|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
#28586809 - 12/17/23 12:47 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: then a right appears to be the positive side of a restictive law. For example its against the law to murder someone, so we could possibly infer that there is a right to life. Laws against theft imply a right to ownership.
So the laws prohibiting blocking traffic may imply a right to travel without being blocked in the specific ways the law says you can't block traffic.
I think we agree here, but when you take exception to what I consider the legitimate use of words, 'rights' or 'should' I will point out there are generally accepted semantics to support my use of those words, hoping for not specifically for consensus but at least enough understanding to facilitate the conversation.
And while I don't mind exploring semantics I might think there is some level of disingenuity in saying "its my understanding of how the word is used" when I suppose you're aware those words are and have been used in other ways.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 5 minutes, 20 seconds
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28586820 - 12/17/23 12:57 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
|
|
From the context of the OP I made an assumption about your use of the word. I don't understand why you would ask the question from a legal perspective, as we can just look up the law, there doesn't seem much to discuss there
i don't see anyone's use of words as legitimate or illegitmate, words can be used in lots of ways. it takes skill both to speak or write and to comprehend someone. to expect it to always work seems like a set up to be disapointed. especially on the internet. you don't know much about me and my background and the context i use to understand words.
if you assume insincerity, there isn't much possible here
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
#28586848 - 12/17/23 01:23 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
|
|
I know you're an intelligent perceptive adult who's been alive for a while. That's all I need to know to suppose you're aware the word is used in more ways than you suggested. Not the same as your understanding.
Law is ultimately based on individual opinions which is what I was asking for. If that wasn't clear it should have been when I mentioned your opinion being a valid answer.
In so much as I do know you, I don't know why this was necessary. I wonder.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] 1
#28586857 - 12/17/23 01:32 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
|
|
In Canada we have a charter of rights and freedoms I think it is a good start
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
|
In addition to the possibility of them being officially taken away, rights and freedoms end if the power structure simply quits enforcing them, or selectively enforces them.
A thread I started a couple years ago, where I argued there were no rights, only privileges.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27589512#27589512
Different semantics, but my position hasn't really changed. The reason I'm bumping this thread. I watched a speech by Yuval Noah Harari.
His argument is that rights are like religion. They're fiction.
I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.
I take issue with the idea of God given rights. As if they exist regardless of whether people believe they exist. While it's geared toward making them above reproach it also abdicates responsibility to some level. If a right is God given, right will win the day. For a Western person who's lived in relative freedom their whole life perhaps this makes sense.
What makes a right "fundamental"? Agreeing that a person has a freedom even if we don't want them to. This notion is I suppose as old as time in the minds of various individuals but was recorded to a degree in ancient Greece (citizens have rights) which influenced the Enlightenment. What's interesting is that the widespread adoption of fundamental rights can be associated with the same period in which religion began to be openly disputed. An issue at the time was the inability to abandon religion all together and instead Deism became popular. There was still one might surmise a potential fiction that supported the existence of rights.
Anyway, the reason I started this thread. A lot of people seem to think there's nothing wrong with blocking traffic in street protests, as in, the question of liberty never enters their mind or is discussed.
I consider Modern Liberalism to be the continuation of the Enlightenment. Is Modern Liberalism dying? Perhaps that would have been a better thread title.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 5 minutes, 20 seconds
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28604331 - 12/31/23 08:36 AM (28 days, 5 hours ago) |
|
|
Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.
In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.
So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] 1
#28604461 - 12/31/23 10:39 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: Is blocking traffic a legitimate/effective way to protest?
Legit? Sure.
Effective? I doubt it.
Intelligent? I don't think so.
Dangerous? I think it can result in a Darwin award.
I'm not even sure lining up on sidewalks and screaming at people is productive either.
I think that's amateur-testing, not pro-testing.
A salient point seems to be a lot more productive than acting like a member of the Westboro Baptist Church.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom]
#28605567 - 01/01/24 09:01 AM (27 days, 4 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: Nice Rhaz, I love that version of rights.
In the US the conflict escalation has led to rhetoric where politicians are pushing a disenfranchisement view. On the left its minority groups that are disenfrachised, on the right its everybody on the right.
So perhaps part of whats happening is people feel less invested in shared rights when they feel like they aren't included.
I think we share a lot of opinions. Our semantics differ somewhat. I suppose that's pretty normal.
