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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28631752 - 01/23/24 06:43 AM (5 days, 25 minutes ago) |
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I'm probably more on board with an anti-free will lady (determinism), which seems to be what she's about. I didn't click the link above.
Buddhism takes a middle way with determinism. 'We' don't change things because there's no doer that stands apart from the doing. Still, things change.
When an itch arises, we scratch. We don't choose to scratch or not to scratch, unless, other conditions make that choice for us. Like doing sitting meditation, we might not scratch. But that's not a 'choice'. It's the interaction between multiple conditions inhibiting the scratch reflex.
Another example, when we're asleep we fart. When awake and in polite company, we might not. But it's the context (conditions) determining the choice. Not a separate unchanging self that lives in our heads somehow apart from those conditions.
The illusion of free will is so ingrained though that I felt like I had tourett's the first time I broke through the body/mind dichotomy. Like, my body was moving itself. Over time, I started to trust that 'someone else' wasn't moving 'my body' around. That it was just my body moving itself around when 'I' got out of the way.
That breakthrough was on vaped DMT coming down off LSD. I stretched, but it didn't feel like me stretching. I danced, but it didn't feel like me dancing. It felt like I had turned 'control' over to the DMT elves and that they were doing it 'for me'. There was no alternate dimension. Just, right here, right now. In my living room. Music pumping and my body dancing, like dancing was one long stretch that I was no more in control of than a yawn I couldn't fight.
Now, I cultivate that sense of flow with my body. And the division between tree frog's mind and tree frog's body has become more permeable. And I don't second guess myself nearly as often. Still learning though.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28631859 - 01/23/24 08:36 AM (4 days, 22 hours ago) |
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How beautiful it is to see and read others stories and opinions, it just shows how unique each is, following their own individual paths.
Yo syncro, nicely written! To add to all that I'd like to write, that no matter how you get to where you're at, once arrived that's it, there's nothing else, every second, every action, this whole existence, is actually that. There's no beginning or end, nothing that's done, nothing that's reached, nothing that's attained, that wasn't there already.
This also reminds me of another thread, in which was discussed, what came first, the student or the teacher. There's also another thread on free will floating around.
Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
So without any spiritual practices whatsoever, no explanation being given beforehand, it will happen to somebody regardless.
It's just the nature of the mind.
Probably our relation to nature and the entheogens that made this possible in the first place since we do have all the appropriate receptors for all kinds of bioactive compounds.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632029 - 01/23/24 11:02 AM (4 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Streaming in, and, streaming out.
I find I do that, especially in busy phases with the world, I run back and touch the Self as it were, then run away again.
Nb4 before people correct me and say you can never not touch it, so what I mean is going into a different place within, altered experience of meditative bent that reveals that which is not so evident in the normal waking state. And I agree they should be integrated making "the inner like the outer."
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28632044 - 01/23/24 11:19 AM (4 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Have you read much Dogen?
Your comment reminded me of this.
Quote:
To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad dharmas is delusion. That myriad dharmas come forth and illuminate the self is enlightenment.
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-genjo-koan/
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/23/24 11:20 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28632090 - 01/23/24 12:16 PM (4 days, 18 hours ago) |
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It kind of blends in, but yes. Maybe not much but have read Dogen. Effective quote.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28632129 - 01/23/24 01:01 PM (4 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
I was expecting something along these lines. So from one of my favourite books with regards to non dualism, no Vedanta or Buddhism this time, however it's forms part of both as well.
For the sake of the non dualist/conceptual side argument, and for educational purposes.
Who doesn't love the deeply beautiful flowing wordplay of Sufi mystics? 
Cecilia Twinch; Awḥad Al-dīn Balyānī - Know Yourself: An Explanation of the Oneness of Being;
Quote:
Because of this, the Prophet, God bless him and give him peace, said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He also said, I knew my Lord through my Lord. What the Prophet pointed out by that, is that you are not you but you are Him and there is no you. It is not that He enters into you or that you enter into Him, or that He comes out of you or that you come out of Him. That does not mean that you have being and you are qualified by this or that attribute. What is meant is that you never were and never will be, whether through yourself or through Him or in Him or with Him. You have neither ceased to be nor are you existent. You are Him and He is you, without any of these imperfections. If you know your existence in this way, then you know God, and if not, then not.
