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OfflineFreedom
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What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing?
    #28622034 - 01/15/24 10:53 AM (12 days, 8 hours ago)

To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.

I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.

Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.

I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622045 - 01/15/24 11:08 AM (12 days, 8 hours ago)

The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622054 - 01/15/24 11:19 AM (12 days, 8 hours ago)

Reality is the experience in which things like observation, measurement, laws of physics, the operation of technology etc are all consistent.

If you cannot change the measurement of how tall you are by forming the opinion that you are not tall, or by having the opinion that you are, then you are really that tall.

There is nothing subjective about reality in terms of the viewer,  only the experience is subjective, not what is experienced. This is because the subjective aspect of sensory experience is also consistent, it is objectively real or true.

If the subjective nature of perception was definitive it would be self subjective, ergo inconsistent. The idea that perception is subjective is objectively true, this proves that there is objective reality that we experience. Reality is not subjective, no matter what you think about how tall you are, that doesn't change how tall you are. Your subjective experience of tallness doesn't change anything real when it all comes down to it.


Anyone could measure how tall I am and they would all get the same measurement because human beings do not affect reality with their opinions.

We do not determine what reality is.
It isn't a matter of subjective opinion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28622075 - 01/15/24 11:41 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

even the question of reality pinging around in my brain, as well as my brain and my own existence each moment in space is reality, everything happening is reality, and everything that has already happened is history, in most ways, inaccessible, except for memory and physical mementos/souvenirs.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28622078 - 01/15/24 11:45 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

I like that. But who's to say a dream must be wholly subjective? It could indicate that there's more to it than a conscious dreamer which adds unknowns and complexity to the idea of solipsism.

That's why solipsism has more than one connotation. I tend to reject the ones that involve me being real but you not being real. But even if that were true, what difference does it make?

Disbelief in objectivity doesn't make objectivity less reliable.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28622133 - 01/15/24 12:36 PM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?




Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?

Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28622140 - 01/15/24 12:46 PM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Reality is the experience in which things like observation, measurement, laws of physics, the operation of technology etc are all consistent.

If you cannot change the measurement of how tall you are by forming the opinion that you are not tall, or by having the opinion that you are, then you are really that tall.

There is nothing subjective about reality in terms of the viewer,  only the experience is subjective, not what is experienced. This is because the subjective aspect of sensory experience is also consistent, it is objectively real or true.

If the subjective nature of perception was definitive it would be self subjective, ergo inconsistent. The idea that perception is subjective is objectively true, this proves that there is objective reality that we experience. Reality is not subjective, no matter what you think about how tall you are, that doesn't change how tall you are. Your subjective experience of tallness doesn't change anything real when it all comes down to it.


Anyone could measure how tall I am and they would all get the same measurement because human beings do not affect reality with their opinions.

We do not determine what reality is.
It isn't a matter of subjective opinion.




I can get on board with internal consistence of models of reality, but weather those models have an actual referent or not, I would need more proof than the consistency.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622156 - 01/15/24 12:59 PM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Is there any evidence that supports the idea that there is no reality?


The consistency of materials is very strong evidence, without something to indicate that there is no objective reality why doubt it?


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28622161 - 01/15/24 01:06 PM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

I don't see any evidence that supports or denies an external reality.

why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?


Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28622179 - 01/15/24 01:20 PM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".

in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622211 - 01/15/24 01:46 PM (12 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?




Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?

Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.




People often want to know what is true. Understanding the options, perhaps having an appreciation for particular viewpoints, doesn't preclude absence of choice.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28622214 - 01/15/24 01:47 PM (12 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".

in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.




Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28622274 - 01/15/24 02:35 PM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?




Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?

Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.




People often want to know what is true. Understanding the options, perhaps having an appreciation for particular viewpoints, doesn't preclude absence of choice.




I think that's the benefit of not choosing if reason doesn't dictate it. If you already believe something, its hard to have the freedom to explore. If I don't know, then I'm free to look at all possibilities.

There may be something outside my exprience, there not be, perhaps its even something else beyond my ability to comprehend

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".

in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.




Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.




You don't have to believe a video game is real to accept the rules of the game. Seeing a video game as un real doesn't mean the character won't die, in the game.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622294 - 01/15/24 02:50 PM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

I think that's the benefit of not choosing if reason doesn't dictate it. If you already believe something, its hard to have the freedom to explore. If I don't know, then I'm free to look at all possibilities.

There may be something outside my exprience, there not be, perhaps its even something else beyond my ability to comprehend




Makes sense. I do lean toward things being as they seem but it doesn't prevent me from exploring other possibilities.

Quote:

You don't have to believe a video game is real to accept the rules of the game. Seeing a video game as un real doesn't mean the character won't die, in the game.




Agreed but this is evidence for more than self/thought. Why would there be objectivity if only the self existed? It leads to speculation that has no utility. I'm not knocking the entertainment value but I suppose there's more to solipsism than entertainment.

And that seems to be how one feels about existing and their place in this situation we're tentatively calling reality. Seems real. Seems unreal.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28622358 - 01/15/24 04:06 PM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
...
Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.



would I not have to write or suggest that I think others do not exist in the real world to qualify as a solipsist?


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28622383 - 01/15/24 04:40 PM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.

I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.

Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.

I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.




That sounds to me like a kind of view that's like a epistemology bubble where no ontology is palatable. Kind of like conpartmentalising ontology.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622401 - 01/15/24 04:54 PM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I don't see any evidence that supports or denies an external reality.




