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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623330 - 01/16/24 11:16 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Freedom, what you call assertions without explanation are valid explanations to me.

At most I can reword them.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623350 - 01/16/24 11:34 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Freedom, what you call assertions without explanation are valid explanations to me.

At most I can reword them.





It sounds like you are saying that direct experience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality because direct exprience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality

I don't see any causal connection, or logical explanation


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623358 - 01/16/24 11:40 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

and for clarity, I have a genuine interest in understanding your point of view.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623369 - 01/16/24 11:43 AM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Yes, I understand you have do not understand what I am portraying.

Perhaps I am mistaken and my position is incoherent?

It makes perfect sense to me though and I'm not into argument for arguments sake, despite perhaps appearing to do that at times.

No worries!

I've presented my position to my satisfaction and there is nothing in the rule book of life that says we must agree.

My ontological position is that reality is a thing independent of humanity and that reality existed before we did and will exist after the last human is no more than cosmic dust again.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28623374 - 01/16/24 11:49 AM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.

I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.

Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.

I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.




That sounds to me like a kind of view that's like a epistemology bubble where no ontology is palatable. Kind of like conpartmentalising ontology.





Ontologically I'd say direct experience is what exists, although even that is a little tricky because it can't be caught, it keeps flowing, as soon as a moment is recognized its gone, yet here it is flowing by.

As soon as we start to imagine it, we are describing it as other than it is. Thats what thought is, descriptions of things in terms of other things. Its imaginative.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623377 - 01/16/24 11:50 AM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.



I strongly disagree with that.

What you describe is called a margin of error.
It doesn't negate consistency.




Disagree all you want. I'm not sure how variance, the acknowledgment of variance, etc. doesn't negate the idea of some objective consistency. And you provided nothing to say why.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623398 - 01/16/24 12:06 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

I'm not going to explain why margins of error do not invalidate the measurements they pertain to.

I honestly think I shouldn't have to.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623407 - 01/16/24 12:14 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

No one said they do. Margins of error pertain to correlations amongst data sets. Such error does not invalidate correlation. But it is acknowledged and reported for a reason.

If I understand you correctly, you believe consistency within a range is sufficient to establish an object. And although you acknowledge variation occurs, it's occurrence within this range is acceptable.

I'm ok with that. It's only half of what I posted about though.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623412 - 01/16/24 12:18 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Then I find the notion that they invalidate consistency to be spurious.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623417 - 01/16/24 12:20 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)


For me the broader question in relationship to this thread is: consistency of what?

I think most in modern science would not say of an object, but of a relationship. This is what I was attempting to point out in the original post.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28623429 - 01/16/24 12:27 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Who made such a claim?




For all intents and purposes you did:

Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.





Consistency is literally objective by definition.
If you disagree with this, then we are at an impasse.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623432 - 01/16/24 12:29 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Ok, let's move on to the second part. I'll concede your definition of consistency as objective is workable to discuss something more important imo.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28623443 - 01/16/24 12:35 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

I must be open to the possibility that I am confused and am mistaken about all of this.

It may be the case that I am not intelligent enough to see your point and that my point is too flawed to make sense to others.

I know that accusation has been made repeatedly here at the forum, that I am too stupid to understand basic things. It is not impossible for that to be true.

Given that, and that I have already espoused my position and the ontological context it arises in, I think it best to concede that I am out of my depth here and you may be right and I am wrong, and then I can withdraw from the conversation.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623453 - 01/16/24 12:42 PM (12 days, 59 minutes ago)

I can also appreciate that you didn't insult me or call me delusional for having a different opinion. I see that kind of behavior a lot from philosophically inclined moderators at forums, like the Nexus, and am glad that isn't happening here.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623461 - 01/16/24 12:47 PM (12 days, 53 minutes ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
I must be open to the possibility that I am confused and am mistaken about all of this.

It may be the case that I am not intelligent enough to see your point and that my point is too flawed to make sense to others.

I know that accusation has been made repeatedly here at the forum, that I am too stupid to understand basic things. It is not impossible for that to be true.

Given that, and that I have already espoused my position and the ontological context it arises in, I think it best to concede that I am out of my depth here and you may be right and I am wrong, and then I can withdraw from the conversation.





I think the basic thing I'm trying to point to may be not about intelligence but perspective.

I've tried to point it out since I was maybe 6 years old and have had very little or perhaps no success at all!

Lately I've noticed some people in non dual communities seem to see the same thing. This has given me a renewed interest in trying to understand how other people see and how I see and what is going on.

I don't think you're stupid, for a human anyways :lol:

there's probably some species out there that makes us look like amoebas or something


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623465 - 01/16/24 12:49 PM (12 days, 51 minutes ago)

one of the things I wonder about is do people really live through belief.

I have trouble believing that or even understanding how that is possible. It sounds horrible, like being trapped inside of thoughts.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623517 - 01/16/24 01:32 PM (12 days, 8 minutes ago)

I suspect that beliefs live through people, so to speak.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28624140 - 01/17/24 12:24 AM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?




From what I gather Freedoms view aligns with having incorporated elements of solipsism and phenomenalism, characterised by a pronounced skepticism regarding the existence of an external reality. This viewpoint appears to place a significant emphasis on epistemological considerations, prioritising the understanding and analysis of knowledge primarily through the lens of individual sensory experiences and thoughts. It appears there's a noticeable non-commitment to ontological assertions within this viewpoint though, indicated by a reluctance to definitively acknowledge or deny the independent existence of an external world. An approach that seems to reflect a deep focus on the subjective interpretation of reality, with less concern for making concrete claims about the nature of existence itself.

It's a view that in essence says, what lies outside of our experiences remains a question open to interpretation, rather than a confirmed reality. To me it suggests a recognition that definitive answers could potentially limit the scope of exploration and inquiry. Personally, I think living with questions and growing through them fosters a mindset of continuous curiosity and pursuit of knowledge, where answers are gateways to further exploration and growth.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/17/24 12:35 AM)


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28624181 - 01/17/24 03:57 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

I like to define real as that which doesn't change


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28624189 - 01/17/24 04:39 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

only a few abstract relationships do not change, like physics formulae.
change is very real.
everything real is in some kind of flux although the time range varies:
subatomic is extremely fast
chemical reactions can be very fast
single cells and bacteria change quickly
weather is pretty fast
multicellular creatures including us change at a moderate pace but include faster changes within.
buildings last decades to hundreds of years while parts within change faster
trees may last 1000 years but still change daily
rocks change over hundreds of thousands of years
planets change over millions of years
stars change over billions of years


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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