Most of those who claim to know God make the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of existence and on the passing away of that passing away. That is clearly an error and misconception. The knowledge of God does not require the passing away of existence or the passing away of that passing away because things have no existence and what does not exist cannot pass away. Passing away implies the prior existence of the thing that passes away. If you know yourself without existing and passing away, then you know God, and if not, then not.
By making the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of your existence and the passing away of that passing away, there is an affirmation of something other than God. The Prophet said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He did not say, Whoever annihilates their self, knows their Lord.
Your being is nothing and whatever is nothing cannot be placed in relationship to anything else, whether it is capable of passing away or not and whether it is existent or nonexistent. The Prophet alluded to the fact that you are nonexistent now as you were nonexistent before creation, because now is eternity-without-beginning and now is eternity-without-end and now is timelessness. God is the very being of eternity-withoutbeginning, eternity-without-end and timelessness even though in reality there is no eternity-without-beginning, eternity-without-end or timelessness. If it were otherwise, He would not be alone, without any associate. However, it is necessary for Him to be alone without any associate because any associate would exist through itself, and not through the being of God. Then that associate would not need God and would therefore be a second Lord, which is impossible. God has no associate, equal or like.
Whoever sees anything with God, whether coming out of Him or within Him, but dependent on Him by virtue of His lordship, has also made that thing an associate even though that associate depends on Him by virtue of His lordship. Whoever allows that there could be anything with God whether subsisting by itself or through Him, whether in a state of having passed away or the passing away of passing away - is far from breathing the scent of self-knowledge.
Because whoever accepts that there could be any being other than Him, yet subsisting through Him and in Him, then passing away in successive stages of passing away and passing away of passing away - which is polytheism upon polytheism and not knowledge of the self at all - is a polytheist [who believes in many gods] and does not know God or themselves.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28632165 - 01/23/24 01:59 PM (4 days, 17 hours ago) |
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I've been reading a bit of systems sciences as well as reading some of Bhikkhu Analayo's stuff regarding signs, name and form and the arising of consciousness, etc. and I think I'd put it like this.
There's form, the material universe. Which can be described as interdependent and embedded processes.
There's name, the way we turn the above processes into signs or symbols that the mind can grasp easily. Not just language but the literal sense impression, tree. The way a tree hits you on all five aggregates. If you grow entheogens, cop is another sign that maybe better demonstrates what I mean by how it hits you.
Consciousness co-arises with name and form.
The error, I think, as in, where the sense of the doer arises, is in the naming. We make semi-permanent concepts around processes. Turning process into object.
The Buddha didn't say things don't exist. He said things are impermanent (process) and not self (interdependent, embedded, systemness).
Personally, I think once people get a taste of freedom and well-being, rather from entheogens or the dharma, it's hard to turn away from the path. Sometimes I resent both my practice and my psychedelics. But it's the way I sometimes resent having to breathe when I want to smoke cigarettes or hold my breath for long periods of time. Eventually, breathing always wins.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28632183 - 01/23/24 02:35 PM (4 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.
And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.
It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632262 - 01/23/24 03:57 PM (4 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Beautiful Sufi thing. Later I thought of the nature of the namaha in mantra which means 'honor to' but also 'not me', so, God or essence, not me, which that God feller was so driving.
Here's a standard I considered in whether one 'needs' practices, improvement, or not (including entheogens if chosen...) 
In Vedanta again we have the all described as satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So bliss is foundational, one with existence, one with consciousness. It is not some extra thing we seek but it is realized.
Asking ourselves if we have self-knowledge, we can say, do I exist, am I conscious? These are easy. Then is asked, do I know bliss, am I in it?
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632847 - 01/24/24 05:16 AM (4 days, 1 hour ago) |
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To further clarify my previous post, and to avoid some misconceptions/misunderstandings, I'll add some additional info on this, and why there's no "you" "cultivating" anything in the end from the non dual/conceptual viewpoint, I'm using sources I have easily available at the moment, don't really have time to dig deep, hopefully it'll get the point across in a clear manner anyway. Lets start with a modern day Canadian Theravada master and how it's explained to a layperson:
Ven. Yuttadhammo;
Quote:
In Theravada Buddhism we recognize two levels of truth; conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca). Conventional truth relies on a spatio-temporal paradigm, in which there exist people, places, and things. It is the level on which "you" and "I" exist, and it is the level on which a "person" becomes "enlightened". None of this has anything to do with the characteristic of non-self, which works on the level of ultimate truth. Ultimate truth relies on an experiential paradigm, in which there exists only the momentary experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, or thinking.