Fair enough.

Quote:

Freedom said:
why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?





Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.

Quote:

Freedom said:
Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.




You write from the perspective that reality exists even as you deny believing in it. Otherwise there is nothing to reject nor say. Your willingness to share a perspective is either a belief that others exists for real, or a belief that we are all in your head and you are just talking to yourself in an elaborate way.

Do you think that a man like me can be a product of your imagination?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28622402 - 01/15/24 04:55 PM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Yes I wasn't implying you were, it was just an example of how there is utility in thinking of cars as real/objective things.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28622423 - 01/15/24 05:19 PM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Yes I wasn't implying you were, it was just an example of how there is utility in thinking of cars as real/objective things.



I was distracted by unreal cars for most of the day...


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28622454 - 01/15/24 05:50 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

I've got a friend who has an electric scooter that goes 55.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #28622603 - 01/15/24 07:38 PM (11 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I've got a friend who has an electric scooter that goes 55.



tell him I said to wear a helmet and a full set of motorcycle padding.


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28622741 - 01/15/24 09:15 PM (11 days, 22 hours ago)

There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #28622752 - 01/15/24 09:41 PM (11 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622828 - 01/15/24 11:38 PM (11 days, 19 hours ago)

I didn't think it required belief? idk.  T'sall *mostly speculative conjecture. 


what prompted the question...in the first place? hhmm?
that's what I like tracing back as far as I can, you can do it as long as you like, intellectually, experientially, as per psychs, as per meditation (some styles or varieties are more suited for certain things than others ...ie. the some jhanas.

(phases/spectrum more so than 'lvls', btw - just in case u do read into that)

wrt the sphere of infinitude of consciousness & ditto but for space are generally where I began and started and ended - and it never left the present moment.  Still, those are fabricated, in manner of speaking, so to most they wouldn't classify as 'reality' fyi, not for me anyways,  but they are neat, in terms of the perspective that they bring about, which can then be utilized when contemplating other things.  comprendo?

that's all I can say really.

there's a bazillion ways over the years some intelligent and wise individuals have used various forms of expression to attempt to convey a concept such as that of 'reality'. 

look them over, test them out, find out what you find out for yourself.

that without which there cannot be phenomenon whatsoever,  experience or no experience, doesn't matter too much.

idk- try thought experiments, whatever. 
eg.

what persists before a big bang, or after a big bang finishes zipping up its pants and after cleaning up the entire mess?

or- what never started and what never ends?
or- what doesn't need to begin to begin with to already be?

etc, etc.....

those are but a few of 10,0000000x 10000000 ways of thinking/viewing the question in terms of having something of a reference point.  try without one, in so far as you can, that's always fun too - for a while, anyways. haha.

keep questioning, find out for yourself, if its unpractical or more or less 'useless' (but, you know, one man's garbage is another's treasure and :blah: ) to you or causing you more harm than benefit, then it's probably not worth your time? Or, there might be more beneficial ways and means to utilize one's very limited 'time'...so to speak, then again, that's just the ol' 0.02 cents mystery past my bedtime version of a post.

:ducklol:

nit.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (01/15/24 11:52 PM)


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622833 - 01/15/24 11:43 PM (11 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?




If there is a world or reality, broadening is not sufficient to prove reality, but it would be necessary, if reality existed.

:smile:

The fact there are ripples (broadening) in a pond (phenomena/perception) necessitate a surface, say.

When my mind expands on mushrooms or LSD, or even day to day with mood fluctuations, I notice I'm not just seeing more of the same, or processing more, that in fact something is being peered into. It is not a clearer image, not a more complex one from an overworked brain, but instead I am peering.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622837 - 01/15/24 11:54 PM (11 days, 19 hours ago)

we can peer regardless of if on mushrooms or not.
sometimes we may even appear to seem to peer, while not quite doing so.  ahh, bed. now. gnit.

just ur best, ace. :thumbup:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28622955 - 01/16/24 05:52 AM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: lostintimenspc] * 2
    #28622993 - 01/16/24 06:32 AM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.





can you say a little more about that?




If there is a world or reality, broadening is not sufficient to prove reality, but it would be necessary, if reality existed.

:smile:

The fact there are ripples (broadening) in a pond (phenomena/perception) necessitate a surface, say.

When my mind expands on mushrooms or LSD, or even day to day with mood fluctuations, I notice I'm not just seeing more of the same, or processing more, that in fact something is being peered into. It is not a clearer image, not a more complex one from an overworked brain, but instead I am peering.




the idea of broadening as a verification of reality is interesting and intuitive, in the sense that real spaces can be explored and the path in remains usually as a safe path out from any explorations in reality.

but broadening, branching out, and ramifying is a property of perception during hallucination such as when an image of a goddess seems to become more and more compellingly beautiful as you stare at her, and light begins to radiate from her skin, etc. jewels and sparkles etc. are all products of ramified perception on drugs or emotional or trance states.

so in terms of broadening, or ramifying, I think that if you stay with the freshest sensory input every 1/3 of a second or less, then you are not tripping out on branches into hallucination.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28622994 - 01/16/24 06:34 AM (11 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.



in a traditional way, yes, but these days we have to allow that in fact each of us has their own reality but together we share life and resources and we serve eachother as well.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28623002 - 01/16/24 06:38 AM (11 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in a traditional way, yes, but these days we have to allow that in fact each of us has their own reality but together we share life and resources and we serve eachother as well.




