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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: connectedcosmos] * 2
    #28618318 - 01/12/24 05:09 AM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

The morrow man escapes into dreamland!

Rosary  crosses.

Building, benefit.

Money shattered and monet spent.


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InvisibleAsante
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28628706 - 01/20/24 03:21 PM (7 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
You are your agency..

Do we have to debate this?





The whole universe is Me.


that wasnt the ego speaking




--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28629410 - 01/21/24 04:11 AM (7 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.

In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.

This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.

The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!



Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life - SEPTEMBER 10 - The Thinker Is the Thought;
Quote:

Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker.




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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28629616 - 01/21/24 09:18 AM (6 days, 21 hours ago)

On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28629787 - 01/21/24 12:09 PM (6 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Ramana Maharshi;
“How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”




Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.

The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.

Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28630032 - 01/21/24 03:37 PM (6 days, 15 hours ago)

I see now how this relates back to something we talked about previously in another thread funnily enough. Since both come from books I'm reading, I'm going to post a few more excerpts from them to give us a glimpse in what they're pointing at.

Quote:

syncro said:
On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.




Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life: Daily Meditations with Krishnamurti - AUGUST 1 - Truth Is a State of Being;
Quote:

There is no path to truth, and there are not two truths. Truth is not of the past or of the present, it is timeless; and the man who quotes the truth of the Buddha, of Shankara, of the Christ, or who merely repeats what I am saying, will not find truth, because repetition is not truth. Repetition is a lie. Truth is a state of being which arises when the mind—which seeks to divide, to be exclusive, which can think only in terms of results, of achievement—has come to an end. Only then will there be truth. The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection, and the pursuit of that projection, however noble, is a form of self-worship. Such a being is worshipping himself, and therefore he cannot know truth. Truth is to be known only when we understand the whole process of the mind, that is, when there is no strife.




Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life: Daily Meditations with Krishnamurti - DECEMBER 25 - The Way of Meditation;
Quote:

Is truth something final, absolute, fixed? We would like it to be absolute because then we could take shelter in it. We would like it to be permanent because then we could hold on to it, find happiness in it. But is truth absolute, continuous, to be experienced over and over again? The repetition of experience is the mere cultivation of memory, is it not? In moments of quietness, I may experience a certain truth, but if I cling to that experience through memory and make it absolute, fixed—is that truth? Is truth the continuation, the cultivation of memory? Or, is truth to be found only when the mind is utterly still? When the mind is not caught in memories, not cultivating memory as the center of recognition, but is aware of everything I am saying, everything I am doing in my relationships, in my activities, seeing the truth of everything as it is from moment to moment—surely, that is the way of meditation, is it not? There is comprehension only when the mind is still, and the mind cannot be still as long as it is ignorant of itself. That ignorance is not dispelled through any form of discipline, through pursuing any authority, ancient or modern. Belief only creates resistance, isolation, and where there is isolation, there is no possibility of tranquillity. Tranquillity comes only when I understand the whole process of myself—the various entities in conflict with each other which compose the “me.” As that is an arduous task, we turn to others to learn various tricks, which we call meditation. The tricks of the mind are not meditation. Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without meditation, there is no self-knowledge.





Quote:

syncro said:
Quote:

Ramana Maharshi;
“How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”




Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.

The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.

Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.




So, from the same book as from the quote, it basically continues with the following.

Ramana Maharshi;
Quote:

That which you take to be your normal state is, on the contrary, an abnormal state. . . . Do you have to search for a long time before finding this ‘I’ that is none other than yourself? That is what I mean when I declare that no spiritual discipline (sadhana) is necessary in order to realise the Self. All one asks of you is that you abstain from doing anything whatever (of a disciplinary nature), that you remain calm, and finally that you be that which you really are. You have only to free yourself from the hypnotic spell in which your abnormal state holds you.




Ah well, all this relates in turn again to another book I'm reading on sudden illumination. Very interesting topic! And you're absolutely right as well syncro!


