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InvisibleKiwi89
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Registered: 06/16/20
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Kiwi89]
    #28117378 - 12/30/22 11:20 AM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Sub-Easy said:
I disagree.

If you asked twenty people to describe a red bus on route 6, then you would get twenty different descriptions.

Not just because of what parts they looked at, but also in how they perceived it, and what feeling went along with their perceptions.....





That was a lot of of side stepping away from what you originally posted, which is below. You are arguing about the shade of red to distract from your original argument about reality.  You clearly state that nothing is real because we see them differently.

Quote:

Sub-Easy said:
You assume that others are seeing the things you see in the same way as you do and that proves that they are reality, but in truth, other people don't see things at all the same as each other and that is the evidence that nothing is real.





My reply was about the nature of reality not the shade of the red or how you feel about the red bus.

You are a gish galloper.


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InvisibleKiwi89
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Registered: 06/16/20
Posts: 648
Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28117397 - 12/30/22 11:43 AM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Quote:

Kiwi89 said:

It is easy to prove that we see the world as it is. Also that we perceive  the real world the same as others unless you have a mental or a physical disorder.




I think I agree with pretty much everything you said except this Kiwi89. It certainly isn’t easy to prove this, and currently no one has proven this, in fact I think it would be more accurate to suggest science has proven the opposite, that we don’t see the world as it truly is. Instead, we do see the world through interpretation machines that have evolved to interpret certain stimuli in certain ways. Ways in which make it easier for us to survive on the African savanna.




In my previous example about our perception of red bus on route 6. We can measure a light wave that we call red. We know that we can produce a paint that will be red. So if we paint that bus red if our cones in our eyes are functioning correctly we will see red. I can not recall a scientific experiment that proves that our interpretation of red is incorrect. 

Our interpretation of the world may be limited by our data receptors, I do not believe that science has proven that that the data is not real or is another form. 

Quote:

Bardy said:
I think it’s also very plausible that we all have completely different conscious experiences of the same stimuli, but I wouldn’t bet on it.




If we were to take ten people and use a needle to pierce the skin on their right index finger, unless they have some nerve damage I am sure that all would agree that it produces a painful experience. Sure the degree of pain may be evaluated differently.


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Invisibledoolhoofd
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Bardy]
    #28117781 - 12/30/22 05:25 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
I think I agree with pretty much everything you said except this Kiwi89. It certainly isn’t easy to prove this, and currently no one has proven this, in fact I think it would be more accurate to suggest science has proven the opposite, that we don’t see the world as it truly is. Instead, we do see the world through interpretation machines that have evolved to interpret certain stimuli in certain ways. Ways in which make it easier for us to survive on the African savanna.




Here's a great TED-Talk that asks the question: "Do we see reality as it is?"
(Spoiler alert: the above statement by Bardy turns out to be correct.)


--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09


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OfflineBardy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: doolhoofd] * 1
    #28117877 - 12/30/22 06:52 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Again, I agree with you Kiwi89. But I think I’m making a slightly separate point.
There is no correct or incorrect experience (I’m using the word experience here in place of interpretation, because I think it’s a much better fit) of the part of the visible spectrum that we call “red”.
We don’t experience red as a wavelength, we experience it as a colour. Our rods and cones are the instruments our brain uses to detect this particular wavelength, but then this data is interpreted in our brains and what follows is the experience of red.

So my point was; we may very well all experience something different when we see red, but because our experience of that colour has always been the same, and we’ve learned to call it “red”, we can all agree only on the fact that we assign the noun “red” to that particular experience.

Quote:

I do not believe that science has proven that the data is not real or is another form.




Maybe proven was too strong a word, but I do believe science points us firmly in the direction of -> Our sense interpreting/experiencing machines in our skulls aren’t perceiving nature as it truly is at the base level. I definitely lean towards thinking that Donald Hoffman’s Interface theory has some truth in it.

Quote:

If we were to take ten people and use a needle to pierce the skin on their right index finger, unless they have some nerve damage I am sure that all would agree that it produces a painful experience.




We can agree on that, but this is the same problem as the colour experience. How do we know that everyone’s experience of pain is the same?
We can all agree that we don’t like painful experiences, and that it’s best to avoid them. This provides a massive evolutionary advantage.
What we haven’t been able to figure out though, is how to tell what an individual’s experience of pain is actually like to them. They’ll be able to describe it using language and say it “burns”, or it “stings”, or it “aches”, but those are all words we’ve taught children to assign to those experiences, the same as we teach people to assign the word “red” to an experience of colour.