I'm fond of the saying that there is a separate sky for each of us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion] * 2
    #28623053 - 01/16/24 07:42 AM (11 days, 11 hours ago)



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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623140 - 01/16/24 08:57 AM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:

Quote:

Freedom said:
why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?





Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.





I'm not sure I follow you. Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency? Why can a primary reality not be consistent but a secondary reality can? Following this, wouldn't the secondary external reality need a third reality to create its consistency? And then wouldn't the third one need a forth and so on in an infinite regression?

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.




You write from the perspective that reality exists even as you deny believing in it. Otherwise there is nothing to reject nor say. Your willingness to share a perspective is either a belief that others exists for real, or a belief that we are all in your head and you are just talking to yourself in an elaborate way.

Do you think that a man like me can be a product of your imagination?




Do you have to believe a video game is real to play it? Do you have to believe the story is true to act in a play?

Can I ever think your thoughts or see through your eyes to confirm if my imagination of you is true?


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623155 - 01/16/24 09:08 AM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency?




If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.

This seems clear to me so we may be at an impasse.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #28623188 - 01/16/24 09:37 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
 


what prompted the question...in the first place? hhmm?





I think it started way back when

when parents and then teachers, other adults started explaining reality.

It never made sense. It never fit. The belief systems all seem to depend on a first, imaginary step. God. Big bang. Fill in the blank.

And then along with that, the belief systems keep playing hopscotch. Jumping over the known with imaginations, and believing in them.

I watched my peers take on imaginary roles and self concepts. I tried to believe in god or the big bang or being a 'man'. The realness of it ever stuck.

Then I watched and these belief systems were all in conflict. Apparently trapped in arrogant self righteousness, forced into conflict...

Still today. I see people who seem to hardly keep their own lives together think they have the best solution for economic policy or what Israel should do or what other people should do or....

and trying to understand, why is it I could never believe in belief? How is it that others seem to? Do they really? And this belief in an external reality seems to be a core component of that, part of a seed view that grows into belief systems that oppose each other.

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

(phases/spectrum more so than 'lvls', btw - just in case u do read into that)

wrt the sphere of infinitude of consciousness & ditto but for space are generally where I began and started and ended - and it never left the present moment.  Still, those are fabricated, in manner of speaking, so to most they wouldn't classify as 'reality' fyi, not for me anyways,  but they are neat, in terms of the perspective that they bring about, which can then be utilized when contemplating other things.  comprendo?






I don't know. It seems like there is a 'pure' infinity but I don't know how that can be known, as that pure version isn't accessible to thought or knowing. It may be unfabricated for a moment, but then that unfabrication has to become fabricated to remember or to be known.

Also it seems like everything is always the unbounded mind, that this experience of being in a room and a body typing on a computer is happening within the infinite. but this infinite is simply the lack of edges, and an absence is not a thing..



Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
what persists before a big bang?






this question, 36 years ago, seems to be what freed me from having to believe anything


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623194 - 01/16/24 09:42 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency?




If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.

This seems clear to me so we may be at an impasse.





I'm not sure we're on the same page. I'm using different terms, and defined them in the OP. I'm not sure what subjectivity and objectivity mean to you.

Could you share what you mean by subjective and why primary experience is inherently subjective? And why would a secondary reality be inherently objective?


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623200 - 01/16/24 09:49 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

I am of the opinion that if one cannot explain the origin of a thing, that doesn't mean that thing does not exist.

Regarding Subjective:
Quote:

Formed, as in opinions, based upon a person's feelings or intuition, not upon observation or reasoning; coming more from within the observer than from observations of the external environment.

Resulting from or pertaining to personal mindsets or experience, arising from perceptive mental conditions within the brain and not necessarily or directly from external stimuli.

Lacking in reality or substance.

Experienced by a person mentally and not directly verifiable by others.




I am using all of these simultaneously as they are interrelated to me.

As for further explanation, I provided what is a satisfactory explanation of this to me already in the thread and assume that we are now at an impasse. We are interpreting the data differently, it seems.



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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623249 - 01/16/24 10:23 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:

As for further explanation, I provided what is a satisfactory explanation of this to me already in the thread and assume that we are now at an impasse. We are interpreting the data differently, it seems.






I see assertions without explanation:

Quote:

Nillion said:


Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.






Quote:

Nillion said:

If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.






I am also trying to link this to what I was saying about an external reality, adding the ideas of subjectivity seems like an added and unecessary complication. Its adding the idea of a subject with biases, and that this subject is creating its experience. This sounds like the same thing as an external reality. There is some external subject creating this exprience.

I don't directly see anything creating this experience.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623260 - 01/16/24 10:30 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.




Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623315 - 01/16/24 11:07 AM (11 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?

There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.





I think the heavy medication is reserved for people with delusions.

Derealization and depersonalization have some overlaps with what I am saying, however the descriptions of those experiences usually entail being removed from experience, or having expreince dulled in some way, a type of dissociation.  They also are classified as causing problems with functioning in life.

I know several people who had sudden shifts into seeing everything as not real. They had not context for it and thought they might be going crazy. When they went to psychologists or therapists they were told they didn't meet the criteria for a mental illness because they could still function and were happy.

Later on they encountered non dual communities and found others who had similar shifts.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28623324 - 01/16/24 11:13 AM (11 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.



I strongly disagree with that.

What you describe is called a margin of error.
It doesn't negate consistency.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623330 - 01/16/24 11:16 AM (11 days, 8 hours ago)

Freedom, what you call assertions without explanation are valid explanations to me.

