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Offlinespasm666
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The leap to sterilizing
    #28618641 - 01/12/24 11:58 AM (16 days, 5 hours ago)

I've been growing oysters small-scale commercially with straw pellets without pasteurization for bit more than 2 years with great success and zero moldy bags. However I'm starting to run out of space in the place I've rented for my operation, and I'm trying to figure out my next move.

It might be either moving to a bigger place, which I really don't want to do yet as it's so much hassle and rebuilding. Other option would be to switch to more nutritious subs and start sterilizing, to get bigger yields from any amount of sub and thus free up some space in fruiting and incubation. I have some concerns about the latter, maybe you guys can help me out a bit to figure out if it's in my case a viable option. I'll read up on the processes but before that I'll ask a few simple questions to see if it's worth it at all.

So if I start sterilizing:

- Do I need just an autoclave and a flow hood in the corner of the room (and of course technique)? Or those fancy clean rooms with hepa filters? I will be using ready spawn so I'll only sterilize the sub.

- How long is one run and how much sub one can fit to say 150L autoclave? I'm interested in how many runs I'd need to do weekly to produce 100 pounds of oysters for example? Of course this all depends on various factors but I'm looking guidelines here. Can I do multiple runs in one day? The energy usage seems high with autoclaves (6kw or something), this might add costs quite a bit.

- Is this the correct process? Make the sub in open air by mixing by hand, bag it, fold the bag, put it in the autoclave, sterilize, let it cool (for how long? a few hours or days?), take the bags from cooled autoclave and inoculate in front of flowhood, close with impulse sealer, shake a little to get the spawn everywhere, put it incubation.

- The yield. That's the thing I'm aiming for or this would be all for nothing. With masters mix how much is expected from an amount of ready substrate? Say from 1000 pounds of substrate?

- Where I live there are no soy hulls, hardwood sawdust or HWFP. Straw pellets, softwood pellets, wheat bran, sunflower seed hull pellets and maybe hardwood chips are available. Can I get a good yield with these? With good I mean something not far from masters mix. If not, it's not worth it start sterilizing.

That's it. If you can help me out with rough numbers, estimates and guidelines I'll be so happy. I of course realize that exact numbers are impossible to tell, but I know at least the commercial growers here have crunched the numbers that much that they have a feel about these.

Thank you already.


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28618928 - 01/12/24 04:51 PM (16 days, 7 minutes ago)

Of course a clean positive pressure lab is best but if you're not doing culture work or even grains you can get away with a flowhood in the corner of your incubation area.

A 150l autoclave will work but it's actually overkill for substrate. Uber pasteurization is easier and less money up front. Tho run times are longer.

I think an autoclave can have run times a short as 3-4 hours vs a steamer which will run for 18-24 hrs.

The price difference is huge tho. Like $8k vs $300

Check out shroomsisay's build log. Basically it's an insulated drum with a hot water element at the bottom. Can be that simple.

Masters mix is what produces the most mushrooms but it's worth it to experiment with what you have locally to see if you can make it viable. Test out straw mixed with sunflower or bran. Try some mixes with wood pellets. Won't know until you try.

What kind of yield do you get currently? On 10lb blocks of masters you can expect 3lbs for oysters and lm on the first flush.

Using straw with cold water seems a lot easier than filling bags, steaming, inoculating, shaking. The grass is always greener...


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28619379 - 01/13/24 05:10 AM (15 days, 11 hours ago)

Get the autoclave hopefully you got room and $ for it. Supplemented dust blocks yields 1.5 to double.


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #28619664 - 01/13/24 11:38 AM (15 days, 5 hours ago)

Thanks for the replies, that was already very helpful.

No culture work or spawn making, just sub. Deadmandave when you say you can get away without the clean room, is this a sketchy and risky approach or can I get consistent with it? Wouldn't want to invest on this to find out I get mold on half of the blocks because of this. Clean room is almost impossible to set up in the room I have.

