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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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I had an extreme situation growing up, I'll leave out the details but I was physically and emotionally abused and tormented as a child, my life was threatened many times, and that had a lot of downstream effects. I was also isolated without friends or siblings.
I'm not trying to compare myself to you, or say that we are similar.
I did think suicide was the only way out of hell for a long time. I never ever imagined that things would turn out the way they have, even though I hoped to be well.
None of us knows where things are headed in our life. If you think you are doomed or hopeless, that can perpetuate problems.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640681 - 01/30/24 02:20 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I was severely bullied as a child which caused me to get PTSD.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Do you have access to self love at all?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom] 1
#28640818 - 01/30/24 04:28 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
this is a naive statement. I'm usually open to lots of perspectives, however I happen to know many people with PTSD who were also very dedicated practitioners of concentration and mindfulness.
It makes it worse for some people.
Trauma reactions and PTSD is different than regular reactivity. If a car cuts me of and I'm mindful, a moment of frustration might appear but then drain out in a few seconds. This is not the same with trauma reactions.
There are also other ways to work with regular reactivity. For example if there is awareness that self is not a solid thing, the reaction also drains out fast. Also if there is simply awareness of thought and the nature of thought, awareness drops out fast. These are all slightly different angles on the same thing, emptiness of self. In a deeply concentrated state, the reaction might not even arise, as its just pure sensation without any meaning.
I think trauma is a memory reconsolidation issue. Flashbacks, which include flashback fragments such as just emotion, are different than regular memories or associations. They are much stickier (might have something to do with norepinephrine release).
Love, loving kindness, compassion, warmth, gentleness, whatever you call it has a transformitive effect. It does at least two things at once. When you can love a part of yourself that appears, you're identifying with a loving part (or even as a nondual non-seperatness thats full of love and not seperate from the traumatized part). This non identifying immediately creates some space and starts to take some energy out of the reactive part. Second that love can make it safe for the part to come into the present moment and it can become integrated or unburdoned, instead of being split off and dissciated.
walking up and down stairs may allow the dissociated part to calm and go back into its little hidey hole, but is unlikely to be transformed, or reconsolidated
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640908 - 01/30/24 05:27 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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loving kindness is somewhat abstract, and compassion even more so - in any case one must learn self soothing (relaxing) to get past anxiety
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
perhaps that is what worked for you, but to create dogmatic generalizations from your own personal experience, especially in the face of this person here sharing his experience, is naive
my experience was that relaxing the mind allowed the traumas to bubble up, and for some of the lighter ones they could just rise to the surface and pop. but the heavy ones required some thing else.
Other people have shared this as well.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28640968 - 01/30/24 06:10 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
....
Yes it begins as self soothing I.e. developing Metta for oneself.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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many people have resistance to loving kindness for themselves because they have unresolved issues wiQuote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Freedom said: if you have access to it, its not abstract
it is a form of self soothing
....
Yes it begins as self soothing I.e. developing Metta for oneself.
well an interesting bit of synchronicity, I started reading the book 'No Bad Parts' about internal family systems, and literally just read this for the first time :
Quote:
That being said, the ubiquitous, Buddhist-derived practices of mindfulness are a step in the right direction. They enable the practitioner to observe thoughts and emotions from a distance and from a place of acceptance rather than fighting or ignoring them. For me, that’s a good first step. Mindfulness is not always pleasant, however. Researchers who interviewed experienced meditators found that substantial percentages of them had disturbing episodes that sometimes were long-lasting. The most common of those included emotions like fear, anxiety, paranoia, detachment, and reliving traumatic memories.10 From the IFS point of view, the quieting of the mind associated with mindfulness happens when the parts of us usually running our lives (our egos) relax, which then allows parts we have tried to bury (exiles) to ascend, bringing with them the emotions, beliefs, and memories they carry (burdens) that got them locked away in the first place. Most of the mindfulness approaches I’m familiar with subscribe to the mono-mind paradigm and, consequently, view such episodes as the temporary emergence of troubling thoughts and emotions rather than as hurting parts that need to be listened to and loved. Why would you want to converse with thoughts and emotions? They can’t talk back, can they? Well, it turns out that they can. In fact, they have a lot of important things to tell us.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Note When stuff arises while in meditation Be cognizant of it and be calm Calm is the thing most of value.
That is why I think much of the dharma is distracting to students.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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What you're saying is very naive
your advice is misleading and potentially harmful
your taking to someone who has lots of experience with deep concentration and trauma and who knows lots of people with the same
not only may it discourage someone from getting a differnt kind of method that may work for them, it can also cause people to lose faith in meditation, and I've seen that because they have trauma and just keep trying to concetrate and be calm and it doesn't work, so they think meditation doesn't work for them
I have also known and talked with experienced mediators who are trauma therapists
perhaps just trying to be calm and relaxed worked for you. maybe you even had extreme PTSD and it happened to work for you, but to generalize this to others and claim its the only way is very naive
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641025 - 01/30/24 06:51 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Here is free hour long webinar on the topic
https://davidtreleaven.com/the-truth-about-mindfulness-and-trauma/
and a book about it https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Sensitive-Mindfulness-Practices-Transformative-Healing/dp/0393709787
edit: here's a link to the book if you want to check it out:
Quote:
If you’re reading this, you likely know how powerful mindfulness can be.