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InvisibleAsante
Mage
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28630630 - 01/22/24 03:13 AM (6 days, 3 hours ago)



--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #28630686 - 01/22/24 05:59 AM (6 days, 1 hour ago)

The free will lady! To arms! Release the frog!

:wizard::pierre1:


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
    #28630688 - 01/22/24 06:10 AM (6 days, 59 minutes ago)

I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.


Edited by syncro (01/22/24 07:12 AM)


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28630708 - 01/22/24 06:57 AM (6 days, 12 minutes ago)

JDK: "The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection."

First of all, he is doing repetition, and giving sadhana in the nature of 'self-inquiry', what is the term, vichāra. Second, it describing only half of the process of such as mantra yoga, and not the fruit, which is self-knowledge, atma vidya. As the heart continues to beat while there is life and in vichāra, in a ripened practice the mantra continues, and it acts like a magnetic field as it were, aligning the scattered forces to one. It is the same.

From the quote of the Kena Upanishad: "That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind--that alone is Brahman, not what people worship."

Of course, it is also in what people worship. I'm reminded of seeing recently a quote by a teacher, paraphrased, "All things have essence of light."

The formless type teachings are appealing to me, but saying ways of forms and symbols do not bring the same just says to me they are not practiced to fruition by the speaker. And vichara is a practice, repetition imo, to be brought to fruition, as Ramana said, our normal state is abnormal.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28630799 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (5 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

"Although the self is at all times and
in all things, yet it cannot shine in
everything, but will shine only in
the consciousness, just as a
reflection will appear only
in polished surfaces."

"One should separate the grain
of the pure inner self from the chaff
of the body and- other sheaths
by the threshing of reason."

Atmabodha




reason, love, concentration, dance, art, works, entheogens


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28630800 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (5 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
It is the same.




True that, they are! Btw Krishnamurti also describes the process in full somewhere else but that's not really what's important here.

So it comes back again to wether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary or not. And does it require any concentration, effort, repetition, ripening, etc... or not.

Both are true, depending on the person.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28630952 - 01/22/24 11:33 AM (5 days, 19 hours ago)

Interesting an inverted bifurcation though I'm stereotyping (not judging) - it seems those who seek through form and symbol tend more to the samadhis, void, other-non-worldly, while those who who are inclined to the formless approach in tathatas, mindfulness, tend to grounding in the world, nature, here and now with as it is. I know it's not accurate all the time as they do samadhis, and disappearance seekers have the natural mergings, ...


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
    #28631009 - 01/22/24 12:25 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

Not an accurate observation though. Say the yogis aim to subdue and transcend the five senses, and the tathata types discern the emptiness of all things. One is the other in effect. I guess it's a personal attraction if a tendency. Do nature people tend more to mindfulness paths, and do users of entheogens?


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Onlinetree frog
eats bugs


Registered: 09/14/23
Posts: 442
Loc: lives in trees
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28631021 - 01/22/24 12:33 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.




Why was I summoned?  I ducked out of the thread.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
    #28631135 - 01/22/24 02:37 PM (5 days, 16 hours ago)

The history of the great frog spirit - In the Ramayana there was a little frog in the mud of a river bank, and Lord Ram had rested his staff in the mud, imposing on the little frog, and Ram said, why didn't you say anything? It was because the frog knew who he was. In my mind the little frog became a great spirit who could swallow solar systems like flies. It would be no problem for him to swallow the free will lady.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis]
    #28631226 - 01/22/24 04:08 PM (5 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

whether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary




It depends on what one wants. An average person trying to make their way in the world, typically unhappy, worldly, suffering - they are the Buddha it is said, their mind is the essence. Do they need to do anything? Does it serve them to say they don't need to do anything, that they are it already? To say and receive that is not doing nothing. The insight changes one.

It depends on their constitution as said, preference. Can they chill in the now, or do they need that with the "Holy spirit and with fire?" Do they need to stoke the fire of tapas, cultivation? Sincere mindfulness is tapas and cultivation, redoing the neurons, as do entheogens presumably. Use of entheogens is not doing nothing.