Having said all that though, if we could one day figure out a way of directly comparing experiences, I would not at all be surprised if we all had much the same experiences to the same stimuli. We all share the same genetics for the most part after all, and our brains all seem to function in pretty much the same way generally speaking.


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InvisibleKiwi89
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Registered: 06/16/20
Posts: 648
Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: doolhoofd] * 1
    #28117878 - 12/30/22 06:52 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Quote:

doolhoofd said:
Here's a great TED-Talk that asks the question: "Do we see reality as it is?"
(Spoiler alert: the above statement by Bardy turns out to be correct.)




There are a couple talks that I have seen like this about. It is important to note that he is saying, we thought the earth was flat until we could prove that it was not. He is putting forward a theory of his but providing no proof. He does not know what this underlying structure of reality is but he personally believes that it is there. 

His example of the Jewel beetle used as an example of natural selection not favoring seeing reality. This is a example of Supernormal stimulus. This is not an example of evolution favoring fitness but rather an example of a new stimulus eliciting  a stronger response.     

His argument is not that the train or red tomato do not  exist but that the underlying structure may be different than we actually see.

This is similar to saying the the colour red is not actual red but photons scattered by the matter light interacts with. Therefore red is really different than we are able to observe. This does not alter the fact that we see it as red, it is measurable. So is the train squashing you, it does not matter that it may be a representation of a system we can not observe because our sensors are not attuned for that fine data point, it is still a train.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Kiwi89]
    #28117884 - 12/30/22 06:57 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

I’m certainly not arguing for the train not being real. I very much avoid standing on train tracks haha

And I don’t think Sub-easy really thinks that either, I think he just doesn’t edit his writing, and sometimes gets carried away haha :heart:


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OfflineBardy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28117911 - 12/30/22 07:17 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

And yeah, the whole idea I think is that evolution has given us the ability to perceive reality, just close enough to its true nature, for us to be able to survive in the environment we evolved in.

So our perceptions of the world are not true, but they are close enough so that we avoid being squashed by trains :lol:

Thanks doolhoofd! I will check that out later 😊


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OfflineSub-Easy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Bardy]
    #28118007 - 12/30/22 08:42 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:

So my point was; we may very well all experience something different when we see red, but because our experience of that colour has always been the same, and we’ve learned to call it “red”, we can all agree only on the fact that we assign the noun “red” to that particular experience.

Quote:



You make good sense generally, but I think you didn't quite think this through.

So I did it for you, and I couldn't find one argument to prove that we don't see red exactly the same way as everyone else. With maybe slight room for psychological variations.

It's actually not a hard trick for our brains to fix it so we all experience the exact same colors in our minds.

But I do wonder how we came to interpret a signal as red, when the color red doesn't really exist outside of our minds.

But I do think there are very subtle changes in how red is seen, but not usually noticable to even ourselves when it's happening to us.

There is a big difference between things you can measure and things like the mind that you can't. The mind has trouble making accurate measurements of reality, from one person to the next.

But our eyes are very well built tools for measuring ligh signals, so of course they are very accurate and identical to one another.

The eye is not a proper tool for making other measurements though

Like how far away a tree is.

We have depth perception, but guessing how far a distance is will very in accuracy from person to person and for of different reasons.

The things in our reality, that we can all actually agree on, are limited, and the accuracy is completely dependent on the tools we have.

The mind is a good tool, but it doesn't deal in accurate measurements and perseptions.

So we are left with only our 11 senses.

The six that we are aware of and the five that we are not aware of.

And they are all precisely tuned as highly specialized measuring tools, and will give identical readings from one person to the next, but our minds are a very different tool, and they don't work off of standardized units of measure like our scenes do.


--------------------
Just take um like you get um.

Those ephemeral spasms of infinity, in suspended animation, born across a boundless ether of existential misery aloft a revelry (of awe) for the abhorrently sublime.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Sub-Easy]
    #28118087 - 12/30/22 09:35 PM (1 year, 28 days ago)

I didn’t say that it’s proven we experience red differently, I said it’s possible we do. My point is that at this moment in time no one can prove or disprove this.
Or in other words, it’s plausible that we experience stimuli the same way, and it’s plausible that we don’t.