At most I can reword them.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623350 - 01/16/24 11:34 AM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Freedom, what you call assertions without explanation are valid explanations to me.

At most I can reword them.





It sounds like you are saying that direct experience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality because direct exprience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality

I don't see any causal connection, or logical explanation


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623358 - 01/16/24 11:40 AM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

and for clarity, I have a genuine interest in understanding your point of view.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623369 - 01/16/24 11:43 AM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Yes, I understand you have do not understand what I am portraying.

Perhaps I am mistaken and my position is incoherent?

It makes perfect sense to me though and I'm not into argument for arguments sake, despite perhaps appearing to do that at times.

No worries!

I've presented my position to my satisfaction and there is nothing in the rule book of life that says we must agree.

My ontological position is that reality is a thing independent of humanity and that reality existed before we did and will exist after the last human is no more than cosmic dust again.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28623374 - 01/16/24 11:49 AM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.

I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.

Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.

I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.




That sounds to me like a kind of view that's like a epistemology bubble where no ontology is palatable. Kind of like conpartmentalising ontology.





Ontologically I'd say direct experience is what exists, although even that is a little tricky because it can't be caught, it keeps flowing, as soon as a moment is recognized its gone, yet here it is flowing by.

As soon as we start to imagine it, we are describing it as other than it is. Thats what thought is, descriptions of things in terms of other things. Its imaginative.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623377 - 01/16/24 11:50 AM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.

At very small scales we acknowledge that other factors must be accounted for, because variation is constant. It isn't enough to measure a thing, to maintain the appearance of consistency many such things must be measured.



I strongly disagree with that.

What you describe is called a margin of error.
It doesn't negate consistency.




Disagree all you want. I'm not sure how variance, the acknowledgment of variance, etc. doesn't negate the idea of some objective consistency. And you provided nothing to say why.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623398 - 01/16/24 12:06 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

I'm not going to explain why margins of error do not invalidate the measurements they pertain to.

I honestly think I shouldn't have to.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623407 - 01/16/24 12:14 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

No one said they do. Margins of error pertain to correlations amongst data sets. Such error does not invalidate correlation. But it is acknowledged and reported for a reason.

If I understand you correctly, you believe consistency within a range is sufficient to establish an object. And although you acknowledge variation occurs, it's occurrence within this range is acceptable.

I'm ok with that. It's only half of what I posted about though.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623412 - 01/16/24 12:18 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Then I find the notion that they invalidate consistency to be spurious.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623417 - 01/16/24 12:20 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)


For me the broader question in relationship to this thread is: consistency of what?

I think most in modern science would not say of an object, but of a relationship. This is what I was attempting to point out in the original post.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28623429 - 01/16/24 12:27 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Who made such a claim?




For all intents and purposes you did:

Quote:

Kickle said:
Consistency is subjective. Measuring someones height in nanometers will vary more from measurement to measurement than rounding to inches. So subjectively we try to use the more consistent measurement and ignore the more subtle differences.





Consistency is literally objective by definition.
If you disagree with this, then we are at an impasse.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623432 - 01/16/24 12:29 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Ok, let's move on to the second part. I'll concede your definition of consistency as objective is workable to discuss something more important imo.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28623443 - 01/16/24 12:35 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

I must be open to the possibility that I am confused and am mistaken about all of this.

It may be the case that I am not intelligent enough to see your point and that my point is too flawed to make sense to others.

I know that accusation has been made repeatedly here at the forum, that I am too stupid to understand basic things. It is not impossible for that to be true.

Given that, and that I have already espoused my position and the ontological context it arises in, I think it best to concede that I am out of my depth here and you may be right and I am wrong, and then I can withdraw from the conversation.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623453 - 01/16/24 12:42 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

I can also appreciate that you didn't insult me or call me delusional for having a different opinion. I see that kind of behavior a lot from philosophically inclined moderators at forums, like the Nexus, and am glad that isn't happening here.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
    #28623461 - 01/16/24 12:47 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
I must be open to the possibility that I am confused and am mistaken about all of this.

It may be the case that I am not intelligent enough to see your point and that my point is too flawed to make sense to others.

I know that accusation has been made repeatedly here at the forum, that I am too stupid to understand basic things. It is not impossible for that to be true.

Given that, and that I have already espoused my position and the ontological context it arises in, I think it best to concede that I am out of my depth here and you may be right and I am wrong, and then I can withdraw from the conversation.





I think the basic thing I'm trying to point to may be not about intelligence but perspective.

I've tried to point it out since I was maybe 6 years old and have had very little or perhaps no success at all!

Lately I've noticed some people in non dual communities seem to see the same thing. This has given me a renewed interest in trying to understand how other people see and how I see and what is going on.

I don't think you're stupid, for a human anyways :lol:

there's probably some species out there that makes us look like amoebas or something


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623465 - 01/16/24 12:49 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

one of the things I wonder about is do people really live through belief.

I have trouble believing that or even understanding how that is possible. It sounds horrible, like being trapped inside of thoughts.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
    #28623517 - 01/16/24 01:32 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

I suspect that beliefs live through people, so to speak.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
    #28624140 - 01/17/24 12:24 AM (10 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?