So, the answer to "who becomes enlightened?" is "a being becomes enlightened." As to how that can be reconciled with the teaching on non-self, there is really no conflict, since non-self describes a characteristic of ultimate reality, at which level concepts like "being" or "enlightened" have no place.
Then let's check a ancient Vedanta master and scholar:
Gaudapada's Karika on the Mandukya Upanishad - 2-32;
Quote:
The world never really emerged, nor will it undergo dissolution.
There's really no one who's bound, no one seeking enlightenment, and no one who becomes enlightened.
This is the highest truth.
Lets check another source, a ancient Zen master:
Keizan Jokin;
Quote:
It should be clear to all that the Buddhas and patriarchs have never 'gained' satori. It is equally true that no ignorant person has ever 'gone' astray. Whether awakened or not, one is free. In the awakening of the Bodhi-mind there is neither beginning nor end; while in this mind there is no scale of worth: Buddha and sentient man are as one, being freely and unconditionally just as they are.
And another just in case, a ancient Theravada master and scholar:
Buddhaghosa - Path of Purification - Visuddhimagga - XVI. 90;
Quote:
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.
And just to make it clear what the (no/non) self within Buddhism is:
Nāgārjuna’s Treatise on the Middle Way (rtsa shes/dbu ma’i bstan bcos, madhyamakashāstra, XXVII.27);
Quote:
When it is taken that there is no self Except the appropriated [aggregates], The appropriated [aggregates] themselves are the self. If so, your self is non-existent.
Chandrakīrti’s Supplement (VI.120ab);
Quote:
There is no self other than the aggregates because, Apart from the aggregates, its conception does not exist.
What then are the Five Aggregates? -Form is defined as that which is formable. -Sensation is defined as that which is felt in experience. -Perception is defined as the apprehension of attributes in objects. -Conditioning factors are defined as compound processes. -Consciousness is defined as that which cognizes objects. Further info here.
This should also make it clear exactly what the (no/non) self is within Buddhism, and that it's obviously not a nihilistic viewpoint or concept, but that it sounds awfully familiar to chapter 1 from the Kena Upanishad.
So then what, if there's no "me" or "you" to speak of ultimately anyway, what exactly am I and are we then?
Adi Shankara - Nirvana Shatakam;
Quote:
I am not any aspect of the mind like the intellect, the ego or the memory, I am not the organs of hearing, tasting, smelling or seeing, I am not the space, nor the earth, nor fire, nor air, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am not the Vital Life Energy (Prana), nor the Five Vital Airs (manifestations of Prana), I am not the seven essential ingredients nor the 5 sheaths of the body, I am not any of the body parts, like the mouth, the hands, the feet, etc., I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
There is no hatred nor passion in me, no greed nor delusion, There is no pride, nor jealousy in me, I am not identified with my duty, wealth, lust or liberation, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am not virtue nor vice, not pleasure or pain, I need no mantras, no pilgrimage, no scriptures or rituals, I am not the experience, not the object of experience, not even the one who experiences, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)....
I am not bound by death and its fear, not by caste or creed, I have no father, nor mother, or even birth, I am not a relative, nor a friend, nor a teacher nor a student, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am devoid of duality, my form is formlessness, I am omnipresent, I exist everywhere, pervading all senses, I am neither attached, neither free nor limited, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
Wish I had some more time to check in my sources, because I'm not really satisfied and I know there's a text explaining this even better, ah well, it is what it is.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 2
#28633005 - 01/24/24 08:10 AM (3 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.
And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.
It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.
This sounds right to me.
I've had such experiences multiple times with entheogens but it's much easier to mentally dismiss.