You may have experienced the many benefits of practice such as increased mental clarity, enhanced emotional regulation, and a greater sense of self-awareness.
Because of this, you may be offering mindfulness practices to others—as a meditation or yoga teacher, for instance, or a therapist, coach, or religious or classroom teacher. Inspired by what mindfulness can offer, you’ve taken on the responsibility of guiding people through practices that can significantly improve the quality of their lives.
But are you aware of the challenges people struggling with trauma can face when practicing mindfulness? Unbeknownst to many, mindfulness practice can exacerbate trauma symptoms. By asking someone to pay close, sustained attention to their inner world, people struggling with trauma can experience flashbacks, dissociation, and even retraumatization.
This means that as practitioners, we can unintentionally lead people into the heart of wounds that require more than mindful attention to heal.
Edited by Freedom (01/30/24 06:58 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641065 - 01/30/24 07:41 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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fair enough freedom, get calm through breath following using any method you like or are familiar with.
add whatever concepts you need.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641083 - 01/30/24 07:57 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: sudly]
#28641087 - 01/30/24 08:01 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641094 - 01/30/24 08:07 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I've been through CPTSD due to emotional abuse and it took almost a decade to overcome, but eventually I found myself capable of compersion instead of jealousy or feelings of betrayal.
I was focused on what didn't happen, traumatised by what I wanted to have happened. Now I know what I'd change so I don't feel the regret I use to.
This was only my experience it'll be different for others, but maybe similar for someone.
Awareness of thought? Idk.
Awareness of shifting perspectives? Maybe.
I'd use personally responsibility and a health sense of accountability over self love. Love in these terms doesn't seem very clearly defined. Self love? Like idk man, I try to be honest to myself, I've been rather jovial the last few years, and surprised myself at times. I don't mind filtering people I'm not resonating with, but I'm respectful in all my interactions. I haven't had a bad date, even if the chemistry didn't spark, I still had a great time every time.
I'm a little more confident and comfortable in a balance between selfish desire, or want, and respectability.
My self love, is being vulnerable enough to express my attractions, but to be able to hold back enough to know nothing like that is a given and it's okay either way, because if nothing lusty happens, then nothing changes and that's okay. Sometimes it works out, but every time so far it's ended well. Positively, amicably, respectfully, full closure every time. That's my kinda self love so far.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
perhaps sociopaths are without love
there are many methods, I'm not advocating for one in particular, I asked a question, it wasn't of you
another word is caring. like do you feel care for your children?
its interesting cause I was asking, not advocating anything, and i wasn't even asking it of you. seems like i may have touched a sore spot...
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
Naww 
It's a bit like "have you truly taken Christ into your heart", but in the right culture it can be meaningful therapy 
love and self love mean different things to people, breath however is pretty universal and becoming oriented to calm is also cross cultural.
just saying (naive little me)
I'm saying your naive because I've known people who reactivated their truama through mindfulness practice and did things like start self harming again after years of not, or go to other harmful coping strategies
your advocating a particular kind of mindfulness as 'the way'
but its not the only way
its funny that you're comparing me to christians for asking a simple question, i think that might be projection in the way freud used the word, in that you seem to be advocating a fundamentalist or rigid position, that your method is the only one the should be used or that is effective, and unwilling to admit or look at the fact it can be harmful in some circumstances
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,499
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Re: Advice needed [Re: Freedom]
#28641312 - 01/31/24 02:41 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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mindfulness will stir the pot and associations will come out, however it is also primarily a way to learn to relax. Particularly how to relax in the face of associations coming out. It may take years to heal using this process, but that is how it works in a nutshell 1. build calm (by following the breath using any technique.) 2. engage insight (which is restoring calm in the face of mental contents (AKA mara including trauma that is linked to triggers in mental contents))
I find that questioning a person's love (or self love (what do you even mean)) and caring is as insipid an approach as asking about a person's trust in Christ.
profess whatever you want.
I am here and I interrupted you because I thought your approach Quote:
Freedom said: Do you have access to self love at all?
was insipid and condescending in public.
If you are professionally equipped to ask that kind of question without an intake session, then you might do so in private.
Here, publicly, share what you know but don't try to make this your private therapy room. It lacks privacy, immediacy, professionality, and is linked by text, so the connection is tenuous at best.
(how naive is that?)
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,476
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: here is a picture of me going up and down stairs. any staircase will do

go into the moment, forget love and hate, pain and joy, craving and fear. going into the moment - that is the way
Is that legit you?
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