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Bismillah
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Rye problems and European pressure cookers
#28624516 - 01/17/24 12:08 PM (1 year, 10 hours ago) |
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I've been having some bacterial jars in the past months so I started going over the whole process. The problems came after I switched the brand of rye I use. Actually, the supplier (a mushroom supplier) switched brands. The grain is full of chaff and dirt, and I get a lot of burst and wet grains. This is with 6-7 rinse waters, a 24h soak, rinse, and 10 min boil, same as I've done for about a year.
But even with shitty grain, I figured a 2h PC cycle should do it, right? Nope, still funky jars. So my PC was the next suspect.
I've been reading all these instructions for US cookers, with their wobblers, weights and petcocks. Mine is a WMF Perfect Plus, and it seems like all European cookers have the same features: - Automatic venting (a ball valve shuts when steam reaches a certain velocity) - Spring loaded button that rises with pressure, releases steam if exceeding the maximum pressure. - Lock mechanism that also can be used to relieve pressure, i.e. manual venting is possible. - There's a cutout in the lid where the gasket sits. If the spring loaded release fails, the gasket will blow out and release pressure away from the user. It's therefore not possible to increase pressure by applying weights to the pressure regulator.
The user manual is a bit vague on what this thing can do. The pressure indicator has two rings: First ring is 110C (230F) and 45kPa (6.5psi). Second ring is 119C (246F) and 95kPa (13.8psi). In addition to that, it has a "regulating pressure" of 130kPa (18.9psi). No idea what that means.
To settle this, I hooked up a pt100 probe inside my PC and boiled some water. Calibration with boiling water was 100.0C, spot on.

I closed the vent at 100C, and let the pressure indicator rise until it started hissing. At this point I'll set the induction top to half power, and it will fizzle like this for 1.5h. This is how I do grains. I loose quite a bit of water this way, but at least I get as much pressure as this thing can do. Results show I'm actually getting 121C, so that's a relief. I ran a cycle with grain jars as well, and reached 122-124C.
I've been venting manually lately after these bacterial jars started coming out. I don't think this is necessary though, given how leaky this thing is. When I first started out, I would crank the induction to "boost mode" and get to pressure in around 5 minutes. I don't do this anymore, I set the hob to 60% so the PC reaches pressure in 10-12 minutes, then 50% for the cycle. This way the jars should have the same temperature as the steam when I start the timer.
As for my funky rye, I bought some race horse oats and I've inoculated some jars already. The oats are super clean, no burst or sticky grains. They're also 1/5 the cost of rye, so if this works out I'll be a happy camper.
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Goatrider
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah] 1
#28624525 - 01/17/24 12:19 PM (1 year, 10 hours ago) |
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Maybe read through this thread from Josex.
He was used to have hands on just shitty grains, but therefore developed some master skills 
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Goatrider]
#28625459 - 01/18/24 01:23 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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That's interesting, his jars look a lot like mine. After first shake, colonization is often uneven, and sometimes I'll have a region that takes forever to colonize. In a good jar, I get maybe 2-5 grains that are wet-pressed against the glass. I can't go over 15psi though so I can't follow his 28psi prep tek.
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OldManRiver
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28625469 - 01/18/24 02:08 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think the venting at the end isn't helping you. I don't do so, and my thinking is that first, a slow decline in pressure extends the cook time, which can't hurt, and second, a rapid pressure change might risk introducing more outside air into the PC.
I don't think you'll regret using oats. I've had great luck with them. I doubt they are the root of your problem, but they won't hurt at all, and they are way cheaper for me to get than rye. I've been using oats for sometime.
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MrJong
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: OldManRiver]
#28625471 - 01/18/24 02:22 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Yeah you have to let it depressurize and cool down on its own, only vent at the beginning to make sure your PC is filled with steam. Check your PC's manual if you still have it, if you want to be sure how your particular model works.