From what I gather Freedoms view aligns with having incorporated elements of solipsism and phenomenalism, characterised by a pronounced skepticism regarding the existence of an external reality. This viewpoint appears to place a significant emphasis on epistemological considerations, prioritising the understanding and analysis of knowledge primarily through the lens of individual sensory experiences and thoughts. It appears there's a noticeable non-commitment to ontological assertions within this viewpoint though, indicated by a reluctance to definitively acknowledge or deny the independent existence of an external world. An approach that seems to reflect a deep focus on the subjective interpretation of reality, with less concern for making concrete claims about the nature of existence itself.

It's a view that in essence says, what lies outside of our experiences remains a question open to interpretation, rather than a confirmed reality. To me it suggests a recognition that definitive answers could potentially limit the scope of exploration and inquiry. Personally, I think living with questions and growing through them fosters a mindset of continuous curiosity and pursuit of knowledge, where answers are gateways to further exploration and growth.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/17/24 12:35 AM)


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28624181 - 01/17/24 03:57 AM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

I like to define real as that which doesn't change


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28624189 - 01/17/24 04:39 AM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

only a few abstract relationships do not change, like physics formulae.
change is very real.
everything real is in some kind of flux although the time range varies:
subatomic is extremely fast
chemical reactions can be very fast
single cells and bacteria change quickly
weather is pretty fast
multicellular creatures including us change at a moderate pace but include faster changes within.
buildings last decades to hundreds of years while parts within change faster
trees may last 1000 years but still change daily
rocks change over hundreds of thousands of years
planets change over millions of years
stars change over billions of years


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28624264 - 01/17/24 07:25 AM (10 days, 12 hours ago)

It does speak to the limitations of knowledge and of being human. There is utility in realism as the obvious (how things seem), and utility in being able to revise perception. I don't think there is a goal to believe or not believe. We are all believers in that sense but sure, we can also be questioners and discover the limitations of knowledge and being human.

At the same time, perceptions and working concepts are not inherently fully built models covered in glass and steel, ready to be demolished. Perhaps such models are sometimes built for target practice, which too might be a matter of utility.

That's why I lean rather than believe. Perhaps it is but a dream in which getting hit by a car is "game over", but as has been pointed out these non-subjective conditions seem substantial which is where the utility exists. Beyond that we have semantics to roll around in which is not a terrible thing but all participants probably practice care crossing the street. Whether that's because cars are real or not isn't the substantial bit.

I do get it, but I'm content to utilize perception and speak of how things seem without conjuring doubt... most of the time. I do like the idea of relationship being more fundamental that objects but don't see these perspectives as inherently in conflict but rather different orders of perception.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28624422 - 01/17/24 10:16 AM (10 days, 9 hours ago)

stars fading but we linger on dear


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28624800 - 01/17/24 04:24 PM (10 days, 3 hours ago)

I think where we land depends on if we think answers stifle curiosity or open gateways to further exploration.


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28625382 - 01/17/24 10:49 PM (9 days, 20 hours ago)

I don't think you need to belive in reality for it to exist..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28625390 - 01/17/24 11:03 PM (9 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I don't think you need to belive in reality for it to exist..



agreed.
just don't get in its way or on its bad side, and you will be fine.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28625449 - 01/18/24 12:26 AM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

That means reality is objective..

Subjectively i would like to be aligned with something that is objective..

And to further, is something that is objective true necessarily?


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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28625748 - 01/18/24 10:21 AM (9 days, 9 hours ago)

Wouldn't that mean it's subjective? Being subjected to reality, in whatever form that takes?

Belief =/= subjective experience


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Kickle]
    #28626472 - 01/18/24 08:47 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Subjective, Objective ~ Perhaps best taken together as a relatively semi-or-maybe-quasi corrective means of an incomplete being's way to measure of 'what's?!' temporarily there by way of an otherwise transient other 'what?!', when what's is aspectual in nature to what to us is like maybe but a few mere portions of pure flowingness, slowed down just enough to wake to it grokking like the primordially eternality of energy's power as transformable scenery, maybe...indicative of an absoluteness with no bounds? Maybe not. 

To myself, the terms are almost like when an artist draws a shape, and can utilize variations of any imaginable shape to show *to define* some of the more difficult to depict aspects of anything/something.  Without which, may be nearly  impossible to *point out* - this has evolutionary value, it has great value to a species like ours, depending on where and when and how you decide to imagine what things might be like in any generation leading up to our own all the way back.  Pick something, imagine away - if in said hypothetical imaginary vision, you envision yourself with kin, then being able to discern & convey said discernment of unique variations with respect to either the source, the nature, or the locus ~ or even quality of something in experience only...even that has value.  Imagine, using something like being able to discern what only appears to oneself, and, what appears to those with the same basic genomic configurational settings for our current set of sensory organs - then share the knowledge  a tribe?  Idk, there can be a lot of practical uses for 'drawing a line' or 'outlining/tracing' a shape. 

While maybe *only mentally drawn (*but actually just only mental itself, seeing as the activity itself cannot appear without power, hence - energy based.  Excuse me, I mean bioelectrochemical based) via something like logicvision superimposed via mental imputation, invisible (to others, unless shared of using some skill or way to communicate about a thing, anything) , yet, also is  distinguishable wrt more rare, or, unique modes of being to that of a sentient organism such as ourselves...using a schema of sorts no less.
 
One/two of which is/are: 'Subjective /&/ Objective' (perhaps , not all really 'there' forever, persay.  But, also not departing from us, that is, it is not there without the brain:mind of man to mine thereof of the aboutness about us that's simply there.  Otherwise are there any 'true lines' - first we'd have to agree upon what is a line, etc, etc and go from there.

