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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633389 - 01/24/24 02:09 PM (3 days, 16 hours ago) |
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Yes that's the same channel. Awesome stuff.
Haha
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28633432 - 01/24/24 02:55 PM (3 days, 16 hours ago) |
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A few excerpts from the Seven Treasuries. Dzogchen is very similar to for example Chan and Zen.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:
In summary, one comes to a decisive experience of the resolution of phenomena as a supreme and unnameable state:
Within the vast expanse—unnameable and free of elaboration— one comes to a decisive experience of the phenomena of the world of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana. Within the vast expanse—the unborn simultaneity of awareness and emptiness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of one’s own self-knowing awareness. Within the vast expanse—which has nothing to do with the recognition or nonrecognition of awareness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of awakened mind. Within the vast expanse—with no transition or change throughout the three times— one comes to a decisive experience concerning timelessly and totally empty phenomena.
All possible phenomena of samsara and nirvana arise within the scope of awareness, timelessly free of elaboration, and it is ultimately within that awareness that one comes to a decisive experience of these phenomena.
The Great Victory Banner That Never Falls states:
Quote:
There is no change, only ongoing abiding. This is like space—limitations are evened out— and it is not something that relies on anything else.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:
You come to the decisive experience that does not rely on the key points of skillful means and sublime knowing:
To hold that one cannot realize the inexpressible without relying on specific means to characterize it is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as inseparability from the ultimate makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.
Lower spiritual approaches hold that one cannot perceive the ultimate meaning of mind itself without relying on their respective means methods such as those involving the subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu or the two accumulations. In this case, what makes perfect sense in the ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in all its nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of awareness even for an instant, to say that it is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression.
. . .
You come to a decisive experience that is beyond imagination, transcending what is boundless:
Although great perfection is timeless and infinite, without fixed depth or extent, to claim that it is "unfathomable" is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as a boundless, unique state makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.
Followers of lower spiritual approaches-and even some who follow the Categories of Mind and Expanse-hold that because the ultimate essence, this great perfection, has no center or limit, no fixed depth or extent, it is some boundless void state, which they call "beyond the scope of awareness." Here, on the other hand, unique, unobstructed awareness is revealed in all its nakedness, and so does not lie within the scope of ordinary mind or consciousness or any frame of reference. To perceive it within the scope of one's individual self-knowing awareness is to realize it through the key point of distinguishing between ordinary mind and timeless awareness.
. . .
You come to the decisive experience of confusion as a supreme state beyond labels:
This timelessly awakened awareness that entails no object does not wander in samsara, for it is beyond all basis for confusion. No one at all is confused, for there is no context for confusion. Everything lies within the scope of the basic space of phenomena, a single lucid expanse. With no time frame, this spaciousness is equal to space itself. Samsara is primordially pure, a timeless and spontaneously present state of utter relaxation.
Consider the fact that while dreams do not stray from the context of sleep, sleep does not stray from the context of awareness and awareness in turn does not stray from the context of the basic space of phenomena. If you analyze and examine this, you see that no one has ever experienced falling into samsara. Samsara itself is already and forever pure, for it is by nature clearly apparent without truly existing-the very essence of what a dream is, manifest yet without an independent nature. These expressions of emptiness are furthermore pure in dharmakaya, which is without underlying basis or foundation. So the causes of confusion, confusion itself, perceptions based on confusion, and the one ex· periencing confusion have never known existence. One has not been confused in the past, does not experience confusion in the present, and cannot possibly be confused in the future, because there is already and forever a total purity as the very essence of space, which is without underlying basis.
The Great Garuda states:
Quote:
There is no name for, let alone the possibility of, confusion or nonrecognition for anyone. Therefore, since nothing has ever been freed, freeing later on is a fallacy.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:
You come to the decisive experience of the nonduality of samsara and nirvana:
One does not enter a state of freedom or attain nirvana. The unchanging vast expanse-samsara and nirvana have never known existence. Here there is no frame of reference for renunciation or attainment, hope or fear, but rather a supremely spacious expanse that is the primordially enlightened ground of being. All things are mere labels, for in actuality they are beyond characterization or expression. Having decisively experienced that samsara is not confusion and nirvana is not freedom, let no one make any effort! Let no one try to meddle with or alter this!
That is to say, given that self-knowing awareness is timelessly empty and pure like space, samsara is pure in that bondage does not exist and nirvana is totally pure in that freedom does not exist. Since self-know-ing awareness is beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence, you come to a decision that it entails no effort or achievement, no hope or fear.
. . .
You come to the decisive experience of freedom from limitation as a supremely spacious expanse:
Awareness, with no breadth or depth, is not subject to restrictions or extremes, so give up any frame of reference. Awareness, involving no plans or actions, no corning or going, entails no time frame or antidote, so drop reification and effort. If there is a deliberate frame of reference, it is a cause of bondage. Do not rely on any fixed construct whatsoever-let go in evenness!
