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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Northerner]
#28635147 - 01/26/24 01:05 AM (1 day, 21 hours ago) |
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Northerner said: I had a look and found commercial imagery is if you are going to sell the images such as stock photography and train stations are covered by British law, despite being privately owned.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/railway-enthusiasts/guidelines-for-taking-photos-at-stations/
Any attempt or even intent to make money with imagery makes the act of capture 'commercial photography'. If you shoot video for your YouTube channel that constitutes a part of your income through advertising, filming the footage is commercial. It very much applies here.
There's also this in the link you posted:
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Please respect the fact that some people may not want to be photographed.
Note furthermore that the site you linked to does not constitute UK law or private railway operator policies but merely attempts at summarizing all this in a very succinct way. You can't rely on that text to arrive at a legal definition of 'commercial photography'. It's a very informal, quick & dirty summary that's likely also written without much awareness of today's media landscape; i.e. it seems to cater fine for people making holiday snapshots on their travels and train enthusiasts documenting the different kinds of rolling stock, but it does not fit very well with today's reality of social media influencers etc. Finally, Network Rail is an infrastructure management company that's active in maintaining & installing rail infrastructure not including railway stations. So whatever they say about stations is pretty much outside their scope of activities anyway.
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Northerner said: UK public should have been up in arms about those assets being sold. That said Australians were very complacent when our telephone and electricity grids were sold off.
There was quite some upheaval throughout the storm of privatizations in mostly the 1990s (but starting in the 1980s and extending through the 2000s). However, I'm not sure if you remember and/or are aware of it, the 1990s were in Europe as well as the US a decade of particularly strong economic optimism. On that wave of economic and technological promise (remember the dot.com boom, which turned out to be a bubble?), it was fairly easy to sell the political idea of privatizations - after all, look at how brilliantly the market is managing itself and how expensive our public infrastructure and how incompetent our governments are (note that dominant political currents were relatively liberal)? So that's what the electorate swallowed and in many cases even applauded. Again, not sure how you remember that period, but I still have pretty lively memories of that period and was a fairly active newspaper reader as well back then. It all made perfect sense from the perspective we had then. Does it still do so today? Well, a little less so, I think.
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One might question about how public laws are applied in private spaces like train stations in the UK, as well. Like guards at the station could expect to be treated as if they were working on private property, as they are there in a private capacity, whereas the public who are there in a public capacity may be subject to public laws except where that crosses over with things like station employees and trespassing laws.
Just speculating here, because it seemed in the video that the police and public were under the impression that the people there have public rights in the station.
Generally, the mechanism is that legislation of higher bodies supersedes that of lower bodies. I.e. human rights supersede European (in the EU) or national (UK) legislation, which supersedes regional/community rules & regulations, and these supersede policies issued by private actors. So in case of a conflict of these regulations, the overarching regulatory body prevails.
This means that portrait rights will prevail over any local regulations; i.e. as an individual, you enjoy protection in terms of portrait rights within a railway station because it's managed by national (UK) law and whatever local/private policy exists, cannot negate this. On the other hand, the right to produce footage on private property is not laid down in national law, and hence there's no conflict and local/private policies in this sense will be valid.
This still leaves the conflict between portrait rights and the right to collect information (shoot footage). In a case where the footage would only be shot for private/non-commercial use, the conflict of interests would be between the right to collect information and any local/private regulation that may bar one from photographing others. As I argued before, it is very well possible that St. Pancras has local regulations along these lines - but it's also very well possible that the formulation of these is inconclusive in a legal sense. With imagery produced for commercial purposes, as is arguably the case here given the channel of publication and the commercial interest of its owner, these Chinese people can claim recourse to portrait law and while they could not claim the footage not being shot (at least not on the basis of portrait law), they could demand it not be published. Either way, is it turned out, the publication of the YouTube video as it's presently online in all likelihood constitutes a violation of these people and my expectation is that if they demand it be taken down, their case stands a very good chance in court indeed - and YouTube will probably not even take it that far and just take it down before it gets costly.