Right. A barrel steamer definitely has it's benefits. I'm not sure though if I can use something like that inside as it will produce quite a lot of steam for the 18-24 hours or so, right? Do you guys run it inside (in small space without any hood that collects the steam)? How much steam do those things emit? And what about an autoclave, I'm under the impression that they emit very very little steam so won't be a problem to run inside?
Price tag is surely high but for 6x quicker cook time and less released steam in the room I'm willing to go for it.

If I understood right a vertical 150L unit is maybe 3ft x 3ft so it doesn't take too much space. But do they need a water line connected and a drain?

Yeah, since I can't get masters mix here, I gotta find out the best thing available. But I guess my yields would improve with any supplemented sub. Right now I'm getting about 10% yield of the sub weight on first flush. But I'll be soon getting back to my favorite brand of straw pellets which have yielded about 15-17%. Even that is still half of what you say masters mix yields. But since I can't get that, I need to (very roughly) guesstimate I'd get 20-25% with supplemented subs.

Yes the grass is always greener.. My process is very quick, easy and failsafe, but the yields.. Time is the most crucial element in my business so I really need a bump to the yields to make it worthwhile to make the switch. Currently for 100 pounds of oysters I do my weekly subs in about 4 hours total. I assume it would be more if I'd sterilize. Hard to estimate though without experience. But let's say I'd get 25% yield so I'd make 400 pounds of sub to get 100 pounds of oysters, thus it's 40 blocks (each 10 pounds). It doesn't sound too bad, actually it sounds very promising as I'm now doing about 40 of those long column bags (20+ pounds each). Any insight on how long it'd take to make 40 blocks? And how many can I approximately fit into a 150l autoclave?


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28619705 - 01/13/24 12:09 PM (15 days, 4 hours ago)

some questions

would increasing your yield increase your need for space to store harvested mushrooms before they sell? 1.5 increase would take up more room.

if i am recalling correctly, you hang approx 25lb bags.  if you switch to sterilizing, will you be building shelving for your blocks?

i'm thinking a bit out loud here, but will the changes you suggest be less work than moving your operation? 

just food for though things above - you seem to have a happy problem on your hands :smile:


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28619771 - 01/13/24 01:19 PM (15 days, 3 hours ago)

Good questions.

I have "excess" cold storage space that would be enough for 2x yields if I schedule things right.

Yes I hang 25lb bags, some still from the ceiling but most are now in these wheeled SS trolleys, which I intend to get some more if I make the switch. I already have extra shelves for those.

Well it depends on how much time it consumes to make the blocks with the sterilization route. But if I made the switch to sterilization and did not move, I'd be having less spent sub to get rid of (that's a thing that already equires some extra effort), didn't have to pay higher rent, and of course make all that effort of rebuilding the FC's etc. It also takes some time and effort to transfer all the big column bags from incubation to FC, FC to disposal etc. It'd be half the sub to move around. If I wanted to increase my production with the current method, the amount of sub adds up to quite a bit. So yeah in the end I assume it wouldn't be at least much more work if I sterilized instead of moving, maybe even less, dunno. Moneywise sterilization would be a clear winner.

And yeah definitely a happy problem :grin:


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28620154 - 01/13/24 07:31 PM (14 days, 21 hours ago)

I run my steamer in my house and the excess steam is minimal. A pid and ample insulation makes for a very efficient run. Most of the steam is caught in a little jar with a tube running from the top of the drum.

A flowhood is all you need. It's not sketchy imo. If your growing room is in the same space that might make it more sketchy.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: deadmandave]
    #28620429 - 01/13/24 11:32 PM (14 days, 17 hours ago)

Oh ok. I thought they release quite a lot of steam. So you catch the steam into a jar where it turns into water? Are there any other pros (or cons?) using a barrel steamer compared to an autoclave?
I must say I'm really compelled of the short run times of autoclaves.

