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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing?
#28622034 - 01/15/24 10:53 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago) |
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To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.
I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.
Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.
I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622133 - 01/15/24 12:36 PM (13 days, 59 minutes ago) |
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Rahz said: The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?
Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622140 - 01/15/24 12:46 PM (13 days, 49 minutes ago) |
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Nillion said: Reality is the experience in which things like observation, measurement, laws of physics, the operation of technology etc are all consistent.
If you cannot change the measurement of how tall you are by forming the opinion that you are not tall, or by having the opinion that you are, then you are really that tall.
There is nothing subjective about reality in terms of the viewer, only the experience is subjective, not what is experienced. This is because the subjective aspect of sensory experience is also consistent, it is objectively real or true.
If the subjective nature of perception was definitive it would be self subjective, ergo inconsistent. The idea that perception is subjective is objectively true, this proves that there is objective reality that we experience. Reality is not subjective, no matter what you think about how tall you are, that doesn't change how tall you are. Your subjective experience of tallness doesn't change anything real when it all comes down to it.
Anyone could measure how tall I am and they would all get the same measurement because human beings do not affect reality with their opinions.
We do not determine what reality is. It isn't a matter of subjective opinion.
I can get on board with internal consistence of models of reality, but weather those models have an actual referent or not, I would need more proof than the consistency.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28622161 - 01/15/24 01:06 PM (13 days, 29 minutes ago) |
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I don't see any evidence that supports or denies an external reality.
why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?
Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Rahz]
#28622274 - 01/15/24 02:35 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Rahz said:
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Freedom said:
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Rahz said: The alternative is solipsism? Are there other choices?
Wouldn't solipsism be the belief that reality doesn't exist?
Why would you choose either? I'm saying that not only do we not have to choose, there may be no useful reason to choose.
People often want to know what is true. Understanding the options, perhaps having an appreciation for particular viewpoints, doesn't preclude absence of choice.
I think that's the benefit of not choosing if reason doesn't dictate it. If you already believe something, its hard to have the freedom to explore. If I don't know, then I'm free to look at all possibilities.
There may be something outside my exprience, there not be, perhaps its even something else beyond my ability to comprehend
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Rahz said:
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redgreenvines said: mostly I have no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity, I know my senses are iffy and my experience is introverted, but that puts me (pretty much) how I want to, and how I am best equipped to, enjoy "reality".
in that way, it's personal, but I am keeping it real with reflection in the moment.
Every solipsist is a realist when crossing traffic except the ones who get Darwin awards.
You don't have to believe a video game is real to accept the rules of the game. Seeing a video game as un real doesn't mean the character won't die, in the game.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: lostintimenspc]
#28622752 - 01/15/24 09:41 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago) |
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lostintimenspc said: There is something with a feature, that of 'broadening' - most seem to refer to it as the world or reality. I would say the fact that it broadens, that this is evidence for something existing as reality.
can you say a little more about that?
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623140 - 01/16/24 08:57 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Nillion said:
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Freedom said: why couldn't consistency happen without an external reality?
Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.
I'm not sure I follow you. Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency? Why can a primary reality not be consistent but a secondary reality can? Following this, wouldn't the secondary external reality need a third reality to create its consistency? And then wouldn't the third one need a forth and so on in an infinite regression?
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Nillion said:
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Freedom said: Its not so much as doubting, as a lack of belief in it, and lack of belief against it. Both beliefs seem unnecessary, unprovable and unhelpful.
You write from the perspective that reality exists even as you deny believing in it. Otherwise there is nothing to reject nor say. Your willingness to share a perspective is either a belief that others exists for real, or a belief that we are all in your head and you are just talking to yourself in an elaborate way.
Do you think that a man like me can be a product of your imagination?
Do you have to believe a video game is real to play it? Do you have to believe the story is true to act in a play?
Can I ever think your thoughts or see through your eyes to confirm if my imagination of you is true?
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: The Blind Ass] 2
#28623188 - 01/16/24 09:37 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago) |
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The Blind Ass said:
what prompted the question...in the first place? hhmm?
I think it started way back when
when parents and then teachers, other adults started explaining reality.
It never made sense. It never fit. The belief systems all seem to depend on a first, imaginary step. God. Big bang. Fill in the blank.
And then along with that, the belief systems keep playing hopscotch. Jumping over the known with imaginations, and believing in them.
I watched my peers take on imaginary roles and self concepts. I tried to believe in god or the big bang or being a 'man'. The realness of it ever stuck.
Then I watched and these belief systems were all in conflict. Apparently trapped in arrogant self righteousness, forced into conflict...
Still today. I see people who seem to hardly keep their own lives together think they have the best solution for economic policy or what Israel should do or what other people should do or....
and trying to understand, why is it I could never believe in belief? How is it that others seem to? Do they really? And this belief in an external reality seems to be a core component of that, part of a seed view that grows into belief systems that oppose each other.
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The Blind Ass said:
(phases/spectrum more so than 'lvls', btw - just in case u do read into that)
wrt the sphere of infinitude of consciousness & ditto but for space are generally where I began and started and ended - and it never left the present moment. Still, those are fabricated, in manner of speaking, so to most they wouldn't classify as 'reality' fyi, not for me anyways, but they are neat, in terms of the perspective that they bring about, which can then be utilized when contemplating other things. comprendo?
