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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 34 minutes, 53 seconds
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What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing?
#28622034 - 01/15/24 10:53 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago) |
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To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.
I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.
Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.
I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622045 - 01/15/24 11:08 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago) |
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The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622054 - 01/15/24 11:19 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Reality is the experience in which things like observation, measurement, laws of physics, the operation of technology etc are all consistent.
If you cannot change the measurement of how tall you are by forming the opinion that you are not tall, or by having the opinion that you are, then you are really that tall.
There is nothing subjective about reality in terms of the viewer, only the experience is subjective, not what is experienced. This is because the subjective aspect of sensory experience is also consistent, it is objectively real or true.
If the subjective nature of perception was definitive it would be self subjective, ergo inconsistent. The idea that perception is subjective is objectively true, this proves that there is objective reality that we experience. Reality is not subjective, no matter what you think about how tall you are, that doesn't change how tall you are. Your subjective experience of tallness doesn't change anything real when it all comes down to it.
Anyone could measure how tall I am and they would all get the same measurement because human beings do not affect reality with their opinions.
We do not determine what reality is. It isn't a matter of subjective opinion.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622075 - 01/15/24 11:41 AM (13 days, 1 hour ago) |
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even the question of reality pinging around in my brain, as well as my brain and my own existence each moment in space is reality, everything happening is reality, and everything that has already happened is history, in most ways, inaccessible, except for memory and physical mementos/souvenirs.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622078 - 01/15/24 11:45 AM (13 days, 1 hour ago) |
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I like that. But who's to say a dream must be wholly subjective? It could indicate that there's more to it than a conscious dreamer which adds unknowns and complexity to the idea of solipsism.
That's why solipsism has more than one connotation. I tend to reject the ones that involve me being real but you not being real. But even if that were true, what difference does it make?
Disbelief in objectivity doesn't make objectivity less reliable.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 34 minutes, 53 seconds
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622133 - 01/15/24 12:36 PM (13 days, 59 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?
Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 34 minutes, 53 seconds
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622140 - 01/15/24 12:46 PM (13 days, 49 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: Reality is the experience in which things like observation, measurement, laws of physics, the operation of technology etc are all consistent.
If you cannot change the measurement of how tall you are by forming the opinion that you are not tall, or by having the opinion that you are, then you are really that tall.
There is nothing subjective about reality in terms of the viewer, only the experience is subjective, not what is experienced. This is because the subjective aspect of sensory experience is also consistent, it is objectively real or true.
If the subjective nature of perception was definitive it would be self subjective, ergo inconsistent. The idea that perception is subjective is objectively true, this proves that there is objective reality that we experience. Reality is not subjective, no matter what you think about how tall you are, that doesn't change how tall you are. Your subjective experience of tallness doesn't change anything real when it all comes down to it.
Anyone could measure how tall I am and they would all get the same measurement because human beings do not affect reality with their opinions.
We do not determine what reality is. It isn't a matter of subjective opinion.
I can get on board with internal consistence of models of reality, but weather those models have an actual referent or not, I would need more proof than the consistency.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622156 - 01/15/24 12:59 PM (13 days, 36 minutes ago) |
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Is there any evidence that supports the idea that there is no reality?
The consistency of materials is very strong evidence, without something to indicate that there is no objective reality why doubt it?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 34 minutes, 53 seconds
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622161 - 01/15/24 01:06 PM (13 days, 29 minutes ago) |
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I don't see any evidence that supports or denies an external reality.
why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?
Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622179 - 01/15/24 01:20 PM (13 days, 14 minutes ago) |
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mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".
in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622211 - 01/15/24 01:46 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Rahz said: The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?
Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.
People often want to know what is true. Understanding the options, perhaps having an appreciation for particular viewpoints, doesn't preclude absence of choice.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28622214 - 01/15/24 01:47 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".
in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.
Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 34 minutes, 53 seconds
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622274 - 01/15/24 02:35 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Rahz said: The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?
Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.
People often want to know what is true. Understanding the options, perhaps having an appreciation for particular viewpoints, doesn't preclude absence of choice.
I think that's the benefit of not choosing if reason doesn't dictate it. If you already believe something, its hard to have the freedom to explore. If I don't know, then I'm free to look at all possibilities.
There may be something outside my exprience, there not be, perhaps its even something else beyond my ability to comprehend
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".
in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.
Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.
You don't have to believe a video game is real to accept the rules of the game. Seeing a video game as un real doesn't mean the character won't die, in the game.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622294 - 01/15/24 02:50 PM (12 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
I think that's the benefit of not choosing if reason doesn't dictate it. If you already believe something, its hard to have the freedom to explore. If I don't know, then I'm free to look at all possibilities.
There may be something outside my exprience, there not be, perhaps its even something else beyond my ability to comprehend
Makes sense. I do lean toward things being as they seem but it doesn't prevent me from exploring other possibilities.
Quote:
You don't have to believe a video game is real to accept the rules of the game. Seeing a video game as un real doesn't mean the character won't die, in the game.
Agreed but this is evidence for more than self/thought. Why would there be objectivity if only the self existed? It leads to speculation that has no utility. I'm not knocking the entertainment value but I suppose there's more to solipsism than entertainment.
And that seems to be how one feels about existing and their place in this situation we're tentatively calling reality. Seems real. Seems unreal.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622358 - 01/15/24 04:06 PM (12 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ... Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.
would I not have to write or suggest that I think others do not exist in the real world to qualify as a solipsist?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28622383 - 01/15/24 04:40 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.
I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.
Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.
I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.
That sounds to me like a kind of view that's like a epistemology bubble where no ontology is palatable. Kind of like conpartmentalising ontology.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28622401 - 01/15/24 04:54 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I don't see any evidence that supports or denies an external reality.
Fair enough.
Quote:
Freedom said: why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?
Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.
Quote:
Freedom said: Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.
You write from the perspective that reality exists even as you deny believing in it. Otherwise there is nothing to reject nor say. Your willingness to share a perspective is either a belief that others exists for real, or a belief that we are all in your head and you are just talking to yourself in an elaborate way.
Do you think that a man like me can be a product of your imagination?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28622402 - 01/15/24 04:55 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Yes I wasn't implying you were, it was just an example of how there is utility in thinking of cars as real/objective things.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622423 - 01/15/24 05:19 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Yes I wasn't implying you were, it was just an example of how there is utility in thinking of cars as real/objective things.
I was distracted by unreal cars for most of the day...
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28622454 - 01/15/24 05:50 PM (12 days, 19 hours ago) |
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I've got a friend who has an electric scooter that goes 55.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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