You should understand that, in essence, awareness is not subject to restrictions or extremes, involves no time frame, no renunciation or antidotes, no plans or actions, no coming or going, no view, meditation, conduct, or fruition, no question of what it is or is not, and no effort or achievement. It transcends the effort and achievement involved in the ten attributes. It is a supremely spacious expanse, free of limitation and all-pervasive, yet it has never existed as anything whatsoever.
The All-Creating Monarch states:
Quote:
The uncontrived genuine state is the true nature of everything. There is no buddhahood apart from this nature. To use the term "buddhahood" is simply to use an arbitrary designation. This true nature requires nothing other than itself-natural mind. Natural mind, uncontrived, is defined as dharmakaya. In being uncontrived, it is timelessly unborn, so in the ultimate sense of its being unborn, there is nothing to seek or achieve. That which requires no action will not be accomplished by attempts to seek or achieve it.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28634097 - 01/25/24 07:32 AM (2 days, 23 hours ago) |
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If awareness runs around in rajas, random activity, or is in tamas, darkness or inertia, does it know itself? When there is some tathata juice, it is recognized as not being in those states, or is an agent of their dissipation.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28634202 - 01/25/24 09:20 AM (2 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: If awareness runs around in rajas, random activity, or is in tamas, darkness or inertia, does it know itself?
Funny you ask this, because this is actually one of the subjects within the Seven Treasuries. The answer in short is yes, but let me quickly check if I can find the chapter.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28634274 - 01/25/24 10:09 AM (2 days, 20 hours ago) |
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So this is from the first chapter. Later it is elaborated on extensively as well.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 1 The Adornment of Basic Space;
Quote:
First it can be demonstrated that since samsara and nirvana do not stray from basic space, all phenomena are without transition or change within the context of supreme perfection, which is equal to space. To this end, it can be shown that although what arises as samsara and nirvana does so naturally within the scope of awareness-the supreme spontaneous presence of the three kayas-it does not stray from spontaneously present basic space:
Within the expanse of spontaneous presence is the ground for all that arises. Empty in essence, continuous by nature, it has never existed as anything whatsoever, yet arises as anything at all. Within the expanse of the three kayas, although samsara and nirvana arise naturally, they do not stray from basic space-such is the blissful realm that is the true nature of phenomena.
Thus, given that awareness is pure by nature, its essence as emptiness is dharmakaya, its nature as lucidity is sambhogakaya, and the way in which its innate responsiveness arises is nirmanakaya. These three are timelessly and spontaneously present without having to be sought. This great, undiminishing treasure is the utterly lucid mandala that abides as the ground of being. Even as anything at all arises within that context-be it awareness's own manifestations as perceived purely by buddhas or as perceived impurely by ordinary beings-it is only the display of basic space as the true nature of phenomena. Nothing else arises, just as nothing you dream about, be it good or bad, goes beyond the context of sleep. Naturally Arising Awareness states:
Due to the sun of awareness rising within the realm of emptiness, the five unchanging kayas arise directly from the mandala of the great, undiminishing treasure. They present a nondual display within a nonconceptual state. On the level of truth, the five mind-body aggregates, without being deliberately structured, are revealed as a magical display of appearances, however they manifest.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
The three kayas are subsumed within me, the all-creating one. All phenomena, however they manifest, have three uncontrived aspects-nature, essence, and responsiveness. I reveal these three kayas to be my suchness.
Therefore, it can be shown that the universe of appearances and possibilities, which manifests as samsara and nirvana, is the magical expression of basic space:
Mind itself is a vast expanse, the realm of unchanging space. Its indeterminate display is the expanse of the magical expression of its responsiveness. Everything is the adornment of basic space and nothing else. Outwardly and inwardly, things proliferating and resolving are the dynamic energy of awakened mind. Because this is nothing whatsoever yet arises as anything at all, it is a marvelous and magical expression, amazing and superb.
In the spacelike context of one's self-knowing awareness, this display of myriad phenomena-this animate and inanimate universe that seems to endure-is revealed to be amazing and superb, since it arises timelessly as a continuous magical expression within an unborn state. Naturally Arising Awareness states:
Awareness, difficult for anyone to realize, is subtle, hard to comprehend, and seen by no one. It cannot be reified, but is equally present everywhere as the expanse of naturally occurring well-being. It arises as the display of samsara and nirvana within a continuous context.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
All phenomena are awakened mind, and to use a metaphor-the universal metaphor-their nature is like space, which is also the ultimate meaning of awakened mind. Space, air, water, earth, and fire-these five are the superb manifest aspect of buddhahood within awakened mind. The manifestations of the three planes of conditioned existence, the five paths, and the six classes of beings are also the manifest aspect of buddhahood, which is not affected by the consequences of karma. The three realms are timelessly the form, speech, and mind of enlightenment. And so, just as there is nothing in the entire universe-the universe of all appearances and possibilities-that does not abide within the realm of space, so too the enormous scope of the vast expanse of awakened mind is such that buddhas, ordinary beings, and the entire universe are present therein.