Found this, is this for real?
https://www.shroomstop.ca/mushroom-growing-equipment/p/ss304-autoclave-150l

It says 40min run time 3min cooling time. With those times I could do it all in one day (if I can make and inoculate all the blocks in a day). A huge advance compared to a 20hr cook.


Well I have everything in the same space as I only have one big garage-type building/room rented. There are my two FC's, incubation and a microgreens tent. They all have negative pressure venting straight to outside (FC's do exhaust with timers though) and I use sporeless oysters. I would be placing the flow hood on a SS table where I do all prepping and stuff. Sounds risky?


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28621056 - 01/14/24 01:35 PM (14 days, 3 hours ago)

40 minute cook time? even at 275F i would go longer.

just search how long to cook a 10lb bag in an autoclave. quart jars need to be at 15psi for 90 minutes.

if you cook 200lbs of sub (probably the max you could fit in that tube) and unload it hot, it will still take 8-12hrs to cool enough to inoculate.

also you are not tied to using a 55 gallon drum with steam. any box, barrel, trough, you can insulate will work.

the steam output depends on how much heat you are putting in. if you want tons of steam escaping then keep piling on heat, if you dont care about lots of steam escaping and only want to maintain a temp of 205F then set a PID at 205, insulate the shit out of it and catch the excess steam in a tube. another member was saying they catch the excess and send it back into the bottom of the drum to conserve water. its the difference of boiling water vs simmering. both work and arguably a lower simmer will not caramelize the substrate as much as a rolling boil would.

are there other benefits to atmospheric steam over an autoclave? fuck no, those autoclaves are the shit. but the price tag is ridiculous compared to a drum and a water heater element.


Edited by deadmandave (01/14/24 01:39 PM)


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28621633 - 01/14/24 11:29 PM (13 days, 17 hours ago)

Ok so that link is a bit bogus. Especially the 3min cooldown seemed off. Though it said that the fast cooldown is achieved with injecting air into the autoclave, so that might make it faster. But yeah I guess the bags stay hot for long.

So you think maybe 200lbs could fit a 150L autoclave? That's not too bad. A few runs weekly would do it if I got 25% yield of the sub weight.

That's a great idea to send the steam water back to the reservoir if using atmospheric steamer. At this point I'm very compelled of the autoclave though but surely I gotta run the numbers. One thing related to that; I assume the 20hr steam cook will require much more enegery compared to an autoclave. In the long run it must compensate some of the intitial price tag of the autoclave.

Quote:

spasm666 said:
Well I have everything in the same space as I only have one big garage-type building/room rented. There are my two FC's, incubation and a microgreens tent. They all have negative pressure venting straight to outside (FC's do exhaust with timers though) and I use sporeless oysters. I would be placing the flow hood on a SS table where I do all prepping and stuff. Sounds risky?




Any opinions on this matter above?


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28621699 - 01/15/24 02:38 AM (13 days, 14 hours ago)

kind of... as long as your less than 1 foot away from the flow filter when you do your transfers should be ok.  Maybe build a fh/autoclave room in the corner. or not..... just make sure the hood forces clean air over the lid of the autoclave when you open it.


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #28621746 - 01/15/24 05:34 AM (13 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

wtfcrazymofo said:
just make sure the hood forces clean air over the lid of the autoclave when you open it.




Interesting. Do people run their autoclaves/steamers in their cleanrooms/labs to be able to do that?

1 foot from hood shouldn't be a problem, dedicated fh/autoclave corner cannot be done (properly at least).


