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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #28622603 - 01/15/24 07:38 PM (12 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I've got a friend who has an electric scooter that goes 55.



tell him I said to wear a helmet and a full set of motorcycle padding.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28622741 - 01/15/24 09:15 PM (12 days, 16 hours ago)

There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #28622752 - 01/15/24 09:41 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622828 - 01/15/24 11:38 PM (12 days, 14 hours ago)

I didn't think it required belief? idk.  T'sall *mostly speculative conjecture. 


what prompted the question...in the first place? hhmm?
that's what I like tracing back as far as I can, you can do it as long as you like, intellectually, experientially, as per psychs, as per meditation (some styles or varieties are more suited for certain things than others ...ie. the some jhanas.

(phases/spectrum more so than 'lvls', btw - just in case u do read into that)

wrt the sphere of infinitude of consciousness & ditto but for space are generally where I began and started and ended - and it never left the present moment.  Still, those are fabricated, in manner of speaking, so to most they wouldn't classify as 'reality' fyi, not for me anyways,  but they are neat, in terms of the perspective that they bring about, which can then be utilized when contemplating other things.  comprendo?

that's all I can say really.

there's a bazillion ways over the years some intelligent and wise individuals have used various forms of expression to attempt to convey a concept such as that of 'reality'. 

look them over, test them out, find out what you find out for yourself.

that without which there cannot be phenomenon whatsoever,  experience or no experience, doesn't matter too much.

idk- try thought experiments, whatever. 
eg.

what persists before a big bang, or after a big bang finishes zipping up its pants and after cleaning up the entire mess?

or- what never started and what never ends?
or- what doesn't need to begin to begin with to already be?

etc, etc.....

those are but a few of 10,0000000x 10000000 ways of thinking/viewing the question in terms of having something of a reference point.  try without one, in so far as you can, that's always fun too - for a while, anyways. haha.

keep questioning, find out for yourself, if its unpractical or more or less 'useless' (but, you know, one man's garbage is another's treasure and :blah: ) to you or causing you more harm than benefit, then it's probably not worth your time? Or, there might be more beneficial ways and means to utilize one's very limited 'time'...so to speak, then again, that's just the ol' 0.02 cents mystery past my bedtime version of a post.

:ducklol:

nit.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (01/15/24 11:52 PM)


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622833 - 01/15/24 11:43 PM (12 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?




If there is a world or reality, broadening is not sufficient to prove reality, but it would be necessary, if reality existed.

:smile:

The fact there are ripples (broadening) in a pond (phenomena/perception) necessitate a surface, say.

When my mind expands on mushrooms or LSD, or even day to day with mood fluctuations, I notice I'm not just seeing more of the same, or processing more, that in fact something is being peered into. It is not a clearer image, not a more complex one from an overworked brain, but instead I am peering.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622837 - 01/15/24 11:54 PM (12 days, 13 hours ago)

we can peer regardless of if on mushrooms or not.
sometimes we may even appear to seem to peer, while not quite doing so.  ahh, bed. now. gnit.

just ur best, ace. :thumbup:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleNillion
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Posts: 1,000
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622955 - 01/16/24 05:52 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: lostintimenspc] * 2
    #28622993 - 01/16/24 06:32 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?




If there is a world or reality, broadening is not sufficient to prove reality, but it would be necessary, if reality existed.

:smile:

The fact there are ripples (broadening) in a pond (phenomena/perception) necessitate a surface, say.

When my mind expands on mushrooms or LSD, or even day to day with mood fluctuations, I notice I'm not just seeing more of the same, or processing more, that in fact something is being peered into. It is not a clearer image, not a more complex one from an overworked brain, but instead I am peering.




the idea of broadening as a verification of reality is interesting and intuitive, in the sense that real spaces can be explored and the path in remains usually as a safe path out from any explorations in reality.

but broadening, branching out, and ramifying is a property of perception during hallucination such as when an image of a goddess seems to become more and more compellingly beautiful as you stare at her, and light begins to radiate from her skin, etc. jewels and sparkles etc. are all products of ramified perception on drugs or emotional or trance states.

so in terms of broadening, or ramifying, I think that if you stay with the freshest sensory input every 1/3 of a second or less, then you are not tripping out on branches into hallucination.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28622994 - 01/16/24 06:34 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.



in a traditional way, yes, but these days we have to allow that in fact each of us has their own reality but together we share life and resources and we serve eachother as well.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleNillion
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Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28623002 - 01/16/24 06:38 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in a traditional way, yes, but these days we have to allow that in fact each of us has their own reality but together we share life and resources and we serve eachother as well.




I'm fond of the saying that there is a separate sky for each of us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion] * 2
    #28623053 - 01/16/24 07:42 AM (12 days, 5 hours ago)



--------------------
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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623140 - 01/16/24 08:57 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:

Quote:

Freedom said:
why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?





Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.





I'm not sure I follow you. Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency? Why can a primary reality not be consistent but a secondary reality can? Following this, wouldn't the secondary external reality need a third reality to create its consistency? And then wouldn't the third one need a forth and so on in an infinite regression?

