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InvisibleAsante
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A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. * 1
    #28630247 - 01/21/24 05:54 PM (6 days, 19 hours ago)




tl;dr - the universe is deterministic. plan b never was an option.

Feel free to discuss.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Asante] * 5
    #28630357 - 01/21/24 07:22 PM (6 days, 18 hours ago)

Well opinion is the right description :thumbup:. I found it ironic to suggest that people believing in free will is a problem while also proclaiming there is no choice in the matter. :lol:


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Kickle]
    #28630362 - 01/21/24 07:28 PM (6 days, 18 hours ago)

hahaha!


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630629 - 01/22/24 03:12 AM (6 days, 10 hours ago)

Its a problem that needs to solve itself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Asante]
    #28630666 - 01/22/24 05:17 AM (6 days, 8 hours ago)

we can watch without placing bets then


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630745 - 01/22/24 07:58 AM (6 days, 5 hours ago)

we might not be able to help placing bets.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Asante]
    #28630865 - 01/22/24 10:13 AM (6 days, 3 hours ago)

betting is a hard habit to quit, understandable.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28630923 - 01/22/24 11:09 AM (6 days, 2 hours ago)

causality is hard to break.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Asante] * 2
    #28631585 - 01/22/24 11:16 PM (5 days, 14 hours ago)

Thing is though, quantum mechanics.

The positions of electrons while in orbit around a nucleus are random, not deterministic. This is what Einstein had an objection to, the famous "God doesn't play dice" quote. Before the measurement of their position, there are only probabilities for where electrons will be, and these probabilities are inherently not deterministic.

Schrödinger's cat is based on the same thing at a larger scale: nuclear decay is random, not deterministic. It is true that many things in the universe are deterministic, but other things are based on probability. The universe has both.

We'd need to understand a lot more about the nature of consciousness and the brain in order to say anything conclusive about free will, but at the very least, it may not be deterministic. It could be random based on a set of probabilities.

And, in any case, it depends on how you define free will.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #28631588 - 01/22/24 11:20 PM (5 days, 14 hours ago)

when we say random

what we mean is we do not understand fully how and why the positions are what they are, but we can be statistically accommodating about it and we get away with saying it is non-deterministic. (in a way that we understand)

I side with Einstein, determinism holds but we have not grasped the matter fully yet.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: Asante]
    #28631701 - 01/23/24 04:51 AM (5 days, 8 hours ago)

FW is not a thing that exists or does not exist. it is not an object you can possess. it is just a feeling or necessary illusion, sort of like the the notion that objects are solid.
society depends on the notion so folks can be held accountable, and grow up to be responsible. philosophers and physicists over complicate the so called 'problem'.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: laughingdog]
    #28631726 - 01/23/24 05:53 AM (5 days, 7 hours ago)

we still have to be able to navigate the complexity of legal responsibility as individuals.
this is still possible OBVIOUSLY without having will or free will.
we can learn to sense what is right or wrong and to follow a good way rather than a bad way of getting what we need.

Navigation is the key - those without moral compass are removed from society one way or another - that is the legal issue - or they can negotiate repayment of damages.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: nooneman]
    #28631958 - 01/23/24 10:08 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Thing is though, quantum mechanics.

The positions of electrons while in orbit around a nucleus are random, not deterministic.





Thing is though, "random" quantum fluctuations were extensively discussed in the video and taken in the equation.

You didnt watch it :naughty:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A scientifically informed opinion on why free will doesn't exist. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28631965 - 01/23/24 10:13 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when we say random

what we mean is we do not understand fully how and why the positions are what they are, but we can be statistically accommodating about it and we get away with saying it is non-deterministic. (in a way that we understand)

I side with Einstein, determinism holds but we have not grasped the matter fully yet.





That what identifies as God says that the deterministic "block universe" holds true, but those random fluctuations are subject to his will and he uses those to carve universes out of the void of all things, roads for us to follow.

Every seeming empty space holds the totality of everything, but its carved away by the ripple of time we are riding that makes it seem empty. Its solid black hole.


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