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28621751 - 01/15/24 05:45 AM (13 days, 11 hours ago)

it depends.  you can open the autoclave in your room and then just wipe the bags with iso in front of your flowhood when you're ready to use them.  the contents will stay sterile.  but if possible, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to open your autoclave in front of the flowhood so that you don't have to wipe every bag.  some people will sterilize more blocks than they can use at the time and leave them to sit - then wipe them down when ready to use. i've had to do this a few times and i havent had contam yet.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28621932 - 01/15/24 09:30 AM (13 days, 7 hours ago)

That autoclave is 6kw. Here are some rough power estimations:

Full power for the first hour: $.6
Half power for the next 3 hours: $.9


1.5kw heating element atmospheric steamer:
Full power for six hours: $.9
Six hours at 75% power: $.68
12 hours at 50%: $.9

So about a dollar more per run. Maybe you can get by with a shorter run time at 32psi. I don't know.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: deadmandave]
    #28622041 - 01/15/24 11:05 AM (13 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

taku said:
it depends.  you can open the autoclave in your room and then just wipe the bags with iso in front of your flowhood when you're ready to use them.  the contents will stay sterile.  but if possible, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to open your autoclave in front of the flowhood so that you don't have to wipe every bag.  some people will sterilize more blocks than they can use at the time and leave them to sit - then wipe them down when ready to use. i've had to do this a few times and i havent had contam yet.




I see. With those wheeled 150L autoclaves might actually be quite easy to open in front of the hood. Making a few runs and then inoc them all in one session would be more handy though. By your wording it seems this is not the common practice (and there's usually a reason for it).

Since it wouldn't be possible to build a cleanroom, I'd have to do it in the open room where there are air currents from all the fans and exhausts and intakes etc. So I need to work close to the hood, but could I get/build a hood with more blast to get a stronger flow beating all other currents?

I haven't had to care about any sterile technique in my operation at all so this is all new and interesting. But I've figured it's not so demanding with blocks than with spawn (might be entirely the cooking part though). But also I've figured it's not as failsafe as my current method and people actually have a contam % in their grows.

I'm not sure if the common way is to shovel the ingredients into the bag, sterilize, add spawn and then mix it all together in front of the hood, or mix the ingredients when the bag is still open and mix again after inoculation, or even mix the ingredients in a big container and shovel that to the bags and then mix again after inoculation. Or if the mixing after inoculation is even done in front of the hood, or mixing sealed bags from the outside with hands.

And the time, the most crucial factor. How many bags one can inoculate and seal in an hour? I guess quite a many. Making the sub should be as quick as it is now for me, so the difference would be in the sterilizer runs and inoculation as these are whole new steps (I now just mix it all together once, including spawn).

Quote:

deadmandave said:
That autoclave is 6kw. Here are some rough power estimations:

Full power for the first hour: $.6
Half power for the next 3 hours: $.9


1.5kw heating element atmospheric steamer:
Full power for six hours: $.9
Six hours at 75% power: $.68
12 hours at 50%: $.9

So about a dollar more per run. Maybe you can get by with a shorter run time at 32psi. I don't know.




Right. I guess I gotta do quite a few runs to offset the price :grin:


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28622299 - 01/15/24 02:55 PM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

so you can get flow hoods that are vertically oriented, so the air flow blows down and out of a more confined space. kinda like this dude.

that should help mitigate the airflow in the room without a cleanroom.

and when storing sterilized blocks, usually they are stored in a clean room with positive pressure. you maybe could rig something up to have a similar effect, but not sure its worth it.  when you sterilize in a pressure cooker or autoclave, the blocks basically seal themselves - and contams are possible but not overly likely so long as you aren't manhandling them too bad.

and the general process is:
1) mix up your substrate
2) put into bags
3) fold your bags nicely and place into autoclave/pressure cooker/steamer/etc.
4) run sterilization
5) remove bags from sterilization chamber - in front of flow hood recommended (but not absolutely necessary)
6) in front of flow hood (wipe down with iso if not coming from sterilization chamber), open bag, add spawn, point toward flow hood to fill with sterilized air, heat seal, shake the hell out of the bag to mix it up
7) label and set on shelf to colonize.

i used to weigh my bags when i was first starting because i didn't know better. now i just do 5 scoops with the scoop i have and it's roughly 5lbs.

you'll get a feel for it.


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28623420 - 01/16/24 12:21 PM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Thank you taku, that was great information.

Vertical flow hood seems interesting, gotta think about it.