In any case, the problem here is mostly that this situation is effectively a nexus of the regulations of several authorities, and several different rights apply from both perspectives. This makes it much more nuanced than what one might expect given the initial outcries along the lines of "ridiculous, those Chinese should have just put up and shut up". It's actually pretty complicated in a legal sense to begin with, since there's a very good chance that the sense of entitlement of both parties has a legal basis. It's even more complicated because this event illustrates challenges in applying legislation that mostly predates the present media landscape with some cultural and social aspects thrown into the mix for good measure.
Finally, when evaluating this case, it might be entertaining to do a couple of thought experiments. Replace the Chinese people with a regular British or American family. Would we still feel the same about the thing? What if the pianoman weren't a white eminence with a PhD, but a Russian tourist with a big rolex, some gold necklaces and a horde of followers on Insta, YouTube as well as TikTok? What if the railway station wasn't that, but a busy supermarket that happens to have the same photography policies as St. Pancras? Legally, none of this would have made any difference whatsoever. But I bet it makes a LOT of difference in how we respond emotionally to such a case, and I also bet that there are still some very inconvenient truths underlying that difference even today in 2024.
So it's a rather painful event, this one. But not only for the reasons we might recognize at first glance.
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koods
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635152 - 01/26/24 01:11 AM (1 day, 21 hours ago) |
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koraks said:
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Yokal said: it's only illegal if it's used to defame or extort what they were doing is completely legal
No. Portrait law in all Western countries explicitly entitle the persons depicted to block publication of the images. This is regardless of additional regulations imposed by private property owners.
Idk in the rest of the west but in the US you have the absolute right to film whatever you want in public. There is no expectation of privacy for people in public.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koods]
#28635153 - 01/26/24 01:14 AM (1 day, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
koraks said:
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Yokal said: it's only illegal if it's used to defame or extort what they were doing is completely legal
No. Portrait law in all Western countries explicitly entitle the persons depicted to block publication of the images. This is regardless of additional regulations imposed by private property owners.
Idk in the rest of the west but in the US you have the absolute right to film whatever you want in public. There is no expectation of privacy for people in public.
Yeah, I should have made explicit (like I did in the rest of my post) that the right to block publication applies to commercial publications. AFAIK that's true in the US just as much as in Europe and the UK.
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Northerner
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635193 - 01/26/24 03:54 AM (1 day, 18 hours ago) |
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It was a live stream, artistic endeavour, not a commercial product. Police man knew the law when he walked up and said it's public, you can film in public. It should have ended right there. Really it shouldn't have got to that stage though.
I had thought about bias around this situation too. My own bias and that of viewers. I'd probably feel just fine whoever it was standing up for their right to play piano in public and stream it. But the spectacle with the people being Chinese and the way the authorities there silence and control people kinda hit a nerve. An even greater irony would have been if the dude playing the piano was Chinese and the disgruntled tourists were British.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Northerner]
#28635206 - 01/26/24 04:12 AM (1 day, 18 hours ago) |
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I see your point, but disagree for several reasons. However, enumerating those will just lead to a repetition of things I've said multiple times already.
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Northerner
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635254 - 01/26/24 05:41 AM (1 day, 16 hours ago) |
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I haven't see anyone else anywhere else with the same interpretation of these laws as you have mate. I bet if the Chinese tourists can find a lawyer who agrees with you they're gonna pester that piano dude, they seemed pretty upset.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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koraks
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Northerner]
#28635269 - 01/26/24 06:25 AM (1 day, 16 hours ago) |
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Wow, great argument. I'm impressed.
It would in fact be easy to find a lawyer to defend these people if they chose to press the matter. Their chances of getting this video taken down are astronomically good, given that it's a commercial publication that violates their portrait rights. Alternatively, they could demand payment of royalties.
Edited by koraks (01/26/24 06:28 AM)
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635614 - 01/26/24 01:08 PM (1 day, 9 hours ago) |
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Considering piano man has shown up in multiple interviews with people like Piers Morgan. I guarantee the video isn’t going to get taken down. It’s going to continue racking up views like it’s nobody’s business. If they want to continue to harass him, they’re just gonna give him more money and power. Then draw more attention to the video of themselves. I doubt they would do that.
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koraks
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28635651 - 01/26/24 01:53 PM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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GenesisCorrupted said: I guarantee the video isn’t going to get taken down.
