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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28624264 - 01/17/24 07:25 AM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

It does speak to the limitations of knowledge and of being human. There is utility in realism as the obvious (how things seem), and utility in being able to revise perception. I don't think there is a goal to believe or not believe. We are all believers in that sense but sure, we can also be questioners and discover the limitations of knowledge and being human.

At the same time, perceptions and working concepts are not inherently fully built models covered in glass and steel, ready to be demolished. Perhaps such models are sometimes built for target practice, which too might be a matter of utility.

That's why I lean rather than believe. Perhaps it is but a dream in which getting hit by a car is "game over", but as has been pointed out these non-subjective conditions seem substantial which is where the utility exists. Beyond that we have semantics to roll around in which is not a terrible thing but all participants probably practice care crossing the street. Whether that's because cars are real or not isn't the substantial bit.

I do get it, but I'm content to utilize perception and speak of how things seem without conjuring doubt... most of the time. I do like the idea of relationship being more fundamental that objects but don't see these perspectives as inherently in conflict but rather different orders of perception.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28624422 - 01/17/24 10:16 AM (11 days, 3 hours ago)

stars fading but we linger on dear


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28624800 - 01/17/24 04:24 PM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

I think where we land depends on if we think answers stifle curiosity or open gateways to further exploration.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28625382 - 01/17/24 10:49 PM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

I don't think you need to belive in reality for it to exist..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28625390 - 01/17/24 11:03 PM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I don't think you need to belive in reality for it to exist..



agreed.
just don't get in its way or on its bad side, and you will be fine.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28625449 - 01/18/24 12:26 AM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

That means reality is objective..

Subjectively i would like to be aligned with something that is objective..

And to further, is something that is objective true necessarily?


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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28625748 - 01/18/24 10:21 AM (10 days, 3 hours ago)

Wouldn't that mean it's subjective? Being subjected to reality, in whatever form that takes?

Belief =/= subjective experience


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28626472 - 01/18/24 08:47 PM (9 days, 16 hours ago)

Subjective, Objective ~ Perhaps best taken together as a relatively semi-or-maybe-quasi corrective means of an incomplete being's way to measure of 'what's?!' temporarily there by way of an otherwise transient other 'what?!', when what's is aspectual in nature to what to us is like maybe but a few mere portions of pure flowingness, slowed down just enough to wake to it grokking like the primordially eternality of energy's power as transformable scenery, maybe...indicative of an absoluteness with no bounds? Maybe not. 

To myself, the terms are almost like when an artist draws a shape, and can utilize variations of any imaginable shape to show *to define* some of the more difficult to depict aspects of anything/something.  Without which, may be nearly  impossible to *point out* - this has evolutionary value, it has great value to a species like ours, depending on where and when and how you decide to imagine what things might be like in any generation leading up to our own all the way back.  Pick something, imagine away - if in said hypothetical imaginary vision, you envision yourself with kin, then being able to discern & convey said discernment of unique variations with respect to either the source, the nature, or the locus ~ or even quality of something in experience only...even that has value.  Imagine, using something like being able to discern what only appears to oneself, and, what appears to those with the same basic genomic configurational settings for our current set of sensory organs - then share the knowledge  a tribe?  Idk, there can be a lot of practical uses for 'drawing a line' or 'outlining/tracing' a shape. 

While maybe *only mentally drawn (*but actually just only mental itself, seeing as the activity itself cannot appear without power, hence - energy based.  Excuse me, I mean bioelectrochemical based) via something like logicvision superimposed via mental imputation, invisible (to others, unless shared of using some skill or way to communicate about a thing, anything) , yet, also is  distinguishable wrt more rare, or, unique modes of being to that of a sentient organism such as ourselves...using a schema of sorts no less.
 
One/two of which is/are: 'Subjective /&/ Objective' (perhaps , not all really 'there' forever, persay.  But, also not departing from us, that is, it is not there without the brain:mind of man to mine thereof of the aboutness about us that's simply there.  Otherwise are there any 'true lines' - first we'd have to agree upon what is a line, etc, etc and go from there.