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.




You write from the perspective that reality exists even as you deny believing in it. Otherwise there is nothing to reject nor say. Your willingness to share a perspective is either a belief that others exists for real, or a belief that we are all in your head and you are just talking to yourself in an elaborate way.

Do you think that a man like me can be a product of your imagination?




Do you have to believe a video game is real to play it? Do you have to believe the story is true to act in a play?

Can I ever think your thoughts or see through your eyes to confirm if my imagination of you is true?


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623155 - 01/16/24 09:08 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency?




If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.

This seems clear to me so we may be at an impasse.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #28623188 - 01/16/24 09:37 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
 


what prompted the question...in the first place? hhmm?





I think it started way back when

when parents and then teachers, other adults started explaining reality.

It never made sense. It never fit. The belief systems all seem to depend on a first, imaginary step. God. Big bang. Fill in the blank.

And then along with that, the belief systems keep playing hopscotch. Jumping over the known with imaginations, and believing in them.

I watched my peers take on imaginary roles and self concepts. I tried to believe in god or the big bang or being a 'man'. The realness of it ever stuck.

Then I watched and these belief systems were all in conflict. Apparently trapped in arrogant self righteousness, forced into conflict...

Still today. I see people who seem to hardly keep their own lives together think they have the best solution for economic policy or what Israel should do or what other people should do or....

and trying to understand, why is it I could never believe in belief? How is it that others seem to? Do they really? And this belief in an external reality seems to be a core component of that, part of a seed view that grows into belief systems that oppose each other.

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

(phases/spectrum more so than 'lvls', btw - just in case u do read into that)

wrt the sphere of infinitude of consciousness & ditto but for space are generally where I began and started and ended - and it never left the present moment.  Still, those are fabricated, in manner of speaking, so to most they wouldn't classify as 'reality' fyi, not for me anyways,  but they are neat, in terms of the perspective that they bring about, which can then be utilized when contemplating other things.  comprendo?






I don't know. It seems like there is a 'pure' infinity but I don't know how that can be known, as that pure version isn't accessible to thought or knowing. It may be unfabricated for a moment, but then that unfabrication has to become fabricated to remember or to be known.

Also it seems like everything is always the unbounded mind, that this experience of being in a room and a body typing on a computer is happening within the infinite. but this infinite is simply the lack of edges, and an absence is not a thing..



Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
what persists before a big bang?






this question, 36 years ago, seems to be what freed me from having to believe anything


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623194 - 01/16/24 09:42 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency?




If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.

This seems clear to me so we may be at an impasse.





I'm not sure we're on the same page. I'm using different terms, and defined them in the OP. I'm not sure what subjectivity and objectivity mean to you.

Could you share what you mean by subjective and why primary experience is inherently subjective? And why would a secondary reality be inherently objective?


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623200 - 01/16/24 09:49 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

I am of the opinion that if one cannot explain the origin of a thing, that doesn't mean that thing does not exist.

Regarding Subjective:
Quote:

Formed, as in opinions, based upon a person's feelings or intuition, not upon observation or reasoning; coming more from within the observer than from observations of the external environment.

Resulting from or pertaining to personal mindsets or experience, arising from perceptive mental conditions within the brain and not necessarily or directly from external stimuli.

Lacking in reality or substance.

Experienced by a person mentally and not directly verifiable by others.




I am using all of these simultaneously as they are interrelated to me.

As for further explanation, I provided what is a satisfactory explanation of this to me already in the thread and assume that we are now at an impasse. We are interpreting the data differently, it seems.



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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623249 - 01/16/24 10:23 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:

As for further explanation, I provided what is a satisfactory explanation of this to me already in the thread and assume that we are now at an impasse. We are interpreting the data differently, it seems.






I see assertions without explanation:

Quote:

Nillion said:


Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.






Quote:

Nillion said:

If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.






I am also trying to link this to what I was saying about an external reality, adding the ideas of subjectivity seems like an added and unecessary complication. Its adding the idea of a subject with biases, and that this subject is creating its experience. This sounds like the same thing as an external reality. There is some external subject creating this exprience.

I don't directly see anything creating this experience.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623260 - 01/16/24 10:30 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.




Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623315 - 01/16/24 11:07 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.





I think the heavy medication is reserved for people with delusions.

Derealization and depersonalization have some overlaps with what I am saying, however the descriptions of those experiences usually entail being removed from experience, or having expreince dulled in some way, a type of dissociation.  They also are classified as causing problems with functioning in life.

I know several people who had sudden shifts into seeing everything as not real. They had not context for it and thought they might be going crazy. When they went to psychologists or therapists they were told they didn't meet the criteria for a mental illness because they could still function and were happy.

Later on they encountered non dual communities and found others who had similar shifts.


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InvisibleNillion
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Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28623324 - 01/16/24 11:13 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.



I strongly disagree with that.

What you describe is called a margin of error.
It doesn't negate consistency.


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