The way in which the display arises within the expanse of awakened mind can be explained in detail:
Throughout the entire universe, all beings and all that manifests as form are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened form. What is audible, all sounds and voices without exception, as many as there may be, are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened speech. All consciousness and all stirring and proliferation of thoughts, as well as the inconceivable range of nonconceptual states, are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened mind.
Within this scope of awareness, all the sensory appearances that manifest as the universe of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana, arise naturally as awareness's own manifestations, their very essence being nothing other than that of a dream, their nature that of the moon's reflection in water. All manifest forms are the mandala, or display, of enlightened form as an aspect of naturally occurring timeless awareness. All sounds and voices are the mandala of enlightened speech. Ordinary consciousness and the vast range of nonconceptual timeless awareness arise naturally as nothing more than the display of the supreme mandala of enlightened mind. Not even afflictive emotional patterns, which manifest due to the six sense faculties and their attendant objects being invested with identity, stray from the context of this single mandala of naturally occurring timeless awareness. The Tantra Without Letters states:
Everything that occurs-perceptions based on confusion-is my mind. Everything that abides-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened mind. Everything that manifests-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened form. Everything that is audible-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened speech.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
Ah! The all-creating monarch, teacher of teachers, arrays the heart essence as the mandala of enlightened form. However phenomena appear and remain, they are all arrayed within the realm of the unborn basic space of phenomena. Moreover, because there is no acceptance or rejection with regard to the ultimate meaning of this heart essence, I, the all-creating one, have also arrayed them. Ah! The all-creating monarch, teacher of teachers, arrays the heart essence as the mandala of enlightened speech. However phenomena are audible and endure, they are all arrayed through words as enlightened speech within the realm of unborn basic space.
Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 11:34 AM)
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634477 - 01/25/24 12:53 PM (2 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics. Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work. Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.
Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?
The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself in the typical sense.
That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.
A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it). But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.
I experience it like the event horizon of a black hole.
Conceptual questions like is it aware of itself don't cross the threshold. I think Nagarjuna pointed this out to me with his being/non-being, coming/going dichotomies.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 01:50 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28634533 - 01/25/24 01:44 PM (2 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
tree frog said: Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics. Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work. Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.
Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?
The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself.
That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.
A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it). But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.
My reflections anyway after eating a small handful of dried Bisporus today and doing a lot of energy work 'in the dark'.
And of course, carrying this conversation with me into all of that.
Your story reminded me somewhat of the following:
Ronald David Laing;
Quote:
Before one goes through the gate one may not be aware there is a gate One may think there is a gate to go through and look a long time for it without finding it One may find it and it may not open If it opens one may be through it As one goes through it one sees that the gate one went through was the self that went through it no one went through a gate there was no gate to go through no one ever found a gate no one ever realized there was never a gate
Thanks for sharing your experiences and story! Hopefully the following answers your question.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:
To reveal the key point, all phenomena are first shown to have the same source:
Next, the nature of oneness is revealed. Awareness—oneness—is the ground of all phenomena. Although there is the appearance of multiplicity, to say that there is no wavering from oneness is to say that naturally occurring timeless awareness is the single source. Although fire and water manifest separately from a single gem under specific circumstances, their source—the pure gem—is the same. Similarly, although both samsara and nirvana arise from oneness, self-knowing awareness, their source—ultimate awakened mind—is the same. There is simply the illusion of difference based on whether or not awareness is recognized.
Fire or water comes from a single gem because of the specific properties of the sunlight or moonlight shining on it. Similarly, there are different manifestations: samsara, due to nonrecognition of the very essence of awareness, and nirvana, due to recognition. Although they are the display, or the arising mode, of a single awareness, in their essence they neither separate nor waver from it.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634617 - 01/25/24 02:58 PM (2 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I see.
All phenomena are shown to have the same source (stream entry).
Samsara is forgetting this. Nirvana is the awareness of this.
Interesting that I found the source by digging in the dark. There was a warmth and a profound stillness. And a sense of immensity.
The sign that arises for me is like a black hole. An immense inky blackness with an event horizon. So I never did get the light metaphors. But I have attachments to the sign light and had to abandon it a long time ago.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 03:00 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 4
#28634641 - 01/25/24 03:18 PM (2 days, 15 hours ago) |
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This one might give away the blind ass' name:
KOAN:
Yun Men imparted some words saying, "Everyone has a light; when you look at it, you don't see it and it's dark and dim. What is everybody's light?"
He himself answered on their behalf, "The kitchen pantry and the main gate." He also said, "A good thing isn't as good as nothing.”
POEM:
"Spontaneously shining, bathed in solitary light
It is an open secret
Flowers fall, the tree has no shadow
Look! Who does not see?
Seeing, not seeing
Ride the OX backward and enter the Buddha Hall"
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 2
#28634697 - 01/25/24 04:19 PM (2 days, 14 hours ago) |
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Yup, that did it.
The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately
conveyed from west to east.
Among human beings are wise ones and fools,
But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.
The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary
streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different;
Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.
The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.
The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.
Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.
Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.
Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality
Like leaves that come from the same root.
The words high and low are used relatively.
Within light there is darkness, do not be against the darkness. (nothingness/absolute);
Within darkness there is light, do not be against the light. (material/relative).
Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before
and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value
and is related to everything else in function and position.
Things exist as real as how the lid and box fits.
Truth corresponds like the sharp arrow piercing (through things).
Reading words you should grasp where it’s coming from. Do not come up with your own rules.
If you can not comprehend the way, on a far journey how would you know the road.
Progress is not about far or near, delusion can block (you) as firmly as the mountains and rivers.
I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:
Do not waste your time by night or day.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634733 - 01/25/24 05:09 PM (2 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Two more excerpts that are related, and reminded me of other approaches.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - SPONTANEOUSLY PRESENT AWARENESS;
Quote:
Even for those called "ordinary beings," there is nothing other than the context of awareness. Thus, since awareness itself is such that it cannot be separated into samsara and nirvana, there is no need for beings to exert themselves or try to achieve something else. The Perfect Dynamic Energy of the Lion states:
For ordinary beings and buddhas, awareness is not different.
And Naturally Arising Awareness states:
An ordinary being's awareness is true buddhahood.
It can be shown that awareness does not waver and is beyond effort:
Within the essence of being-spontaneous and uniform, unwavering and beyond deliberation-lies the spacious expanse of the ground of being, not created yet ensuring all that has ultimate meaning.
Dharmakaya is spontaneously present as the essence of awareness, and so it abides as this uncreated essence, ensuring all that has ultimate meaning; it constitutes timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous. This can be shown to be the ground of being as the basic space of phenomena, free of limitation. The Reverberation of Sound states:
Timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous, was ineffable in the past and will be ineffable in the future, for it is primordially ineffable. Right now, it is beyond the realm of the imagination. Free of limitation, its very nature is emptiness. Beyond words, surpassing ordinary consciousness, and essentially empty, that nature is not in any way divisible and so entails no manifestation of responsiveness in actions. Due to the third, manifest aspect of timeless awareness, knowledge deriving from conceptual consciousness is misconstrued, leading to a state of confusion. But it has no limited frame of reference. It is ineffable, and within its marvelous display the fruition state of all buddhas is discovered. Inside and out, everything is the basic space of phenomena, which has no manifest form whatsoever.
The first part reminded me of Shankara, commentary from Swami Tadatmananda.
Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:
Enlightened yogis see the entire world in themselves and see everything as non-separate from atma, with the eye of knowledge.
Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - RESTING IN UNCONTRIVED CONDUCT;
Quote:
Another pivotal point is that afflictive emotions are free in their own place:
Thus, all desirable, undesirable, and neutral mental states, in which the three poisons arise as a display due to dynamic energy, occur within basic space, arising within the context of that space. Since they occur only within basic space, not straying from it in the least, without trying to anticipate or manipulate them in any way, it is crucial to identify basic space itself, for as soon as you rest in that context, they will subside naturally, vanish naturally, and be freed naturally.
Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place. This is similar to a pack load falling just where it is when the pin holding the restraining knot is pulled out. If you do not understand this, you will not be able to abandon afflictive emotions even if you try, for they accompany you as naturally as your shadow does your body. You will not be able to refine them away even if you try, for what attempts the refining is no different from what is to be refined; this is like being unable to make a crystal more transparent than it already is. Your emotions will not change even if you try to change them, for mind cannot change mind, just as a piece of turquoise cannot change its color. You will not be able to still them by letting thern become calm naturally, for they are none other than the thinking process involved in letting them go. They cannot be freed with antidotes, for that would be like wanting to make water clearer yet stirring it with a stick; antidotes themselves are just as much something to be abandoned as they are something used to abandon something else. Afflictive emotions in and of themselves are not your true nature-thinking that they are is no different from the thinking of a common fool, which cannot take you beyond samsara. The Conjunction of Sun and Moon states:
"Are these afflictive emotions abandoned? Are they refined away? Are they transformed? Are they allowed to become calm naturally? Are they tamed by antidotes that are specific to each one? Does one let them play themselves out as they will? Are they in themselves one's true nature? Or are they naturally freed by themselves? O Teacher, I pray that you tell me."
Then Vajradhara issued this proclamation: "Ah! Listen, great sage! Listen! These are the words I have spoken: These emotions dwell in the mindstreams of all ordinary beings. They bind one to samsara. If supreme bliss itself is obscured, they have not been eliminated. If they are not realized in their suchness, they occur as naturally as the shadow that follows a yogin's body, and so they cannot be abandoned even if one tries to abandon them. Similarly, they cannot be refined away by one's attempts to do so. Nor can they be changed by one's attempts to transform them. One can only realize their unchanging heart essence; one cannot refine away or change them, for they are like an outcropping of crystal or a piece of turquoise. Yogins examine them to experience their innately pure nature. Similarly, they are not a state of quiescence. One can understand them only with profound insight through direct perception; one cannot destroy them, for they are like Sumeru, the most majestic mountain. They cannot be freed with antidotes. Without understanding the natural purity that is unsought, it is as though one were stirring water while wanting to clarify it; it will not become clearer and clearer. These emotions, moreover, are not themselves one's true nature. Without an understanding of the relaxed way in which awareness's own manifestations are perceived, one's perceptions are like those of a common fool. One's obsessions have not been eliminated."