Imhoe, there is in some sense 'boundaries' or lines, or form, but also, there isn't any I personally know of that remain as we perceive them as persisting in nature of the same form as perceived of by one of our kind.   

At least, not forever at anyways - not for very long in the 'grand scheme' (Neato...look at what we just wrapped right back around to right there, this still right here...) anyways.

We've the power to draw of nature, (in a manner of speaking) a power evolved of nature, an invisible hallucinatory power of simulation of sorts.  What better multimodal, multifaceted formless form is there than that which can't be detected directly by the sensory organs of 'other' species?  Especially the one's wanting to eat us to live...and us them, etc.  I mean, we can not only gain an advantage while we're at 'rest', but actually (potentially) learn...from an paradoxical 'invisibility' advantage, shone only to the organism in and of itself.  How else does a weakling species like ours come this far?  Just look at us today!  Nearly suiciding daily, but having come just over the hill behind which we otherwise might've nearly died out just as soon on by other species looming in the 'shadows' (and the light) too..... It's fucking incredible, it's amazing.

Meanwhile mind, uh, is where, again?
So yeah, virtually, there's an aboutness of these concepts holding some heavy weighted water... of some otherwise almost completely empty matter...but that's neither here, nor there, now is it?
*sry, i fucked an edit - so this is going to disrupt the coherency of this post...well, anyways.
Using said concepts for oneself, or, for conveying intricacies of nature, of space-time while its continually flowing as pure continuity...

So, these rather deceptive, yet calculative, trigonomic, algebraically valuable expressions available to us via a simple slicing of the infinite info availed to us of by pure virtue of being alive to experience life as we do (for now).  Subject/Object distinction into classes (like the two arms of an average human body as we know of them today) by merely folding something into more easily digestible pieces, simpler, more '(de)finitely' sliced piecemeal version better fit for consumption/comprehension/understanding of the world in and around us ~ Objective and Subjective: like the tool weilded of a naturally evolved creature with some artistic & mathematical skill (due to having the correspondent means (ie, an enabling) anatomical region capable of such measurement. 

Insofar as slicing up something enormously too much for mankind's understanding...x PRN' ...again, without our 'clever inventions' (outer-tech-wise, or inter/intra-tech-wise or organically, or, as integral parts of an organism to doing 'such and such') some 'things' might not be as predictable by measuring with say...the some tea leaves (if you know what I mean by that, if not, fuck it) to point out something and another thing to another of our own kin, or just to inform ourselves of something about nature or of nature - anything - or - to inform another person of.
Using an examples, imitations, and comparisons until two individuals of the same species can 'see' or 'define' with their mental imputive ability, the space of said shape as said shape (unless - you know - there's some health condition(s) and or also maybe, idk, highly unique genetics at play: ie. 'in the way'?, :blah:, :blah:, etc)

It's just neat to think of things in all sorts of new ways, how come? why? because it's literally amazingly fucking cooling off at both ends, with each end as unending.  Ah, right, the real reason is.... because any universe with psychedelics?
That (this) universe. fucking. rules.

*Southern baptist/presbyterian preachers'...

(only..not confined to his nor any one 'static' dogma - incomparabley uncool compared to an ever adaptive imperative, just saying...ok, so this preacher voice is, uh.. just using the religion like a stray wild art found in the midst of nature as is...simply for practicing truthfully of some madness due to the sheer amount of love for said universe capable of 'causing' psychedelics to appear, fuck yea.:geordinod:)

voice: can i getten Amen?! *  :lol:

Regardless of truth or untruth, real or unreal; they're both marvelously clever, highly useful, little-big invention(s), in a sense, or a manner of speaking.  In that way - I think they're pretty darn helpful in some ways.  :thumbup:

Also, (note: going to prose mode, sry! ha) telling of the nature of things as bits of compiled stories from touring of what happens when the enfolded trace's back upon itself unto the lingerings of an unfurling, partly askew, partly not you, parted so neatly it tells of the invariable markings of an unmistakable very shiftyshaper...
!A'Visavia!
Almost..as if like a fungus o sorts. 
The (not really) fungus amongus! (oh me! oh my!)
simultaneously cast as an interestingly interwebbing of intranetting genophenomorphia: sharing of a likeness with more surprisingly different differences as spaced so queerly throughout the odds of the oh so (h)e(a)ve-enly hell of la familia.