Imhoe, there is in some sense 'boundaries' or lines, or form, but also, there isn't any I personally know of that remain as we perceive them as persisting in nature of the same form as perceived of by one of our kind.   

At least, not forever at anyways - not for very long in the 'grand scheme' (Neato...look at what we just wrapped right back around to right there, this still right here...) anyways.

We've the power to draw of nature, (in a manner of speaking) a power evolved of nature, an invisible hallucinatory power of simulation of sorts.  What better multimodal, multifaceted formless form is there than that which can't be detected directly by the sensory organs of 'other' species?  Especially the one's wanting to eat us to live...and us them, etc.  I mean, we can not only gain an advantage while we're at 'rest', but actually (potentially) learn...from an paradoxical 'invisibility' advantage, shone only to the organism in and of itself.  How else does a weakling species like ours come this far?  Just look at us today!  Nearly suiciding daily, but having come just over the hill behind which we otherwise might've nearly died out just as soon on by other species looming in the 'shadows' (and the light) too..... It's fucking incredible, it's amazing.

Meanwhile mind, uh, is where, again?
So yeah, virtually, there's an aboutness of these concepts holding some heavy weighted water... of some otherwise almost completely empty matter...but that's neither here, nor there, now is it?
*sry, i fucked an edit - so this is going to disrupt the coherency of this post...well, anyways.
Using said concepts for oneself, or, for conveying intricacies of nature, of space-time while its continually flowing as pure continuity...

So, these rather deceptive, yet calculative, trigonomic, algebraically valuable expressions available to us via a simple slicing of the infinite info availed to us of by pure virtue of being alive to experience life as we do (for now).  Subject/Object distinction into classes (like the two arms of an average human body as we know of them today) by merely folding something into more easily digestible pieces, simpler, more '(de)finitely' sliced piecemeal version better fit for consumption/comprehension/understanding of the world in and around us ~ Objective and Subjective: like the tool weilded of a naturally evolved creature with some artistic & mathematical skill (due to having the correspondent means (ie, an enabling) anatomical region capable of such measurement. 

Insofar as slicing up something enormously too much for mankind's understanding...x PRN' ...again, without our 'clever inventions' (outer-tech-wise, or inter/intra-tech-wise or organically, or, as integral parts of an organism to doing 'such and such') some 'things' might not be as predictable by measuring with say...the some tea leaves (if you know what I mean by that, if not, fuck it) to point out something and another thing to another of our own kin, or just to inform ourselves of something about nature or of nature - anything - or - to inform another person of.
Using an examples, imitations, and comparisons until two individuals of the same species can 'see' or 'define' with their mental imputive ability, the space of said shape as said shape (unless - you know - there's some health condition(s) and or also maybe, idk, highly unique genetics at play: ie. 'in the way'?, :blah:, :blah:, etc)

It's just neat to think of things in all sorts of new ways, how come? why? because it's literally amazingly fucking cooling off at both ends, with each end as unending.  Ah, right, the real reason is.... because any universe with psychedelics?
That (this) universe. fucking. rules.

*Southern baptist/presbyterian preachers'...

(only..not confined to his nor any one 'static' dogma - incomparabley uncool compared to an ever adaptive imperative, just saying...ok, so this preacher voice is, uh.. just using the religion like a stray wild art found in the midst of nature as is...simply for practicing truthfully of some madness due to the sheer amount of love for said universe capable of 'causing' psychedelics to appear, fuck yea.:geordinod:)

voice: can i getten Amen?! *  :lol:

Regardless of truth or untruth, real or unreal; they're both marvelously clever, highly useful, little-big invention(s), in a sense, or a manner of speaking.  In that way - I think they're pretty darn helpful in some ways.  :thumbup:

Also, (note: going to prose mode, sry! ha) telling of the nature of things as bits of compiled stories from touring of what happens when the enfolded trace's back upon itself unto the lingerings of an unfurling, partly askew, partly not you, parted so neatly it tells of the invariable markings of an unmistakable very shiftyshaper...
!A'Visavia!
Almost..as if like a fungus o sorts. 
The (not really) fungus amongus! (oh me! oh my!)
simultaneously cast as an interestingly interwebbing of intranetting genophenomorphia: sharing of a likeness with more surprisingly different differences as spaced so queerly throughout the odds of the oh so (h)e(a)ve-enly hell of la familia.

:chefskiss:

Like the shifting sands of 'time'...on the one hand;
with the shiftyshaper on only remaining hand ~ as each hand come together to shake onwards for a moment awhile longer betwixt uncondtionally naturalness of timeless temporality itself and the big empty; oh, 'they must be in on it together' ~ Said: the already fallen land of our own mortality, upon which we may find our feet moving in the stillness of standing before passing through the always presence of an already aboutness always present - much like the very suchness, as made-up for real, but only for a time together as one sensing two hands ~ praying another two come and pry them open for goodness' sake, man.

Before even firing a single signal with which to lift a finger to point out the already raised hand's housing as inquisitively minded matter hauntingly mixed in like an already cooked deliciously imaginative cake batter growing in & out of a sunburned moonbeam.

Translation:  Homies, stuff was here before us. 
We evolved of some of said stuff. 
If we continue to evolve over the generations, or somehow remain somewhat as we are - although even that can't last forever - via pure technological adaptation (since, even that would genomically effect us over enough time, since its not apart from the flow of things ever flowing...)
Hence, even if we don't 'make it- make it', in a 'our species survives as (x,y,or,z) over 100 trillion kalpas....
To put it extremely crudely....