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Tiamo
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: MrJong]
#28625479 - 01/18/24 02:51 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Rapid depressurisation of the PC will force outside air through the filters of your jars which might jntroduce contamination
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wtfcrazymofo
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28625491 - 01/18/24 03:27 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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oats may look clean and cheap, but.... I found with the producers pride whole oat brand at least 2 hours at 15psi is needed for quart jars not to go bacterial within 2-3 weeks at 1000 feet above the ocean.
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541
Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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Mwj12977
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: wtfcrazymofo] 1
#28625701 - 01/18/24 09:15 AM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Are you using gypsum during the soak and boil? I’ve missed this step before and had bacterial issues. Mainly because of clumping causing uneven drying and wet spots.
Are you watching the grains during the boil to make sure they are not bursting? As soon as I see one burst grain I stop the cook. Even if it’s 5 minuets in. (Low water levels cook the grains differently. I have had issues with bursting when I’ve got too much grain in the pot) The grains swell during the soak and tend to take up more space than they did 24hrs prior.
Are you immediately removing the grains from the boil? If not that could be the source of your popped grain.
Drying the grain- I use a few giant aluminum Turkey pans for this step (the flimsy throw away kind from the grocery store). As soon as I drain the water I dump the rye in my pan and let it dry. Keep shaking the pan and moving the grains so they dry evenly.
Bag em or jar em and then PC. (Cover your micro pore or it gets too wet) Let the pc cool enough that it unlocks on its own. Shake the jars when you remove them. Shake em again after a bit. Then a bit later shake em again. As they cool you’re shaking to distribute the moisture inside evenly. Once the jars/bags are cool and the grain is loose they are ready to make spawn.
I know this information is readily available and I’m sure you’ve read it all. I went through the steps purposely to make you think about wether or not your inadvertently missing something that you did in the past.
Edited by Mwj12977 (01/18/24 09:25 AM)
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Mwj12977] 1
#28626727 - 01/19/24 04:27 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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I let the PC depressurize by cooling. The (unnecessary) venting I was referring to was in the beginning of the cycle. I use thick felt filters and cover jars with foil. I keep the foil on until I'm done in the SAB. I used to do cheap sticker-filters and even unmodified lids, and would then keep the foil on during colonization. Two green jars after a year of growing made me upgrade the lids.
I use gypsum during the 24h soak, then rinse and boil without gypsum.
I test grains by eating and/or dissecting some during the boil, and figured they need the 10 minutes. Once boiled, I strain right away and toss in colander to get some steam out. I let it sit for 10 minutes, toss some more, wait some, toss some more. This works well with small batches. For larger batches I've spread them on trays in addition to the 2-3 quarts sitting in the colander. I load in jars and PC after 2-10 hours of drying. I've done it the same way since I started growing, following RR's grain prep video.
What I've noticed with this new batch of rye is that they're still a bit gooey, even when dry. I think that's due to burst grains getting smeared all over.
So far with oats, it seems that colonization is a bit slower. Time will tell.
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah] 2
#28627026 - 01/19/24 10:44 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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I rinsed a new batch of rye and took some photos. What I see is mangled, green and oddly shaped grains. No wonder I have burst grains. Also seen are some weird black and green round blobs.

This is from the previous batch, soaked, boiled and dried:

And a grain jar with issues.. This one's staring back at me
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wtfcrazymofo
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Mwj12977]
#28628094 - 01/20/24 04:46 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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I don't gyp my oats... I just get a full boil on a pot of water, turn the stove off, add oats and replace lid, wait 30 minutes if I'm knocking with LI, or no longer than 1 hour If I'm using agar wedges, strain, load wet but not dripping, PC @ 15 for 2 hours and some change... after cooled I Knock up and shake well 1 good time. If you shake right the first time you don't have to shake at 20-30% colonized because it's got colonies spread all over throughout the vessel
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541
Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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OldManRiver
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah] 1
#28628861 - 01/20/24 04:56 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bismillah said: I rinsed a new batch of rye and took some photos. What I see is mangled, green and oddly shaped grains. No wonder I have burst grains. Also seen are some weird black and green round blobs.