:chefskiss:

Like the shifting sands of 'time'...on the one hand;
with the shiftyshaper on only remaining hand ~ as each hand come together to shake onwards for a moment awhile longer betwixt uncondtionally naturalness of timeless temporality itself and the big empty; oh, 'they must be in on it together' ~ Said: the already fallen land of our own mortality, upon which we may find our feet moving in the stillness of standing before passing through the always presence of an already aboutness always present - much like the very suchness, as made-up for real, but only for a time together as one sensing two hands ~ praying another two come and pry them open for goodness' sake, man.

Before even firing a single signal with which to lift a finger to point out the already raised hand's housing as inquisitively minded matter hauntingly mixed in like an already cooked deliciously imaginative cake batter growing in & out of a sunburned moonbeam.

Translation:  Homies, stuff was here before us. 
We evolved of some of said stuff. 
If we continue to evolve over the generations, or somehow remain somewhat as we are - although even that can't last forever - via pure technological adaptation (since, even that would genomically effect us over enough time, since its not apart from the flow of things ever flowing...)
Hence, even if we don't 'make it- make it', in a 'our species survives as (x,y,or,z) over 100 trillion kalpas....
To put it extremely crudely....

The shit(show) will still be flow(er)ing...:cheers:

~{Re(x)[infinity]surrected}{mindvomit}~


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (01/18/24 10:01 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626559 - 01/18/24 10:18 PM (9 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Subjective, Objective ~ Perhaps best taken together as a relatively semi-or-maybe-quasi corrective means of an incomplete being's way to measure of 'what's?!' temporarily there by way of an otherwise transient other 'what?!', when what's is aspectual in nature to what to us is like maybe but a few mere portions of pure flowingness, slowed down just enough to wake to it grokking like the primordially eternality of energy's power as transformable scenery, maybe...indicative of an absoluteness with no bounds? Maybe not. 

To myself, the terms are almost like when an artist draws a shape, and can utilize variations of any imaginable shape to show *to define* some of the more difficult to depict aspects of anything/something.  Without which, may be nearly  impossible to *point out* - this has evolutionary value, it has great value to a species like ours, depending on where and when and how you decide to imagine what things might be like in any generation leading up to our own all the way back.  Pick something, imagine away - if in said hypothetical imaginary vision, you envision yourself with kin, then being able to discern & convey said discernment of unique variations with respect to either the source, the nature, or the locus ~ or even quality of something in experience only...even that has value.  Imagine, using something like being able to discern what only appears to oneself, and, what appears to those with the same basic genomic configurational settings for our current set of sensory organs - then share the knowledge  a tribe?  Idk, there can be a lot of practical uses for 'drawing a line' or 'outlining/tracing' a shape. 

While maybe *only mentally drawn (*but actually just only mental itself, seeing as the activity itself cannot appear without power, hence - energy based.  Excuse me, I mean bioelectrochemical based) via something like logicvision superimposed via mental imputation, invisible (to others, unless shared of using some skill or way to communicate about a thing, anything) , yet, also is  distinguishable wrt more rare, or, unique modes of being to that of a sentient organism such as ourselves...using a schema of sorts no less.
 
One/two of which is/are: 'Subjective /&/ Objective' (perhaps , not all really 'there' forever, persay.  But, also not departing from us, that is, it is not there without the brain:mind of man to mine thereof of the aboutness about us that's simply there.  Otherwise are there any 'true lines' - first we'd have to agree upon what is a line, etc, etc and go from there.

Imhoe, there is in some sense 'boundaries' or lines, or form, but also, there isn't any I personally know of that remain as we perceive them as persisting in nature of the same form as perceived of by one of our kind.   

At least, not forever at anyways - not for very long in the 'grand scheme' (Neato...look at what we just wrapped right back around to right there, this still right here...) anyways.

