go for a big run.
Whatever works for you I guess
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Blue_Lux
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Bardy]
#28699430 - 03/14/24 08:32 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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I like to direct energy to a variety of things.
I know someone who ran all the time for years and years... Literally running away from her problems. It isn't the best advice.
Running is supposedly great, and fantastic if that's what you like... But telling Jimmy John that he needs to take a few laps around the cul-de-sac is just not gonna cut it. And so what if someone is overweight? Not everyone, again, needs to sprint a 40 in 5 flat.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Bardy


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699474 - 03/14/24 09:17 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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I like a variety too.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699528 - 03/14/24 11:01 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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People who work with heavy machinery don't build a lot of strength unless they also lift weights. Fire fighters often lift weights. And heaven forbid a biker dude lifts weights to be stronger. Or a police man. Or an HVAC repair man. Etc. Etc. Everyone benefits from strength training in some way even if it's only to prolong their health and life and make it easier to carry things. People often enjoy doing it as a substitute for wandering the plains chasing large furry creatures.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Bardy


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28699535 - 03/14/24 11:13 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Yeah, I wanted to say something similar but couldn’t be bothered haha
Going into old age with good muscle mass or not is the difference between having a good time and a shit time
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699537 - 03/14/24 11:17 PM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blue_Lux said: The concept of 'exercise' is petty, bourgeois nonsense.
We all need exercise... Will you say that to African nomadic tribes too?
I would not generalize who is and who is not satisfying their needs on a geo-racial basis. many people go too far to fat, and too far away from tone and well functioning circulation. all over the world by not including exercise in their lives.
BTW there are many immense police constables, who do not exercise except their doughnuts, most likely a bullet will not kill them but a moment of excitement will pop a clogged blood vessel.
I knew this since 8 years old when my dad got his first heart attack.
the second finished him off after he stopped running for a few months.
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Death sucks.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,878
Last seen: 1 hour, 34 minutes
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699730 - 03/15/24 06:52 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Death is relatively boring compared to living.. or maybe not?
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Rahz]
#28699747 - 03/15/24 07:21 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Some people are evil
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Bardy]
#28699775 - 03/15/24 08:04 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Life is pretty cool. Even better without a conscience and a lot of money and power...
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux]
#28699786 - 03/15/24 08:19 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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why would that be better?
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Blue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής



Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 3,989
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
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Because a yacht with a crew of a hundred people or more is just better than otherwise.
-------------------- ☆✮★⋆I ♡ the music, not the bling⋆★✮☆ the Dutch gay purge & pogrom 𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙. mēns super rēs the truth of the Kykeon
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Blue_Lux] 2
#28699861 - 03/15/24 10:14 AM (2 months, 1 day ago) |
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better than what, it wastes energy, and the private jets are terrible too.
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