Those don't look fully hydrated to me. I don't see any of what I would call burst grains, either. I would either soak or simmer them longer. I prefer to simmer or hot soak, rather than a cold soak, but lots of ways to get it done. My burst grains look similar to cooked brown rice, and the remaining grains look plump, can be cut with my thumbnail, and are translucent all the way through.
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: OldManRiver]
#28629673 - 01/21/24 10:04 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
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Yeah, if you read the description you'll see they're only rinsed. The pic below in my previous post is after boiling.
I'm sure these fragments turn to mush when I boil. Cracked and half eaten grains will sell up, looking like burst grains.
Some grains are scorched looking, others are green or pink. Also found ergot on them. I doubt these would pass as animal feed, let alone for human consumption. PCing may not kill all bacteria, and from what I've gathered they can mess up a jar if conditions are right. Such as nutritious goop or liquid on the grains.
The company that sold these delayed about two weeks before they shipped. I orderered 10kg, and received an opened 25kg bag with 10 kg in it. I suspect they just wanted to get rid of this crap. This company produces spawn and mushroom as well, so they know what they're doing.
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Yahra
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28642272 - 01/31/24 06:37 PM (11 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bismillah said: Mine is a WMF Perfect Plus, and it seems like all European cookers have the same features:
<snip>
First ring is 110C (230F) and 45kPa (6.5psi). Second ring is 119C (246F) and 95kPa (13.8psi). In addition to that, it has a "regulating pressure" of 130kPa (18.9psi).
Are you sure about the pressure values? I ordered the same pc and had a look at the user manual. It says different.
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Yahra] 1
#28642600 - 02/01/24 03:27 AM (11 months, 9 days ago) |
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The manual says all sorts of things, and the rings are kinda hard to interpret - that's why I did this test.
The second ring is visible before you reach max pressure. I assume that's at 115C, I could do another test and measure. If you let the knob rise further until it starts hissing, you'll be at 121C.
edit: I see now your manual doesn't mention 95kPa. That's odd, mine does. Can you share a link to what you ordered?
Edited by Bismillah (02/01/24 03:31 AM)
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Yahra
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28642617 - 02/01/24 04:38 AM (11 months, 9 days ago) |
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My pc didn't arrive yet.
That's a screenshot of the user manual you can download here:
https://www.wmf.com/de/de/perfect-plus-one-pot-schnellkochtopf-8-5-liter-1512001178.html
I ordered exactly this one without the "one pot" as part of the name, maybe they're different?
https://www.koempf24.de/wmf-schnelltopf-8-5-l-perfect-plus
The testing with a pt100 probe is interesting. Do you have a link to the one you used?
Edited by Yahra (02/01/24 05:07 AM)
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Yahra] 1
#28644722 - 02/03/24 02:05 AM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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That one is slightly different from the one I have: There's no lock pin on the pressure indicator on mine. (Part 16, or second pic down in diagram C)
I see there are a few versions of this cooker. Some have a yellow ring on the pressure indicator. Min has two red rings, like you see here: https://device.report/manual/6522617. The max cooking temperature is stated as 119C. This is the same on the yellow ring version: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91s3bKF3yUS.pdf
I used a 3-wire pt100 https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/4000245038521.html with an adafruit MAX31865 and esp8266. You could just use a cooking thermometer though. The tricky part is to get the probe inside the pot while cooking. I took off the vent valve (part 7 in your manual) and replaced it with a SHIP/injection port. I cut a small slit in the SHIP for the probe, and on the inside I taped the cable so it wouldn't get pushed out due to the pressure.
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Yahra
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah] 2
#28648856 - 02/06/24 11:22 AM (11 months, 4 days ago) |
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Good news.
My pressure cooker arrived today and the first thing i did was to have a look at the handbook that's been shipped with it.
Second ring is 119°C (95 kPa) which is approx 13.7 psi. Not perfect but much better than i expected.