I had one meditation experience where I was doing dry insight work on the sense of self. Tracking them down, investigating it until it dissolved as not self. Moving on to the next place it arose. For a moment there was a gap. Just sense impressions flowing without a center. Meditative 'ego death'.
I've gone back and forth on if that was stream entry. Either way it was impossible to unsee and very hard to replicate with dry insight work.
I can get to boundless awareness now pretty easy using annapanasati. And generally hold myself more gently and take myself less seriously.
But I was a huge mess when I started practicing. And now I'm a big mess that can at least laugh at himself and show himself some compassion. So, that's quite an improvement. Rather I'm selfing or not.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633012 - 01/24/24 08:17 AM (3 days, 22 hours ago) |
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This also all reminds me somewhat of the story of Huineng.
Quote:
Only Shenxiu wrote a poem, anonymously on the wall in the middle of the night.[6] It stated:[7]
身是菩提樹, The body is a Bodhi tree, 心如明鏡臺。 The mind a standing mirror bright. 時時勤拂拭, At all times polish it diligently, 勿使惹塵埃。 And let no dust alight.
After having read this poem aloud to him, Hui-neng asked an officer to write another gatha on the wall for him, next to Shenxiu's, which stated:[8]
菩提本無樹, Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree; 明鏡亦非臺。 The bright mirror is also not a stand. 本來無一物, Fundamentally there is not a single thing — 何處惹塵埃。 Where could any dust be attracted?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633022 - 01/24/24 08:30 AM (3 days, 22 hours ago) |
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"I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633098 - 01/24/24 09:38 AM (3 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: "I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"

Well I'm pretty sure there's a text floating about somewhere saying it is space/spacious so no worries
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633129 - 01/24/24 10:12 AM (3 days, 20 hours ago) |
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That with Longchenpa, space as enlightened intent, stuck with me. Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633161 - 01/24/24 10:43 AM (3 days, 20 hours ago) |
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I'm just getting into Longchenpa but also find a lot of resonance there.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 2
#28633178 - 01/24/24 11:03 AM (3 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Longchenpa
Quote:
tree frog said: Longchenpa
A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:
I like the way she reads
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28633231 - 01/24/24 12:08 PM (3 days, 19 hours ago) |
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That's where I first heard him. I ordered a translation and commentary called maya yoga but haven't gotten into it yet.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28633262 - 01/24/24 12:29 PM (3 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Just read the below again and wanted to post, but see you guys already discussing Dzogchen. That's a perfect example indeed! I can highly recommend Longchenpa The Seven Treasuries book series translated by Richard Barron. It's as if Longchenpa speaks to you and explains everything step by step in all detail. I love it!
Karl Brunnhölzl - A Lullaby to Awaken the Heart: The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra and Its Tibetan Commentaries - The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra for Recitation;
Quote:
This is from the nineteenth chapter in the Tantra That Teaches the Great Perfection as Samantabhadra's Unobstructed Awakened Mind, which teaches that through making this powerful aspiration prayer, all sentient beings cannot help but awaken.
HO!
Everything in samsara and nirvana that can possibly appear has a single ground, two paths, and two results-- the miraculous displays of awareness and unawareness. Through the aspiration prayer of Samantabhadra, may all awaken in a fully perfect manner in the palace of the dharmadhatu.
The ground of all is unconditioned-- the self-arising, inexpressible, vast spaciousness without the names "samsara" or "nirvana." The awareness of just this is buddhahood; unaware, sentient beings wander in samsara. May all beings of the three realms be aware of the reality of the inexpressible ground.
Quote:
syncro said: Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
Muju - Shaseki-shu (Collection of Stone and Sand) - 101. Buddha's Zen;
Quote:
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
Quote:
Freedom said: A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:
I like the way she reads
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi
One of my favorite channels on YouTube! Also check out her other playlists! She's very eclectic!
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633370 - 01/24/24 01:54 PM (3 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Is that the same channel you recommended to me a while back? It was where I heard the space intent quote and posted it in the quotes thread.
Quote:
spinvis said:
Quote:
syncro said: Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
Muju - Shaseki-shu (Collection of Stone and Sand) - 101. Buddha's Zen;
Quote:
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
I was trying to do a Diamond Sutra dialogue but glad you didn't reply in kind because I would have had to cheat and look at it to continue I think.
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