The shit(show) will still be flow(er)ing...:cheers:

~{Re(x)[infinity]surrected}{mindvomit}~


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (01/18/24 10:01 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,788
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626559 - 01/18/24 10:18 PM (8 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Subjective, Objective ~ Perhaps best taken together as a relatively semi-or-maybe-quasi corrective means of an incomplete being's way to measure of 'what's?!' temporarily there by way of an otherwise transient other 'what?!', when what's is aspectual in nature to what to us is like maybe but a few mere portions of pure flowingness, slowed down just enough to wake to it grokking like the primordially eternality of energy's power as transformable scenery, maybe...indicative of an absoluteness with no bounds? Maybe not. 

To myself, the terms are almost like when an artist draws a shape, and can utilize variations of any imaginable shape to show *to define* some of the more difficult to depict aspects of anything/something.  Without which, may be nearly  impossible to *point out* - this has evolutionary value, it has great value to a species like ours, depending on where and when and how you decide to imagine what things might be like in any generation leading up to our own all the way back.  Pick something, imagine away - if in said hypothetical imaginary vision, you envision yourself with kin, then being able to discern & convey said discernment of unique variations with respect to either the source, the nature, or the locus ~ or even quality of something in experience only...even that has value.  Imagine, using something like being able to discern what only appears to oneself, and, what appears to those with the same basic genomic configurational settings for our current set of sensory organs - then share the knowledge  a tribe?  Idk, there can be a lot of practical uses for 'drawing a line' or 'outlining/tracing' a shape. 

While maybe *only mentally drawn (*but actually just only mental itself, seeing as the activity itself cannot appear without power, hence - energy based.  Excuse me, I mean bioelectrochemical based) via something like logicvision superimposed via mental imputation, invisible (to others, unless shared of using some skill or way to communicate about a thing, anything) , yet, also is  distinguishable wrt more rare, or, unique modes of being to that of a sentient organism such as ourselves...using a schema of sorts no less.
 
One/two of which is/are: 'Subjective /&/ Objective' (perhaps , not all really 'there' forever, persay.  But, also not departing from us, that is, it is not there without the brain:mind of man to mine thereof of the aboutness about us that's simply there.  Otherwise are there any 'true lines' - first we'd have to agree upon what is a line, etc, etc and go from there.

Imhoe, there is in some sense 'boundaries' or lines, or form, but also, there isn't any I personally know of that remain as we perceive them as persisting in nature of the same form as perceived of by one of our kind.   

At least, not forever at anyways - not for very long in the 'grand scheme' (Neato...look at what we just wrapped right back around to right there, this still right here...) anyways.

We've the power to draw of nature, (in a manner of speaking) a power evolved of nature, an invisible hallucinatory power of simulation of sorts.  What better multimodal, multifaceted formless form is there than that which can't be detected directly by the sensory organs of 'other' species?  Especially the one's wanting to eat us to live...and us them, etc.  I mean, we can not only gain an advantage while we're at 'rest', but actually (potentially) learn...from an paradoxical 'invisibility' advantage, shone only to the organism in and of itself.  How else does a weakling species like ours come this far?  Just look at us today!  Nearly suiciding daily, but having come just over the hill behind which we otherwise might've nearly died out just as soon on by other species looming in the 'shadows' (and the light) too..... It's fucking incredible, it's amazing.

Meanwhile mind, uh, is where, again?
So yeah, virtually, there's an aboutness of these concepts holding some heavy weighted water... of some otherwise almost completely empty matter...but that's neither here, nor there, now is it?
*sry, i fucked an edit - so this is going to disrupt the coherency of this post...well, anyways.
Using said concepts for oneself, or, for conveying intricacies of nature, of space-time while its continually flowing as pure continuity...

So, these rather deceptive, yet calculative, trigonomic, algebraically valuable expressions available to us via a simple slicing of the infinite info availed to us of by pure virtue of being alive to experience life as we do (for now).  Subject/Object distinction into classes (like the two arms of an average human body as we know of them today) by merely folding something into more easily digestible pieces, simpler, more '(de)finitely' sliced piecemeal version better fit for consumption/comprehension/understanding of the world in and around us ~ Objective and Subjective: like the tool weilded of a naturally evolved creature with some artistic & mathematical skill (due to having the correspondent means (ie, an enabling) anatomical region capable of such measurement. 

Insofar as slicing up something enormously too much for mankind's understanding...x PRN' ...again, without our 'clever inventions' (outer-tech-wise, or inter/intra-tech-wise or organically, or, as integral parts of an organism to doing 'such and such') some 'things' might not be as predictable by measuring with say...the some tea leaves (if you know what I mean by that, if not, fuck it) to point out something and another thing to another of our own kin, or just to inform ourselves of something about nature or of nature - anything - or - to inform another person of.
Using an examples, imitations, and comparisons until two individuals of the same species can 'see' or 'define' with their mental imputive ability, the space of said shape as said shape (unless - you know - there's some health condition(s) and or also maybe, idk, highly unique genetics at play: ie. 'in the way'?, :blah:, :blah:, etc)

It's just neat to think of things in all sorts of new ways, how come? why? because it's literally amazingly fucking cooling off at both ends, with each end as unending.  Ah, right, the real reason is.... because any universe with psychedelics?
That (this) universe. fucking. rules.

*Southern baptist/presbyterian preachers'...