This is a relief.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah] 1
#28648983 - 02/06/24 12:51 PM (11 months, 4 days ago) |
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Yeah id say its the inconsistency of your "new" grain thats the issue and not your PC. Good call on switching to oats/another source of grain
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Yahra] 1
#28651841 - 02/08/24 03:37 PM (11 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Yahra said: Good news.
My pressure cooker arrived today and the first thing i did was to have a look at the handbook that's been shipped with it.
Second ring is 119°C (95 kPa) which is approx 13.7 psi. Not perfect but much better than i expected.
This is a relief.
My manual says exactly the same. If you go above the second ring (until it hisses) I'm sure you're hitting 121C like I did.
We'll see about the oats, I'm still open to question other steps of my process. I've had some perfect jars, but also this:

When spawning this jar, I took some of the oats that were stuck on the glass and put them on agar. Curious to see what grows.
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phenyl
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28651878 - 02/08/24 03:57 PM (11 months, 2 days ago) |
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I had various issues like this, including with the Pt100 showing a good temperature and messing about chasing phantom contamination. Fix was to buy a Presto. Wasted months on the problem and god knows how much grain. Euro pressure cookers aren't made for our needs.
Reviewing your grain prep might help. Dry grain doesn't sterilize properly. 3 hour cycles are common for instant pots which operate at about 10 PSI - worth a try I guess. Also worth considering altitude adjustments if you're at a high altitude.
-------------------- The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.
Edited by phenyl (02/08/24 04:06 PM)
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: phenyl] 1
#28660445 - 02/15/24 07:17 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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I'm pretty confident with my pt100, but yeah, there's allways some uncertainty. I would have to pay $125 just for shipping and VAT for a Presto, so that's why me and many other Europeans try to get away with what's available here.
The last oat batch is good. I saw some moisture on the inside of a jar but I guess it's just benign metabolites. After spawning I took some of the kernels that were clinging on the insde of the jar and put them on agar. Only healthy myc is growing with no signs of bacteria.
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LyleChipperson


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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28660898 - 02/15/24 02:54 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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I was looking for a budget pressure cooker in Europe and ended up rolling the dice on this brand. I found a 17lt version for about 60 EUR locally, not sure if they are available all over the EU but they're worth looking into. They seem like cheap garbage but so far they get the job done just fine. I run everything at the standard recommended times for sterilization and I've had no obvious issues coming from the PC itself.
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phenyl
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28662836 - 02/16/24 06:58 PM (10 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bismillah said: I'm pretty confident with my pt100, but yeah, there's allways some uncertainty. I would have to pay $125 just for shipping and VAT for a Presto, so that's why me and many other Europeans try to get away with what's available here.
The last oat batch is good. I saw some moisture on the inside of a jar but I guess it's just benign metabolites. After spawning I took some of the kernels that were clinging on the insde of the jar and put them on agar. Only healthy myc is growing with no signs of bacteria.
That's fair enough. I paid about £190 for my presto from Amazon US after trying 3 different models (little one like you have, the Turkish one the guy above me has and a Chinese lab autoclave) and haven't looked back since. Too small for the European models and the Chinese autoclave was just garbage.
Ultimately my issue came down to the crappy Chinese autoclave having a high density heating element that would give a false reading to the sensor if it was placed above the heating element. Different sensors would give different readings depending on where the sensor was placed. Really annoying. The best thing was when the sensor would have connection issues and instead of failing it would give a value with a random offset.
Getting bacteria to grow well on malt extract agar will be tricky since it's quite acidic. Oats aren't the best grain either, very hard to hydrate and sometimes leads to poor thermal transfer into the grain, thus (often latent) bacteria issues. My two cents if you're confident in your thermocouple.
-------------------- The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.
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Bismillah
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: phenyl]
#28664811 - 02/18/24 12:35 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I appreciate your 2 cents. I just grow small scale, so I haven't felt the need for a big PC. I follow Bod and others who just boil oats for around 30 min, no soak. Seems to hydrate well.
I'm not sure MEA is acidic, I've read before that it's neutral. Besides I was using BRF agar for this test.
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