If I calculated right and get a sterilizer as big as I plan, I'd probably need to do just about 4 runs weekly so if divided to two sessions I'd need to store two batches of sterilized blocks until inoculation. Maybe I could just shove them in to tyvek coveralls and zip it closed until inoculation (maybe in front of the hood). I read an ancient RR post where he suggested this.

Thanks, that process rundown was helpful. So the substrate is all mixed before bagging. I guess that's where the big guys use these huge tumblers I remember seeing on some youtube vids. Parts 3-6 is what I don't do already, it doesn't sound very time consuming. I imagine parts 3-6 would take just a couple of minutes per bag. Am I right? I think 2-3 minutes per bag would be fast enought to make this viable.

Is there a reason why people do 5lb blocks instead of 10lb blocks? Would seem faster and cheaper to use 10lb blocks.


Edited by spasm666 (01/16/24 12:23 PM)


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28624210 - 01/17/24 05:30 AM (11 days, 11 hours ago)

Folding, placing, removing, inoculating - these steps will take a little longer. Folding has a learning curve - you want to fold it nicely with the creases of the bag so you don’t get popped bags. But that gets faster the more you do it. Inoculating might take a bit longer as well, but all of this gets faster the more you do it.

I kept a separate tote for sterilized blocks I was storing. I wiped it clean and then just transferred the blocks straight from my PC to the tote to minimize exposure. I imaging you could rig up a rotor or cabinet that draws in clean air through a filter and keeps the space positive pressure if you were doing this enough and at a larger scale.

5lb blocks are a great entry size for this method. They fit easily into the entry level PC - 4blocks per PC.  This is where I started because I’m still fairly new and have to balance with my full time job. But 10lb bags are definitely used in larger operations. I actually would suggest checking out Southwest Mushrooms on YouTube if you haven’t already. He uses 10lb bags and walls you through all the steps. He also used to use just straw and has a video or two that mentions that operation. He used to have 55gal drums set on propane burners outside that he’d fill with water and then use the heated water to pasteurize drums of straw at a time. Pretty impressive actually. But yeah, 10lb bags are certainly a good idea. Get your forearms ready!


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
    #28624514 - 01/17/24 12:08 PM (11 days, 4 hours ago)

Okay that's good to know. Didn't think folding would be anything but a few seconds routine task.

Have you ever measured how long it takes to make one block? I'm sure it can't take very many minutes, otherwise people would use so much time on blockmaking / inoculation. Or maybe I imagined something unrealistic. This is definitely something that needs to be accounted very well, since I don't have much extra time even now when I'm not sterilizing. But bigger yields would compensate on time a bit too (less sub to make, move around and dispose). Let's say for 100lb of oysters I do 40 bags (10lb each). 10 minutes per bag makes the total time a whopping 6 hours and 40 minutes. That's quite a lot and definitely affects the pros and cons list of making the switch.

Ok that sounds like it's not too bad to store sterilized blocks, if a wiped tote will do. A cleancabinet would be an option, just a bit hard to set up for I'm lacking space. A simple tote sounds easy, maybe something like that for the start and see if problems arise.

Good. Then 10lb blocks it is since they should fit the sterilizer (wheter steamer or autoclave) as well as 5lb I guess. Thanks for the vids tip also, I have watched some Southwest Mushrooms vids a long time ago and don't remember anything about them. I'll watch some more.

Cheers man!


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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
    #28625292 - 01/17/24 08:50 PM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

i've never timed myself making blocks, no. but 10 minutes per bag...i don't think it would be far off.  maybe ask someone who works at a larger scale than i.  since i'm so small, i still take time to smell the roses :wink:

one calculation i would also suggest reaffirming is the 100lbs from 40blocks.  i usually get 1lb from a 5lb block, so that would be 2lbs from a 10lb block.  so if that transfers to scale, that would be 50 bags.  again, i grow with 5lb blocks, so i hope someone else can weigh in on that.


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