I don't know. It seems like there is a 'pure' infinity but I don't know how that can be known, as that pure version isn't accessible to thought or knowing. It may be unfabricated for a moment, but then that unfabrication has to become fabricated to remember or to be known.
Also it seems like everything is always the unbounded mind, that this experience of being in a room and a body typing on a computer is happening within the infinite. but this infinite is simply the lack of edges, and an absence is not a thing..
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The Blind Ass said: what persists before a big bang?
this question, 36 years ago, seems to be what freed me from having to believe anything
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623194 - 01/16/24 09:42 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Nillion said:
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Why is it that subjective experience could not be consistent without an external reality to create consistency?
If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.
This seems clear to me so we may be at an impasse.
I'm not sure we're on the same page. I'm using different terms, and defined them in the OP. I'm not sure what subjectivity and objectivity mean to you.
Could you share what you mean by subjective and why primary experience is inherently subjective? And why would a secondary reality be inherently objective?
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623249 - 01/16/24 10:23 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Nillion said:
As for further explanation, I provided what is a satisfactory explanation of this to me already in the thread and assume that we are now at an impasse. We are interpreting the data differently, it seems.
I see assertions without explanation:
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Nillion said:
Because if reality is a subjective perception then it cannot be consistent, unless that subjectivity is based in objective reality. It self negates.
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Nillion said:
If the subjective experience is consistent it is objectively based and not subjective. It's self refuting.
I am also trying to link this to what I was saying about an external reality, adding the ideas of subjectivity seems like an added and unecessary complication. Its adding the idea of a subject with biases, and that this subject is creating its experience. This sounds like the same thing as an external reality. There is some external subject creating this exprience.
I don't directly see anything creating this experience.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623315 - 01/16/24 11:07 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Nillion said: Isn't the origin of the idea that reality doesn't exist actually mental illness?
There are people who have severe deficits in terms of the perception of reality. They often require heavy medication.
I think the heavy medication is reserved for people with delusions.
Derealization and depersonalization have some overlaps with what I am saying, however the descriptions of those experiences usually entail being removed from experience, or having expreince dulled in some way, a type of dissociation. They also are classified as causing problems with functioning in life.
I know several people who had sudden shifts into seeing everything as not real. They had not context for it and thought they might be going crazy. When they went to psychologists or therapists they were told they didn't meet the criteria for a mental illness because they could still function and were happy.
Later on they encountered non dual communities and found others who had similar shifts.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623350 - 01/16/24 11:34 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Nillion said: Freedom, what you call assertions without explanation are valid explanations to me.
At most I can reword them.
It sounds like you are saying that direct experience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality because direct exprience can only be consistent if it is based on an external reality
I don't see any causal connection, or logical explanation
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28623358 - 01/16/24 11:40 AM (12 days, 1 hour ago) |
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and for clarity, I have a genuine interest in understanding your point of view.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: sudly]
#28623374 - 01/16/24 11:49 AM (12 days, 1 hour ago) |
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sudly said:
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Freedom said: To me the idea of reality is the idea that there is something out there that is creating my sense impressions. Its other than my senses and thoughts. So the experience of light is a sensation, and the idea of a photon is a thought, and both these things may point to something outside my experience that may or may not exist.
I don't see any reason to believe that it does or doesn't exist, and leave it as an open question.
Most people seem to believe that there is in fact a reality out there. I don't think this view can be confirmed, as I never experience anything other than my thoughts and sensations, so have no data to confirm anything outside this. Even scientific data appears as sensations and thoughts.
I also don't see any benefit or practical reason for believing that reality does or doesn't exist.
That sounds to me like a kind of view that's like a epistemology bubble where no ontology is palatable. Kind of like conpartmentalising ontology.
Ontologically I'd say direct experience is what exists, although even that is a little tricky because it can't be caught, it keeps flowing, as soon as a moment is recognized its gone, yet here it is flowing by.
As soon as we start to imagine it, we are describing it as other than it is. Thats what thought is, descriptions of things in terms of other things. Its imaginative.
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Nillion]
#28623461 - 01/16/24 12:47 PM (12 days, 47 minutes ago) |
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Nillion said: I must be open to the possibility that I am confused and am mistaken about all of this.
It may be the case that I am not intelligent enough to see your point and that my point is too flawed to make sense to others.
I know that accusation has been made repeatedly here at the forum, that I am too stupid to understand basic things. It is not impossible for that to be true.
Given that, and that I have already espoused my position and the ontological context it arises in, I think it best to concede that I am out of my depth here and you may be right and I am wrong, and then I can withdraw from the conversation.
I think the basic thing I'm trying to point to may be not about intelligence but perspective.
I've tried to point it out since I was maybe 6 years old and have had very little or perhaps no success at all!
Lately I've noticed some people in non dual communities seem to see the same thing. This has given me a renewed interest in trying to understand how other people see and how I see and what is going on.
I don't think you're stupid, for a human anyways 
there's probably some species out there that makes us look like amoebas or something
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Freedom
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Re: What does 'reality' mean to you, and what is the benefit in believing in such a thing? [Re: Freedom]
#28623465 - 01/16/24 12:49 PM (12 days, 45 minutes ago) |
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one of the things I wonder about is do people really live through belief.
I have trouble believing that or even understanding how that is possible. It sounds horrible, like being trapped inside of thoughts.
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