We've the power to draw of nature, (in a manner of speaking) a power evolved of nature, an invisible hallucinatory power of simulation of sorts.  What better multimodal, multifaceted formless form is there than that which can't be detected directly by the sensory organs of 'other' species?  Especially the one's wanting to eat us to live...and us them, etc.  I mean, we can not only gain an advantage while we're at 'rest', but actually (potentially) learn...from an paradoxical 'invisibility' advantage, shone only to the organism in and of itself.  How else does a weakling species like ours come this far?  Just look at us today!  Nearly suiciding daily, but having come just over the hill behind which we otherwise might've nearly died out just as soon on by other species looming in the 'shadows' (and the light) too..... It's fucking incredible, it's amazing.

Meanwhile mind, uh, is where, again?
So yeah, virtually, there's an aboutness of these concepts holding some heavy weighted water... of some otherwise almost completely empty matter...but that's neither here, nor there, now is it?
*sry, i fucked an edit - so this is going to disrupt the coherency of this post...well, anyways.
Using said concepts for oneself, or, for conveying intricacies of nature, of space-time while its continually flowing as pure continuity...

So, these rather deceptive, yet calculative, trigonomic, algebraically valuable expressions available to us via a simple slicing of the infinite info availed to us of by pure virtue of being alive to experience life as we do (for now).  Subject/Object distinction into classes (like the two arms of an average human body as we know of them today) by merely folding something into more easily digestible pieces, simpler, more '(de)finitely' sliced piecemeal version better fit for consumption/comprehension/understanding of the world in and around us ~ Objective and Subjective: like the tool weilded of a naturally evolved creature with some artistic & mathematical skill (due to having the correspondent means (ie, an enabling) anatomical region capable of such measurement. 

Insofar as slicing up something enormously too much for mankind's understanding...x PRN' ...again, without our 'clever inventions' (outer-tech-wise, or inter/intra-tech-wise or organically, or, as integral parts of an organism to doing 'such and such') some 'things' might not be as predictable by measuring with say...the some tea leaves (if you know what I mean by that, if not, fuck it) to point out something and another thing to another of our own kin, or just to inform ourselves of something about nature or of nature - anything - or - to inform another person of.
Using an examples, imitations, and comparisons until two individuals of the same species can 'see' or 'define' with their mental imputive ability, the space of said shape as said shape (unless - you know - there's some health condition(s) and or also maybe, idk, highly unique genetics at play: ie. 'in the way'?, :blah:, :blah:, etc)

It's just neat to think of things in all sorts of new ways, how come? why? because it's literally amazingly fucking cooling off at both ends, with each end as unending.  Ah, right, the real reason is.... because any universe with psychedelics?
That (this) universe. fucking. rules.

*Southern baptist/presbyterian preachers'...

(only..not confined to his nor any one 'static' dogma - incomparabley uncool compared to an ever adaptive imperative, just saying...ok, so this preacher voice is, uh.. just using the religion like a stray wild art found in the midst of nature as is...simply for practicing truthfully of some madness due to the sheer amount of love for said universe capable of 'causing' psychedelics to appear, fuck yea.:geordinod:)

voice: can i getten Amen?! *  :lol:

Regardless of truth or untruth, real or unreal; they're both marvelously clever, highly useful, little-big invention(s), in a sense, or a manner of speaking.  In that way - I think they're pretty darn helpful in some ways.  :thumbup:

Also, (note: going to prose mode, sry! ha) telling of the nature of things as bits of compiled stories from touring of what happens when the enfolded trace's back upon itself unto the lingerings of an unfurling, partly askew, partly not you, parted so neatly it tells of the invariable markings of an unmistakable very shiftyshaper...
!A'Visavia!
Almost..as if like a fungus o sorts. 
The (not really) fungus amongus! (oh me! oh my!)
simultaneously cast as an interestingly interwebbing of intranetting genophenomorphia: sharing of a likeness with more surprisingly different differences as spaced so queerly throughout the odds of the oh so (h)e(a)ve-enly hell of la familia.

:chefskiss:

Like the shifting sands of 'time'...on the one hand;
with the shiftyshaper on only remaining hand ~ as each hand come together to shake onwards for a moment awhile longer betwixt uncondtionally naturalness of timeless temporality itself and the big empty; oh, 'they must be in on it together' ~ Said: the already fallen land of our own mortality, upon which we may find our feet moving in the stillness of standing before passing through the always presence of an already aboutness always present - much like the very suchness, as made-up for real, but only for a time together as one sensing two hands ~ praying another two come and pry them open for goodness' sake, man.