These Chinese guys could have it down within 24 hours by simply invoking YouTube's privacy policy. There's a standard form for it. No need for any legal action, either. It's a clear cut case.
They might not be interested, though, or not (yet) aware of it being online. Keep in mind that Chinese social media are pretty much disjunct from Western platforms. They have their own bubble.
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635652 - 01/26/24 01:56 PM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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If they do that. They’re just going to be giving him more influence like I said. Then he can just ask you YouTube and YouTube is not a very good company. They see the potential of money. They’re gonna put it back up.
Is it possible they could have it taken down. Yes. Is it going to be? I don’t think so.
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Freedom
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28635660 - 01/26/24 02:09 PM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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Does anyone know why they didn't want to be filmed?
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GenesisCorrupted
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Freedom]
#28635662 - 01/26/24 02:12 PM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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All we have is speculation.
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Freedom
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
#28635678 - 01/26/24 02:24 PM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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to me thats the important point. like yeah we have rights, cool, but clearly they were worried about something.
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Northerner
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: koraks]
#28635694 - 01/26/24 02:40 PM (1 day, 7 hours ago) |
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Northerner
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Freedom] 1
#28635697 - 01/26/24 02:45 PM (1 day, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
GenesisCorrupted said: I guarantee the video isn’t going to get taken down.
These Chinese guys could have it down within 24 hours by simply invoking YouTube's privacy policy. There's a standard form for it. No need for any legal action, either. It's a clear cut case.
They might not be interested, though, or not (yet) aware of it being online. Keep in mind that Chinese social media are pretty much disjunct from Western platforms. They have their own bubble.
There's been multiple requests for it to be taken down. It's still up. All the main Chinese people in the film live and work in the UK.
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Freedom said: Does anyone know why they didn't want to be filmed?
There's been released part of the film where the Chinese guy actually plays the piano, and they are all clapping and dancing together and stuff. Only after that they ask for that not to be used. We have all been somewhat deceived as to the context, the request really wasn't unreasonable imi.
edit:
I think the piano man would have reacted differently if the people had just asked him as a person to please not post their interaction, rather than claiming agreements with people and legal action. Probably would have been pretty cordial about it all.
Piling on the ironies, the chick who asked for the images not to be used is currently being sued for breaking those laws in China as a Chinese influencer, and the dude that got angry and claimed racism as soon as communist China was brought up actually works in London for a CCP frontline organisation.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Freedom
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Northerner]
#28635708 - 01/26/24 02:53 PM (1 day, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:
There's been released part of the film where the Chinese guy actually plays the piano, and they are all clapping and dancing together and stuff. Only after that they ask for that not to be used. We have all been somewhat deceived as to the context, the request really wasn't unreasonable imo.
I used to have pretty bad PTSD and sometimes I look at these situtations and looks like people get triggered by what they perceive as threats to their autonomy.
Filming can feel invasive, having your right to film can feel like a threat to autonomy
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Northerner
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Freedom]
#28635720 - 01/26/24 03:10 PM (1 day, 7 hours ago) |
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Especially being Chinese, things said and done that can appear benign to us can be perceived very differently by Chinese authorities. Many would be worried about anything not rehearsed being recorded and published, because Big Brother.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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durian_2008
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
#28635918 - 01/26/24 05:18 PM (1 day, 5 hours ago) |
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They claim to be used to social credit scoring involving facial recognition.
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Freedom
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: durian_2008]
#28635921 - 01/26/24 05:19 PM (1 day, 5 hours ago) |
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I wonder what its like to live in that system
I imagine it would be to live with fear, but maybe they are used to it like I am with driving
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durian_2008
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Re: Guy playing some awesome piano in the UK gets harrassed by Chinese tourists saying to not film them in public [Re: Freedom]
#28635996 - 01/26/24 06:19 PM (1 day, 4 hours ago) |
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I liked Henson Ong and the rooftop Koreans. Some Orientals, during the personal protective equipment and toilet paper mania, were on video explicitly saying how it was a contest to them. They develop cunning ways to screw with their authoritarians and express the same frustrations as libertarians. Morality is more or less universal under natural law, and they are self aware.
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