That is to say, although efforts are made in other spiritual approaches, they are incapable of purifying afflictive emotions. In the ati approach, emotions are purified within basic space without being renounced, through the key point of realizing that self-knowing awareness is unobstructed. In this approach, freedom comes about through the effortful cultivation of the visions of togal, which manifest in a natural state of rest. Alternatively, freedom comes about effortlessly through the realization of trekcho, the bare state of naturally free awareness. However, afflictive emotions are not freed by bare awareness-they themselves are freed by themselves, like a snake that has tied itself into a knot. This crucial point-that afflictive emotions are freed in and of themselves as they arise-comes down to not forgetting to realize bare awareness; and so, though it seems that awareness frees afflictive emotions, this is not actually the case. The same tantra states:
"Ah! Listen again, 0 sage! People have two kinds of minds-there are those who are involved in effort and those who are not. Those involved in effort rest in their natural state. The full measure of familiarity with visionary experience ensures that the pure visions of timeless awareness arise naturally everywhere, within and without. These circumstances ensure that afflictive emotions do not occur. Or as much as they do occur, they are freed in their own place as one rests in the natural state. Therefore, these are the visions of a yogin. The situation for those who are not involved in effort is as follows: Naturally freed in and of themselves, afflictive emotions are themselves naturally free just as they are. Like iron cutting iron or stone breaking stone, they are their own greatest antidote. Anyone with such familiarity will, having realized natural great perfection, discover its implications by resting without seeking anything. Supreme bliss unfolds without being cultivated in meditation. One directly experiences it as one's very nature. Though someone who encounters it may have committed harmful actions with immediate consequences, that person will be freed by becoming familiar with it. Of this there is no doubt-I swear it!"
Very Zen, and reminds me of one of the books I'm reading atm; 'John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination', I'll post an excerpt later.
Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 05:17 PM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? *DELETED* [Re: spinvis]
#28634894 - 01/25/24 07:23 PM (2 days, 11 hours ago) |
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Post deleted by syncro
Reason for deletion: forget it
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 3
#28635033 - 01/25/24 09:24 PM (2 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Forget what I said - I was arguing effort-no-effort, but the picture shines. Pranams.
Edited by syncro (01/25/24 10:19 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635223 - 01/26/24 04:45 AM (2 days, 2 hours ago) |
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What follows are excerpts, from the book I previously mentioned. The first chapter/question I posted in another thread previously, however I included it here again, to avoid confusion.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 2;
Quote:
Q: What method must we practise in order to attain deliverance? A: It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination. Q: What is a sudden Illumination? A: Sudden means ridding yourselves of deluded thoughts instantaneously. Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained. Q: From where do we start this practice? A: You must start from the very root. Q: And what is that? A: MIND is the root. Q: How can this be known? A: The Lankavatara Sutra says: ‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’ The Vimalakirti Sutra says: ‘Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha-Land.’ The Sutra of the Doctrine Bequeathed by the Buddha says: ‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’ In another sutra it says: ‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’ The Sutra of the Names of the Buddha states: ‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’ Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root. If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root. Unless you can penetrate to this truth, all your efforts will be vain; for, while you are still seeking something from forms external to yourselves, you will never attain. The Dhyanaparamita Sutra says: ‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’ Q: By what means is the root-practice to be performed? A: Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished by dhyana (ch‘an) and samadhi (ting). The Dhyana-paramita Sutra says: ‘Dhyana and samadhi are essential to the search for the sacred knowledge of the Buddhas; for, without these, the thoughts remain in tumult and the roots of goodness suffer damage.’ Q: Please describe dhyana and samadhi. A: When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind. By samadhi, you withdraw your minds from their surroundings, thereby making them impervious to the eight winds, that is to say, impervious to gain and loss, calumny and eulogy, praise and blame, sorrow and joy. By concentrating in this way, even ordinary people may enter the state of Buddhahood. How can that be so? The Sutra of the Bodhisattva-Precepts says: ‘All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’ Other names for this are deliverance, gaining the further shore, transcending the six states of mortal being, o’erleaping the three worlds, or becoming a mighty Bodhisattva, an omnipotent Sage, a Conqueror!