Before even firing a single signal with which to lift a finger to point out the already raised hand's housing as inquisitively minded matter hauntingly mixed in like an already cooked deliciously imaginative cake batter growing in & out of a sunburned moonbeam.

Translation:  Homies, stuff was here before us. 
We evolved of some of said stuff. 
If we continue to evolve over the generations, or somehow remain somewhat as we are - although even that can't last forever - via pure technological adaptation (since, even that would genomically effect us over enough time, since its not apart from the flow of things ever flowing...)
Hence, even if we don't 'make it- make it', in a 'our species survives as (x,y,or,z) over 100 trillion kalpas....
To put it extremely crudely....

The shit(show) will still be flow(er)ing...:cheers:

~{Re(x)[infinity]surrected}{mindvomit}~





I am the subject, the world is the object, the nature of my experience is a subject of the object. What more do we need?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28626564 - 01/18/24 10:26 PM (9 days, 15 hours ago)

Sltn:fxn.  If the shoe fits?  Take a hike. :cheers:

  As for Need?  I think my body is naturally about to melt and mind meld with that of the goddess (version) of sleep.  :thumbup:

Lastly...

I
Need
You
All
To
Keep
On
Only
Being
Truly
You.

G'nit.
:heart:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626572 - 01/18/24 10:39 PM (9 days, 15 hours ago)

Sltn:fxn?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28626679 - 01/19/24 02:16 AM (9 days, 11 hours ago)

:pm:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626779 - 01/19/24 06:28 AM (9 days, 7 hours ago)

g'mornin.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28626789 - 01/19/24 06:46 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

G'morning.  I finally got some bitter but sweet  ZZZ's in. (# sleep paralysis ftw)

Thank goodness, in approx an hour or so I'll get a glimpse at how yesterday's events either left a mess behind or went without too much of a trace.. fun times in the making fo'sho.

Speaking of works...

I like some what you did with what I think(?) that you might've were going for with some of some of the artwork you shared just last night :thumbup:(iirc, in an "Ai-themed Art" question posed in another PS&P thread by Orgone Conclusion (so?), also - his was pretty cool too btw)

For the sake of my linguistic difficulties, and for all beings...please continue helping in your own little way to make the vulcan mind meld a reality for humanity.  just so long as it's done kindly, may the force Art be with you, RGV. :starwars:
.:thumbup:

:makesmecry:


peace

:atom::poke::burst:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626798 - 01/19/24 07:04 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

even if I were a vulcan, it only would work if contact was made, ergo vulcans do not shake hands.
and being betazoid is unappealing, they take off all their clothes at weddings.
words will have to suffice.

yeah drawing loosely helps a lot for me, and makes me more tolerant of and interested in loose verbal expression as well. (except for engineering - dang those Ikea drawings are the worst!)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineskOsH
Functionally dysfunctional
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Registered: 07/03/19
Posts: 1,372
Loc: the PNW
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28628471 - 01/20/24 11:49 AM (8 days, 1 hour ago)

Ultimate reality is not something we exist in. It's just more than likely to be a simulation.

After many trips,I have come to realize that my body, is just a vessel, and that everything gets recycled.

Why don't I ever remember a past life? Well, if I did have a past life, it would have had,to happen in a different universe, in a different timeline.

When I combined shrooms with lsd, I just saw the ultimate truth. It's very clearly simulated. I just don't know how it is, for now.

It doesn't change my thoughts regarding reality, though


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: skOsH] * 1
    #28628546 - 01/20/24 12:52 PM (8 days, 48 minutes ago)

I have no way of imagining the meaning of ultimate reality.
do you mean the last reality we experience, or the reality that eventually everyone agrees about?

ultimate just doesn't make sense on anything so widely scoped.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Makaveli 12,658 64 03/09/01 01:18 PM
by holographic mind
* Your mind creates your reality
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* How you benefit others
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Jenny 2,309 41 12/11/03 08:14 PM
by bumski

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