So who actually does not practice? What is done without a goal of freedom, starting with getting food in the stomach, etc.?

A point I was thinking of was that all things have their source in their cause which is subtle, in light, if as was said, the gross elements, bodies. The sources of natural things are as much a part of nature and rightfully pursued by choice.

Can it be done without a serious pursuit? The guru's bowl floating upstream against the current, at that level seems to do so effortlessly. What mighty effort was involved? How much time taken, evolution?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28631591 - 01/22/24 11:28 PM (5 days, 7 hours ago)

A few days ago, while attempting to turn into some quickly moving, bustlingly flow of heavy traffic, an intuition mixed with emotion and notion along with the accompanying of being smack dab in the midst of a genuine (when aren't we, rly tho?) & imminently sensed  life or death situation looming overhead. Simply from cptsd just turning into a lane with hardly any room to squeeze in with the heavy flow of a near-stream of vehicular traffic in the way I needed to head at the time.  At the time things seemed for a short moment quite surreal; as if, we were in some permutation of the og labyrinth of the entirety of another sort of virgina still following that initial prime directive or something to that efx.

With some or all the vehicles & their drivers (self included) somewhat as if but haphazardly chaotic yet sperm squirming about  swimming blindly making up the flow as we go furthermore running headlong into whatever the gauntlet of prezygotic barriers lay in wait in order to defend from least able of the swimmers, and, so those that made it to their prize might be first to fully penetrate and fertilize a (symbolic) ripe ovum.  :shrug:

Then something dawned, nothing profound but it was hearty  in nature, one might could say we are alive here now? Then in a manner of speaking, we've already become stream winners - maybe just not in the way of the sotapanna. Either way, I thought, in some ways things haven't changed all too much, even though they have in some ways, on both the 'first in flight' to the egg (and passes the prezygotic exams barrier(s), etc) on that front.

One wants in, the other one wants out.
(sort of, i think that's an oversimplification of things putting it rather crudely)
And, with the latter once like approx. one(half) of the former.

Streaming in, and, streaming out.
Regardless of which - neither of each - Despite if winning or if losing, really do all that much, but there's more to it than that, but in a busy city where it can seem like so many are simultaneously are running around like chickens with their heads cut off going around & around until arriving at their 'destination' - more or less like so - until finally we eventually don't have to any longer.  I found it a refreshing relief overall, and even more so once finally returning safely back home to where the balance between relative peace, quite,  & harmony was appreciated (as per usual) once again, only a tid bit differently than the usual anew. Netti-Netti.

Anywho, and there's some randoms observation made of a tiniest slice of a moment in time during a day in the life.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Onlinetree frog
eats bugs


Registered: 09/14/23
Posts: 442
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28631676 - 01/23/24 03:40 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

It starts as a serious pursuit, as all projects done by the doer are.

The seriousness gives way to spontaneous action.

That's where the natural path and the path of mindfulness just becomes the path.

The easiest way to tell if someone has some enlightenment, rather a little or a lot, are they spontaneously joyful?  Are they funny without being sarcastic, crude, or hurtful?  And is all of this joy arising naturally out of the situation without pretense?

If I encounter a dharma teacher or other spiritual teacher without these qualities, I hop my ass the other direction.  No clue if free will lady fits that bill, but if so, consider her swallowed.

And thanks for the kind words about frogs.  I swallowed a whole universe once, but I was a great serpent that go.  Not a frog.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/23/24 03:57 AM)


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
Last seen: 28 seconds
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
    #28631746 - 01/23/24 06:27 AM (5 days, 42 minutes ago)

Just to say again about the free will lady, I like her and think she is a good professor. In her realm (physics) she destroys free will. Yet in all things determined so came this weird thing of intuition, hope, sense of self-direction and self-determination, the sense of free will. We've been through it a lot in these forums in recent years. In language and logic, no free will pretty much wins I think. Yet sitting here it still seems not to, in poetry land, wonder and expansion, stillness, potential, dharma and love, etc.


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