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 3;
Quote:
Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell? A: It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell. Q: What is this non-dwelling? A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever. Q: And what is the meaning of that? A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed upon good or evil, being or non-being, inside or outside or somewhere between the two, void or non-void, concentration or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain to it are said to have non-dwelling minds—in other words, they have Buddha-Minds! Q: What does mind resemble? A: Mind has no colour, such as green or yellow, red or white; it is not long or short; it does not vanish or appear; it is free from purity and impurity alike; and its duration is eternal. It is utter stillness. Such, then, is the form and shape of our original mind, which is also our original body—the Buddhakaya! Q: By what means do this body or mind perceive? Can they perceive with the eyes, ears, nose, sense of touch and consciousness? A: No, there are not several means of perception like that. Q: Then, what sort of perception is involved, since it is unlike any of those already mentioned? A: It is perception by means of your own nature (svabhava). How so? Because your own nature being essentially pure and utterly still, its immaterial and motionless ‘substance’ is capable of this perception. Q: Yet, since that pure ‘substance’ cannot be found, where does such perception come from? A: We may liken it to a bright mirror which, though it contains no forms, can nevertheless ‘perceive’ all forms. Why? Just because it is free from mental activity. If you students of the Way had minds unstained, they would not give rise to falsehood and their attachment to the subjective ego and to objective externals would vanish; then purity would arise of itself and you would thereby be capable of such perception. The Dharmapada Sitra says: ‘To establish ourselves amid perfect voidness in a single flash is excellent wisdom indeed!’
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 7;
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Q: When there are sounds, hearing occurs. When there are no sounds, does hearing persist or not? A: It does. Q: When there are sounds, it follows that we hear them, but how can hearing take place during the absence of sound? A: We are now talking of that hearing which is independent of there being any sound or not. How can that be? The nature of hearing being eternal, we continue to hear whether sounds are present or not. Q: If that is so, who or what is the hearer? A: It is your own nature which hears and it is the inner cognizer who knows. Q: As to the gateway of sudden Illumination, what are its doctrine, its aim, its substance and its function? A: To refrain from thinking (nien) is its doctrine; not to allow wrong thoughts to arise is its aim; purity is its substance and wisdom is its function. Q: We have said that its doctrine is to refrain from thinking, but we have not yet examined the meaning of this term. What is it that we must refrain from thinking about? A: It means that we must refrain from wrong thinking, but not from right thinking. Q: What are wrong thinking and right thinking? A: Thinking in terms of being and non-being is called wrong thinking, while not thinking in those terms is called right thinking. Similarly, thinking in terms of good and evil is wrong; not to think so is right thinking. The same applies to all the other categories of opposites—sorrow and joy, beginning and end, acceptance and rejection, dislikes and likes, aversion and love, all of which are called wrong thinking, while to abstain from thinking in those categories is called right thinking. Q: Please define right thinking (more positively). A: It means thinking solely of Bodhi (Enlightenment). Q: Is Bodhi something tangible? A: It is not. Q: But how can we think solely of Bodhi if it is intangible? A: It is as though Bodhi were a mere name applied to something which, in fact, is intangible, something which never has been nor ever will be attained. Being intangible, it cannot be thought about, and it is just this not thinking about it which is called rightly thinking of Bodhi as something not to be thought about—for this implies that your mind dwells upon nothing whatsoever. The term ‘not to be thought about’ is like the various kinds of not-thinking mentioned earlier, all of which are but names convenient for use in certain circumstances—all are of the one substance in which no differences or diversities exist. Simply to be conscious of mind as resting upon nothing whatsoever is to be without thought; and whoever reaches this state is naturally delivered.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 10;
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Q: When you said that wisdom is the function, what did you mean by wisdom? A: The knowledge that by realizing the voidness of all opposites deliverance is assured and that, without this realization, you will never gain deliverance. This is what we call wisdom or knowing wrong from right. Another name for it is knowing the function of the ‘substance’. Concerning the unreality of opposites, it is the wisdom inherent in the ‘substance’ which makes it known that to realize their voidness means liberation and that there can be no more doubt about it. This is what we mean by function. In speaking thus of the unreality of opposites, we refer to the non-existence of relativities such as ‘is’ and ‘is not’, good and evil, love and aversion, and so on. Q: By what means can the gateway of our school be entered? A: By means of the danaparamita. Q: According to the Buddha, the Bodhisattva-Path comprises six paramitas. Why, then, have you mentioned only the one? Please explain why this one alone provides a sufficient means for us to enter. A: Deluded people fail to understand that the other five all proceed from the danaparamita and that by its practice all the others are fulfilled. Q: Why is it called the danaparamita? A: Dana means relinquishment. Q: Relinquishment of what? A: Relinquishment of the dualism of opposites. Q: Which means? A: It means total relinquishment of ideas as to the dual nature of good and bad, being and non-being, love and aversion, void and non-void, concentration and distraction, pure and impure. By giving all of them up, we attain to a state in which all opposites are seen as void. The real practice of the danaparamita entails achieving this state without any thought of ‘Now I see that opposites are void’ or ‘Now I have relinquished all of them’. We may also call it the simultaneous cutting off of the myriad types of concurrent causes; for it is when these are cut off that the whole Dharma-Nature becomes void; and this voidness of the Dharma-Nature means the non-dwelling of the mind upon anything whatsoever. Once that state is achieved, not a single form can be discerned. Why? Because our self-nature is immaterial and does not contain a single thing (foreign to itself). That which contains no single thing is true Reality, the marvellous form of the Tathagata. It is said in the Diamond Sutra: ‘Those who relinquish all forms are called Buddhas (Enlightened Ones).’ . Q: However, the Buddha did speak of six paramitas, so why do you now say they can all be fulfilled in that one? Please give your reason for this. A: The Sutra of the Questions of Brahma says: ‘Jala-vidya, the Elder, spoke unto Brahma and said: ‘‘Bodhisattvas by relinquishing all defilements (klesa) may be said to have fulfilled the danaparamita, also known as total relinquishment; being beguiled by nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the silaparamita, also known as observing the precepts; being hurt by nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the ksantiparamita, also known as exercising forbearance; clinging to nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the viryaparamita, also known as exercising zeal; dwelling on nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the dhyanaparamita, also known as practising dhyana and samadhi; speaking lightly of nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the prajfiaparamita, also known as exercising wisdom. Together, they are named the six methods.” Now I am going to speak about those six methods in a way which means precisely the same—the first entails relinquishment; the second, no arising (of perception, sensation, etc., etc., etc.); the third, no thinking; the fourth, remaining apart from forms; the fifth, non-abiding (of the mind); and the sixth, no indulgence in light speech. We give different names to these six methods only for convenience in dealing with passing needs; for, when we come to the marvellous principle involved in them all, we find no differences at all. So you have only to understand that, by a single act of relinquishment, EVERYTHING is relinquished; and that no arising means no arising of anything whatsoever. Those who have lost their way have no intuitive understanding of this; that is why they speak of the methods as though they differed from one another. Fools bogged down in a multiplicity of methods revolve endlessly from life-span to life-span. I exhort you students to practise the way of relinquishment and nothing else, for it brings to perfection not only the other five paramitas but also myriads of dharmas (methods).
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 12;
Quote:
Q; When the mind rests in a state of purity, will that not give rise to some attachment to purity? A: If, on reaching the state of purity, you refrain from thinking ‘now my mind is resting in purity’, there will be no such attachment. Q: When the mind rests in a state of void, will that not entail some attachment to void? A: If you think of your mind as resting in a state of void, then there will be such an attachment. Q: When the mind reaches the state of not dwelling upon anything, and continues in that state, will there not be some attachment to its not dwelling upon anything? A: So long as your mind is fixed solely on void, there is nothing to which you can attach yourself. If you want to understand the non-dwelling mind very clearly, while you are actually sitting in meditation, you must be cognizant only of the mind and not permit yourself to make judgements—that is, you must avoid evaluations in terms of good, evil or anything else. Whatever is past is past, so do not sit in judgement upon it; for, when minding about the past ceases of itself, it can be said that there is no longer any past. Whatever is in the future is not here yet, so do not direct your hopes and longings towards it; for, when minding about the future ceases of itself, it can be said that there is no future. Whatever is present is now at hand; just be conscious of your non-attachment to everything—non-attachment in the sense of not allowing any love or aversion for anything to enter your mind; for, when minding the present ceases of itself, we may say that there is no present. When there is no clinging to any of those three periods, they may be said not to exist. Should your mind wander away, do not follow it, whereupon your wandering mind will stop wandering of its own accord. Should your mind desire to linger somewhere, do not follow it and do not dwell there, whereupon your mind’s questing for a dwelling-place will cease of its own accord. Thereby, you will come to possess a non-dwelling mind—a mind which remains in the state of non-dwelling. If you are fully aware in yourself of a non-dwelling mind, you will discover that there is just the fact of dwelling, with nothing to dwell upon or not to dwell upon. This full awareness in yourself of a mind dwelling upon nothing is known as having a clear perception of your own mind or, in other words, as having a clear perception of your own nature. A mind which dwells upon nothing is the Buddha-Mind, the mind of one already delivered, Bodhi-Mind, Uncreate Mind; it is also called realization that the nature of all appearances is unreal. It is this which the sutras call ‘patient realisation of the Uncreate’. If you have not realized it yet, you must strive and strive, you must increase your exertions. Then, when your efforts are crowned with success, you will have attained to understanding from within yourself—an understanding stemming from a mind that abides nowhere, by which we mean a mind free from delusion and reality alike. A mind disturbed by love and aversion is deluded; a mind free from both of them is real; and a mind thus freed reaches the state in which opposites are seen as void, whereby freedom and deliverance are obtained.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 24;
Quote:
