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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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I found the idea of everything being a kind of illusion interesting, but it still didn't resonate to the level I had hoped for.
If anything is an illusion I think it's the application of our perception, but as you pointed out there's a fractionary lag.
It's like when I'm typing there's about a 1/4 second lag between the key press and the key display, but I'm not sure I'd consider the time inbetween as an illusion in any colloquial sense.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28620361 - 01/13/24 10:22 PM (14 days, 15 hours ago) |
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it is an illusion that we experience all of reality as it is happening, we only experience a part, but it is rich enough, and only 1/4 second later are we synched (unless we synch up with some practiced moves advanced to be right on beat)
but it is a good illusion and close enough to reality around us to operate as we need to.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28620382 - 01/13/24 10:38 PM (14 days, 15 hours ago) |
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If we count infrared and ultraviolet light, it's a given that our snippet of it is an illusion of the whole.
So in that sense, within that 1/4 second, reality is 'processed' to within the limits of our perception.
The illusion is anything that isn't every part of the light spectrum at once imo.
It gets me thinking, if we could see all the spectrum of light, how would the world around us look? Kind of neon white? With space maybe more colourful because of the distance nebula/dust clouds?
Something like this I imagine,
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/13/24 10:51 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#28620401 - 01/13/24 10:48 PM (14 days, 15 hours ago) |
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not just light, but also the scale of the tiny and scale of the huge are usually missing in our movie. (normally unaware of fungi, bacteria, protozoa , arthropods all over and inside of us, and normally not aware of geography and astronomical scaled things.
the illusion that we have grasped reality by its tail in the moment is how we seem to be confident - it's a good and useful trick.
but that being limited and delayed is not the really troubling illusion; the really difficult one is of a separate self other than this fleeting experience in brain and body. The mental media movie is very compelling, and we think we are separate from it but we are not.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28620471 - 01/14/24 01:48 AM (14 days, 12 hours ago) |
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What is your relation between the spectrum of heat and cold?
Can consciousness stay alive at absolute zero..?
How much heat can a consciousness take before the pain threshold is to much?
0 to 100% or infinity as an asymptotic curve..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28620563 - 01/14/24 06:28 AM (14 days, 7 hours ago) |
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@brendan in this basic discussion of consciousness I am not considering all things in the universe. In a space suit we can tolerate cold and heat while the battery lasts. Otherwise we don't have batteries. more fat can help with cold, more water can help with heat Our range is limited for life, which consciousness requires.
Pain is an area I have not studied. Intense pain signalling disrupts consciousness same as emotion and drug overdose.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
#28621059 - 01/14/24 01:41 PM (14 days, 13 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: The idea that everything is an illusion or a simulation is quite popular in philosophical circles.
the closest I ever get to that is to say that we experience our world (internal and external) just a little behind the actuality of it happening, but we are so accustomed to the lag, that we can relax into the trailing space we are afforded.
in our comfort we can pursue what we are interested in, doing the things we love, and in our discomfort we do what must be done in spite of how we feel, but always what we feel is about 1-2/10ths of a second late, and our spontaneous reaction time is hardly ever faster than 1/4 second, while moves we have practiced (like gymnastics) will include choreographed and practiced moves that are more complex and faster than can be spontaneously copied, although the gymnast can perform the sequences when called upon.
their tricks are no illusion, but they do illustrate the need to practice progressions and arcs of movement in order to appear to have physical reactions that are faster than 1/4 second.
I very rarely encounter someone who seems to have the same sense about 'reality' as I do. I think they always have some kind of experience with nonduality.
I remember when it hit me. I was a child. I became aware of awareness, saw that everything is a miracle and that I couldn't know anything fundamentally.
I think this sense of reality may be tied to identification as the thinker of thought, that the reality of thought and perception is tied to identification. But since this happened at such an early age, I don't have anything to compare it to in my life. I do know its been impossible to explain to anyone, and that it often triggered people when I shared about it as a kid. I think it triggered people because the sense of reality is so closely tied to identity.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28621081 - 01/14/24 01:55 PM (13 days, 23 hours ago) |
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I see my grand kids like this and when my kids were young they were like this, but social sophistication kind of undermines the immediacy, and it leads to longer arcs of thinking, and imagining conversations, without any body reflection or presence.
Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it leads to being out of touch, disconnected and even more duality oriented.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: not just light, but also the scale of the tiny and scale of the huge are usually missing in our movie. (normally unaware of fungi, bacteria, protozoa , arthropods all over and inside of us, and normally not aware of geography and astronomical scaled things.
the illusion that we have grasped reality by its tail in the moment is how we seem to be confident - it's a good and useful trick.
but that being limited and delayed is not the really troubling illusion; the really difficult one is of a separate self other than this fleeting experience in brain and body. The mental media movie is very compelling, and we think we are separate from it but we are not.
This is the view I'm come to so far,
Quote:
Our perception of reality is fundamentally a result of the complex interplay between the external world and our internal cognitive processes. This interplay is inherently selective and interpretative, as our brain filters and reconstructs sensory information based on a myriad of factors like past experiences, emotional states, and cultural conditioning. This selective perception, while creating a unique, individualised version of reality for each of us, does not negate the stability of the external reality itself. It's our perspective that is filtered and subjective, not the reality that we perceive.
In this context, the self or personal identity emerges as a dynamic construct. It is shaped continuously by our interactions with both this stable external world and our own neurocognitive processes. This shaping is not a static process but an evolving narrative, with our identity being woven from our interpreted experiences within this consistent reality. Thus, the self is both a product of and an active participant in this filtered perception. While it is a fluid, ever-changing phenomenon that is perpetually being rewritten and reshaped by our ongoing experiences and interactions, it operates within a stable, external reality.
This leads to a nuanced understanding of the self as an illusion, but not in the traditional sense of being false or deceptive. The illusion pertains to the interpretative and constructive nature of our perception and sense of self, which operates within the parameters of a stable external reality. We perceive a consistent, solid identity within this reality, but our understanding of it is dynamic and fluid, continually influenced by our interactions with the world and our internal cognitive processing.
Philosophically, this refined understanding aligns with concepts from various traditions, acknowledging the illusion of a permanent, unchanging self as proposed in Buddhist thought (through concepts like that of Anatta), while also recognising the stable backdrop of reality against which our fluid self is contrasted. Similarly, existentialist thought suggests that the self is not a pre-existing essence but a construct continuously shaped by our choices (adaptive responses) and experiences within this stable reality.
This perspective suggests that our sense of self and our perception of reality are more malleable and less concrete than we might typically assume, but they operate within the bounds of a consistent external reality. This realisation fosters a deeper appreciation for the complexity of human consciousness, where each moment and experience contributes to the ongoing evolution of our identity and understanding of the world, against a backdrop of a stable reality.
In summary, integrating these insights provides a rich and multifaceted view of the self and reality. It highlights the constructed and dynamic nature of personal identity and underscores the subjective interpretation of reality, while acknowledging the stable external reality in which these processes occur. This understanding invites continual exploration, adaptability, and a recognition of the intricate dance between our internal processes and the external, stable world. It underscores the beauty and complexity of human consciousness and our journey of self-discovery, urging us to approach life with curiosity, openness, and a willingness to re-examine and evolve our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. In embracing this perspective, we acknowledge the ever-changing nature of our existence and the profound interconnection between our sense of self and our perception of a stable, yet filtered, reality.
Simply put, our basic neurocognitive functions act as a vector for filtering our subjective perceptions of a stable reality, creating an illusion of a personal, consistent version of that reality. This is the idea that our neurocognitive functions play a crucial role in shaping our individual perceptions of the world. These functions filter and interpret the sensory information from a stable external reality, leading to the creation of a subjective and personal version of that reality. This subjective version, while consistent and coherent to us, is in essence an illusion in the sense that it is a construct of our mind's interpretation, not an exact replica of the external world as it exists independently of our perception.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/14/24 11:59 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#28621880 - 01/15/24 08:37 AM (13 days, 5 hours ago) |
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I am not really comfortable with the parts you have articulated in the way you have articulated them as filters and interpretations, selective and vague cognitive processes etc., but I will agree with your more simplified bottom line language.