(only..not confined to his nor any one 'static' dogma - incomparabley uncool compared to an ever adaptive imperative, just saying...ok, so this preacher voice is, uh.. just using the religion like a stray wild art found in the midst of nature as is...simply for practicing truthfully of some madness due to the sheer amount of love for said universe capable of 'causing' psychedelics to appear, fuck yea.:geordinod:)

voice: can i getten Amen?! *  :lol:

Regardless of truth or untruth, real or unreal; they're both marvelously clever, highly useful, little-big invention(s), in a sense, or a manner of speaking.  In that way - I think they're pretty darn helpful in some ways.  :thumbup:

Also, (note: going to prose mode, sry! ha) telling of the nature of things as bits of compiled stories from touring of what happens when the enfolded trace's back upon itself unto the lingerings of an unfurling, partly askew, partly not you, parted so neatly it tells of the invariable markings of an unmistakable very shiftyshaper...
!A'Visavia!
Almost..as if like a fungus o sorts. 
The (not really) fungus amongus! (oh me! oh my!)
simultaneously cast as an interestingly interwebbing of intranetting genophenomorphia: sharing of a likeness with more surprisingly different differences as spaced so queerly throughout the odds of the oh so (h)e(a)ve-enly hell of la familia.

:chefskiss:

Like the shifting sands of 'time'...on the one hand;
with the shiftyshaper on only remaining hand ~ as each hand come together to shake onwards for a moment awhile longer betwixt uncondtionally naturalness of timeless temporality itself and the big empty; oh, 'they must be in on it together' ~ Said: the already fallen land of our own mortality, upon which we may find our feet moving in the stillness of standing before passing through the always presence of an already aboutness always present - much like the very suchness, as made-up for real, but only for a time together as one sensing two hands ~ praying another two come and pry them open for goodness' sake, man.

Before even firing a single signal with which to lift a finger to point out the already raised hand's housing as inquisitively minded matter hauntingly mixed in like an already cooked deliciously imaginative cake batter growing in & out of a sunburned moonbeam.

Translation:  Homies, stuff was here before us. 
We evolved of some of said stuff. 
If we continue to evolve over the generations, or somehow remain somewhat as we are - although even that can't last forever - via pure technological adaptation (since, even that would genomically effect us over enough time, since its not apart from the flow of things ever flowing...)
Hence, even if we don't 'make it- make it', in a 'our species survives as (x,y,or,z) over 100 trillion kalpas....
To put it extremely crudely....

The shit(show) will still be flow(er)ing...:cheers:

~{Re(x)[infinity]surrected}{mindvomit}~





I am the subject, the world is the object, the nature of my experience is a subject of the object. What more do we need?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28626564 - 01/18/24 10:26 PM (8 days, 21 hours ago)

Sltn:fxn.  If the shoe fits?  Take a hike. :cheers:

  As for Need?  I think my body is naturally about to melt and mind meld with that of the goddess (version) of sleep.  :thumbup:

Lastly...

I
Need
You
All
To
Keep
On
Only
Being
Truly
You.

G'nit.
:heart:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,788
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626572 - 01/18/24 10:39 PM (8 days, 20 hours ago)

Sltn:fxn?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
    #28626679 - 01/19/24 02:16 AM (8 days, 17 hours ago)

:pm:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,526
Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626779 - 01/19/24 06:28 AM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

g'mornin.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Posts: 26,657
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28626789 - 01/19/24 06:46 AM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

G'morning.  I finally got some bitter but sweet  ZZZ's in. (# sleep paralysis ftw)

Thank goodness, in approx an hour or so I'll get a glimpse at how yesterday's events either left a mess behind or went without too much of a trace.. fun times in the making fo'sho.

Speaking of works...

I like some what you did with what I think(?) that you might've were going for with some of some of the artwork you shared just last night :thumbup:(iirc, in an "Ai-themed Art" question posed in another PS&P thread by Orgone Conclusion (so?), also - his was pretty cool too btw)

For the sake of my linguistic difficulties, and for all beings...please continue helping in your own little way to make the vulcan mind meld a reality for humanity.  just so long as it's done kindly, may the force Art be with you, RGV. :starwars:
.:thumbup:

:makesmecry:


peace

:atom::poke::burst:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28626798 - 01/19/24 07:04 AM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

even if I were a vulcan, it only would work if contact was made, ergo vulcans do not shake hands.
and being betazoid is unappealing, they take off all their clothes at weddings.
words will have to suffice.

yeah drawing loosely helps a lot for me, and makes me more tolerant of and interested in loose verbal expression as well. (except for engineering - dang those Ikea drawings are the worst!)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28628471 - 01/20/24 11:49 AM (7 days, 7 hours ago)

Ultimate reality is not something we exist in. It's just more than likely to be a simulation.

After many trips,I have come to realize that my body, is just a vessel, and that everything gets recycled.

Why don't I ever remember a past life? Well, if I did have a past life, it would have had,to happen in a different universe, in a different timeline.

When I combined shrooms with lsd, I just saw the ultimate truth. It's very clearly simulated. I just don't know how it is, for now.

It doesn't change my thoughts regarding reality, though


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: skOsH] * 1
    #28628546 - 01/20/24 12:52 PM (7 days, 6 hours ago)

I have no way of imagining the meaning of ultimate reality.
do you mean the last reality we experience, or the reality that eventually everyone agrees about?

ultimate just doesn't make sense on anything so widely scoped.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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