Q: As to the Buddhas and the Dharma, which of them anteceded the other? If the Dharma came first, how can there have been a Buddha to preach it; but, if a Buddha came first, then what doctrine led to his attainment? A: The Buddhas anteceded the Dharma in one sense, but came after it in another. Q: How is that possible? A: If you mean the Quiescent Dharma, then the Dharma anteceded the Buddhas; but, if you mean the written or spoken Dharma, then it was the Buddhas who came first and the Dharma which followed them. How so? Because every one of the Buddhas attained Buddhahood by means of the Quiescent Dharma—in that sense, the Dharma anteceded them. The ‘Teacher of all the Buddhas’ mentioned in the sutra is the Dharma; it was not until they had attained Buddhahood that they first embarked upon their detailed exposition of the Twelve Divisions of the Sutras for the purpose of converting sentient beings. When these sentient beings follow and practise the Dharma preached by previous Buddhas, thereby attaining Buddhahood, that is also a case of the Dharma anteceding the Buddha.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - PART TWO - 11;
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Upon the same day, as the assembly of monks did not break up at the usual time, the Master said: ‘Why do you not disperse? This poor monk has already sat face to face with you. Just go and rest. What doubts do you still entertain?!’ Do not misuse your minds and waste your energy. If something is still bothering you, hurry up and ask whatever you wish.’ Then Fa Yuan, one of the monks present, asked: “What are Buddha, Dharma and Sangha; what are the Three Jewels in One Substance? We beg you, Master, to explain.’ M: ‘Mind is the Buddha and it is needless to use this Buddha to seek the Buddha. Mind is the Dharma and it is needless to use this Dharma to seek the Dharma. Buddha and Dharma are not separate entities and their together-ness forms the Sangha. Such is the meaning of Three Jewels in One Substance. A sutra says: “Mind, Buddha and sentient beings—there is no difference between any of them. When your body, speech and mind are purified, we say a Buddha has appeared in the world. When these three become impure, we say a Buddha has been extinguished.” For example, when you are angry you are not joyous, and when you are joyous you are not angry; yet, in both cases, there is only the one mind which is not of two substances. Fundamental wisdom is self-existent; when the passionless (anasraya—that which is outside the stream of trans-migration) appears, it is like a snake becoming a dragon without changing its scaly skin. Likewise, when a sentient being turns his mind towards Buddhahood, he does not change his physiognomy. Our Nature, which is intrinsically pure, does not rely on any practice in order to achieve its own state. Only the arrogant claim that there are practice and realization. The real void is without obstruction and its function is, under all circumstances, inexhaustible. It is without beginning or end. A man of high spirituality is capable of sudden Illumination, whereon its function will be (seen to be) unsurpassable—this is Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi (Unexcelled Enlightenment). Mind has neither form nor shape; it is the subtle Sambhogakaya. That which is formless is the Dharmakaya of Reality. That of which the nature and phenomenal expression are void is the Boundless Immaterial Body. That which is adorned with a myriad modes of salvation is the Dharmakaya of Merit, which is the fundamental power responsible for the conversion of sentient beings; it (mind) is named according to how it appears and its wisdom is inexhaustible—hence it is called the Inexhaustible Treasury. As the progenitor of all phenomena (dharmas), it is called the Primal Dharma Treasury. As the container of all knowledge, it is called the Wisdom Treasury. As the Suchness to which all phenomena ultimately return, it is called the Tathagata Treasury. The Diamond Sutra says: ““Tathagata means the Suchness of all dharmas.”’ Another sutra says: “‘Of all the dharmas in the universe coming into existence and fading out of existence, there is not one which does not return to the Suchness.”’’
Edited by spinvis (01/26/24 08:09 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635444 - 01/26/24 09:54 AM (1 day, 21 hours ago) |
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"must first purify their own minds"
It is sufficient, but I notice it being the bodies, which is why I like the 'kaya', body vocab, and it is the way my mind works with it, that everything (around dukkha and moksha) is bodies. The trikaya fits well with it, in my way of seeing.
With the image of the likeness of Longchenpa, I was filled with joy, and in the chest, diaphragm, belly was opened, released into that.
Though making without (wrong) thought is sufficient and everything, in the yogas there are emphases on purifying the bodies with subtle elements. Bodies, elements, are mind, and mind is body.
The body takes the form of the practice, or objects, the dharmakaya, anandakaya. I like to see mahamudra as body. It is the same as the form of the mantra which becomes it.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28635479 - 01/26/24 10:21 AM (1 day, 20 hours ago) |
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Buddhist texts can be confusing because sometimes 'mind' refers to all inclusive awareness (which includes the body) and sometimes to thought
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28635491 - 01/26/24 10:33 AM (1 day, 20 hours ago) |
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Haha maybe we should write our own, in modern terminology. Problem solved.
Was typing a reply and saw Freedom responded already. Thanks!
Idries Shah - The Sufis;
Quote:
There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635501 - 01/26/24 10:52 AM (1 day, 20 hours ago) |
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And as many interpretations of these terms as there are souls. I vote take it as you like. Some maintain say Dharmakaya as body of teachings, yet it is also disagreed with as literal. It reminds me of the thought that everyone can write their own version of Ramayana which will join it.
Edited by syncro (01/26/24 10:53 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635522 - 01/26/24 11:20 AM (1 day, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.
There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 3
#28635728 - 01/26/24 03:19 PM (1 day, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:
Quote:
There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.
There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.
There are many body/energy purification practices in Buddhism. Even the basic meditation posture opens the body. Breathe meditation is purifying and gets more and more subtle.
There are also things like Tsa Lung and Tummo practices and many more
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