Quote:
This subjective version, while consistent and coherent to us, is in essence an illusion in the sense that it is a construct of our mind's interpretation, not an exact replica of the external world as it exists independently of our perception.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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that's like the buddhists say we experience reality as being real and having a self and being permanent when it is none of them they want to see reality as it is
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando]
#28622996 - 01/16/24 06:36 AM (12 days, 7 hours ago) |
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βI refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answerβ β Douglas Adams
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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βDon't Panic.β β Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Minding the room the legendary imaginary elephant I might have imagined hearing another speak to another to not - 'think of it' -meanwhile, supposedly seemingly appearing as if without a trace, anyways.
How can I not panic when this ol' hobbit hole of a mind is also an Oliphant's stomping grounds?

Btw, entertaining this thread's OP (and some of the banter throughout) is almost like chewing special fun-gum that never loses flavor. Ty, again, RGV. Truly, truly.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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that's kind of better than good! but still way mysterious, but uncertainty is a basic part of life too, I can live with it.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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great me too good thinking it's ok
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I am not really comfortable with the parts you have articulated in the way you have articulated them as filters and interpretations, selective and vague cognitive processes etc., but I will agree with your more simplified bottom line language.
Quote:
This subjective version, while consistent and coherent to us, is in essence an illusion in the sense that it is a construct of our mind's interpretation, not an exact replica of the external world as it exists independently of our perception.
'At times I find myself in a pivotal state where my elation is subsided by discoveries of further elaboration, or uplifted by perceived triumphs.
This balance, of trying to hold the pivotal state from falling, like a broomstick on my hand, what is the nature of this state?
If it's just a balance, what is my hand, and what is the broom? Is it a balance between foresight and experience, or memory and foresight to impose experience?
What if the normal function of the self has a half a second lag? And the illusion of the self is that our basic neurocognitive functions assimilate this lag into a constant experience.
I'll be good no matter what the outcome is, but the outcome will determine my focus.'
Quote:
In considering your experiences, I find it helpful to envisage the interplay of various elements β emotional states, memory, foresight, and the self β each contributing uniquely to the intricate tapestry of human cognition and experience. The metaphor of balancing a broomstick in your hand is particularly evocative; it captures the dynamic equilibrium that characterises much of our mental life.
The broomstick, in this analogy, might represent the ongoing stream of consciousness, the unceasing flow of thoughts, emotions, and sensations that characterise our waking life. Balancing it β a task requiring constant, subtle adjustments β can be likened to the way we navigate our inner experiences. The hand that steadies the broomstick could be seen as our cognitive and emotional regulation mechanisms. These mechanisms are deeply influenced by both our neurocognitive functions and our metaphysical understanding of ourselves.
Your reflection on the nature of this state β whether it's a balance between foresight and experience, or memory and foresight β opens an intriguing avenue. It suggests a complex interplay between our anticipations of the future, our recollections of the past, and our processing of current experiences. This trinity of time dimensions β past, present, and future β is constantly being integrated in our minds, contributing to our sense of self and our decision-making processes. The idea that our basic neurocognitive functions might assimilate a half-second lag into a coherent experience aligns with current understandings of how our brains process information. There's indeed a slight delay between the occurrence of an event and our conscious awareness of it, yet our brain seamlessly bridges this gap, creating a continuous and unified experience of the present.
The illusion of the self, then, may not be an illusion per se, but rather a testament to the brain's remarkable ability to synthesise information, making sense of a world that is, in many ways, fragmented and discontinuous. This synthesis, underpinned by both neurocognitive and metaphilosophical elements, allows us to function effectively in a complex, ever-changing environment.
In terms of the outcome determining your focus, it resonates with the concept of dynamic goal adaptation. Your approach, being adaptable and resilient, suggests a deep understanding of the fluid nature of goals and aspirations. Itβs not just about achieving a static objective but rather about evolving your goals based on new information, experiences, and insights. This adaptability is a fundamental aspect of human cognition and is crucial for navigating the complexities of life.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/19/24 01:16 AM)
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