Sub, you kind of just contradicted yourself in that statement I think. You basically said we do and we don’t experience the same red…

I’m tempted to ask you what the 11 senses are but I also don’t want to follow you down that rabbit hole haha.

I’ve made my point, so I’m out now :peace:

Hope you all have a great NYE!


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Offlinerocky_raccoon
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Bardy]
    #28120282 - 01/01/23 04:31 PM (1 year, 26 days ago)

There were a lot of good points made from different sides. So thinking about red buses and perception I came to following conclusions:

1. There is no filter in front of our mind. Our mind and therefore we ourselves ARE the filter. If we change the function of our brain via chemicals or meditation or whatever, of course our perception will change. But we can't take on the filter of another person, because it is always connected to an individual brain and it's function.

2. Two people cannot in any possible way have the same experience. Our brains are the means of perception and as Bardy said, "We don’t experience red as a wavelength, we experience it as a colour." Which means we don't see with our eyes but with our brains. Since every brain is unique, every experience must be as well. Even in the same person each experience of perception is the result of a the current state of your brain which itself changes all the time. A man can't step into the same river twice and he can never have the exact same experience again.

3. We can still assume that our perceptions will be somewhat similar to those of other people, just because our brains are, shaped by the long evolution of our common ancestors. But we can never fully prove it because there is just no way to compare.


--------------------
Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood.
-Marie Curie



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OfflineBardy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: rocky_raccoon]
    #28120351 - 01/01/23 05:35 PM (1 year, 26 days ago)

Want to jump back in just to say I fully agree with how you summarised those points Rocky.

I find this topic so interesting.


Edited by Bardy (01/02/23 12:06 AM)


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OfflineSub-Easy
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: rocky_raccoon]
    #28120630 - 01/01/23 10:34 PM (1 year, 26 days ago)

Quote:

rocky_raccoon said:
There were a lot of good points made from different sides. So thinking about red buses and perception I came to following conclusions:

1. There is no filter in front of our mind. Our mind and therefore we ourselves ARE the filter. If we change the function of our brain via chemicals or meditation or whatever, of course our perception will change. But we can't take on the filter of another person, because it is always connected to an individual brain and it's function.

2. Two people cannot in any possible way have the same experience. Our brains are the means of perception and as Bardy said, "We don’t experience red as a wavelength, we experience it as a colour." Which means we don't see with our eyes but with our brains. Since every brain is unique, every experience must be as well. Even in the same person each experience of perception is the result of a the current state of your brain which itself changes all the time. A man can't step into the same river twice and he can never have the exact same experience again.

3. We can still assume that our perceptions will be somewhat similar to those of other people, just because our brains are, shaped by the long evolution of our common ancestors. But we can never fully prove it because there is just no way to compare.




I'm good with this interpretation.

Maybe a slight divergence in agreement on semantics.

But very beautifully presented.



It's a shame how lacking my associates in science education was.

Fortunately I love reading textbooks cover to cover and absorb them like a sponge, so I went much further than the assigned reading and finished additional textbooks beyond the class syllabus.

A&P one and two textbooks have very limited coverage of the brain's A&P

Second year psychology and chemistry also is hardly more than an introduction.

Fortunately, I've always enjoyed spending my days in the pages of textbooks and fiction.

But there is so much to learn just to say you have scratched the surface.

Especially when it comes to the study needed in relation to the op's question.

College doesn't even start to unravel the partial picture of the world that we have available to us so far.

It would take a tremendous amount of study just to start to understand even the little bit that we know in relation to the op's question.

But I think you have a good way of looking at the subject.

Lacking the massive curriculum anyone would need to really understand what was going on, I think you still have valid points.

@


--------------------
Just take um like you get um.

Those ephemeral spasms of infinity, in suspended animation, born across a boundless ether of existential misery aloft a revelry (of awe) for the abhorrently sublime.


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Offlinerocky_raccoon
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Sub-Easy]
    #28120732 - 01/02/23 05:31 AM (1 year, 26 days ago)

I'm glad you can relate to my point of view. Of course it's only a superficial explanation and a lot about the exact working of the human brain is still poorly understood. But to me it's one of the most fascinating topics.


--------------------
Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood.
-Marie Curie



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OfflineInosuke
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Re: How have psilocybin mushrooms changed you? [Re: Shroomsandstuff]
    #28625030 - 01/17/24 06:00 PM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Microdosing and doing occasional trips has lifted a lot of brain fog that i didn’t even know I had.


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