FWIW, I highlighted two definitions, not to say I was right and you were wrong. I assumed you saw that, but often my assumptions are part of the problem.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 5 minutes, 20 seconds
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz] 1
#28606341 - 01/01/24 07:13 PM (26 days, 18 hours ago) |
|
|
I really like this point:
Quote:
I disagree. Religion is true or false no matter how many people believe. But the more people believe in rights the more we actually have them.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Freedom] 1
#28613921 - 01/08/24 10:10 AM (20 days, 3 hours ago) |
|
|
Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.
I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28613991 - 01/08/24 11:00 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago) |
|
|
Wait a minute, are you equating occupying the streets with heavy machinery with occupying the streets with people? Ottawa was physically under siege with an organized blockade, that is not a street protest. Removal of the blockade required heavy machinery, removal of street protestors only requires a few police. The scale of it is astonishingly different, and the issues also astonishingly different.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
|
I'm not unaware of that. It's not the scope but the support along political lines that I find interesting. I suppose it would be equally valid to bring up the BLM riots, 2 billion in damages and 20 lives lost. American politicians on the left egged it on.
In all these cases, whether individuals trying to travel, or stay alive, or keep their property, there was obvious infringement of liberty.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,850
Last seen: 5 minutes, 20 seconds
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28614000 - 01/08/24 11:07 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago) |
|
|
tQuote:
Rahz said: Another consideration when I made this post. Many on the right who supported the Ottawa protests frown on the Palestinian street protests. Many on the left supporting the current street protests frowned on the Ottawa protests.
I though it was a good example of how tenuously people support liberty. In both cases the argument can be made that people had their liberty infringed upon. In both cases the proponents will state it was a just action, an infringement of liberty to address an infringement of liberty. In both cases people who had nothing to do with the stated infringement were infringed upon.
i think this is one of those ethical dilema things like with the train tracks
maybe part of the trouble is there aren't clear answers, but our binary tendencies are searching for right and wrong
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28614022 - 01/08/24 11:29 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: I'm not unaware of that. It's not the scope but the support along political lines that I find interesting. I suppose it would be equally valid to bring up the BLM riots, 2 billion in damages and 20 lives lost. American politicians on the left egged it on.
In all these cases, whether individuals trying to travel, or stay alive, or keep their property, there was obvious infringement of liberty.
can you support the fact that the left "egged that on" in the BLM story line, I am aware that the right was pushing to suppress and clear the streets by force, but I am not aware of any egging on in the way that Trump egged on the insurection. The left did oppose the idea of suppression by force, that is not egging on IMO.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
|
I can but of course, it's a nuanced issue. Without clarifications (which didn't get the publicity the original comments got) it's not a stretch to make that case. Clarifications were made. Whether for clarity or for covering their ass is debatable so just one example. Maxine Waters, after much damage and loss of life said "“I hope we get a verdict that says guilty, guilty, guilty, and if we don’t, we cannot go away. We’ve got to stay on the street. We get more active, we’ve got to get more confrontational. We’ve got to make sure that they know that we mean business.” She later clarified when asked that it was the protests and not the riots that needed to be more confrontational despite the atmosphere at the time which suggested that if Chauvin was found innocent there would definitely be an increase in violence and infringement of liberty on random people.
It is the same with Trump. He urged his followers to fight like hell to prevent an illegitimate president, but in the same speech said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
The interesting thing (for me) is that opinions on clarity or ass covering are highly dependent on political orientation. I tend to see it all as dubious behavior and ass covering. Both sides seem to believe only the other side is capable of dog whistling.
I will point out that there were some pretty bad riots in the 60's. If it was entirely peaceful, would we have the civil rights we have today? That's not a question I make assumptions about. In an idealistic sense I like to think so but at any rate it was a successful movement. One could also say the convoy in Alberta was successful. It changed the political landscape via resignations and policy changes. And the number one indicator of whether it was just or unjust to infringe on the liberty of random people, political orientation.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28614084 - 01/08/24 12:56 PM (20 days, 50 minutes ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: ... She later clarified when asked that it was the protests and not the riots that needed to be more confrontational despite the atmosphere at the time which suggested that if Chauvin was found innocent there would definitely be an increase in violence and infringement of liberty on random people. ...
and what did you think about Chauvin's right to extinguish the life out of a shoplifter.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
|
I don't believe death is an appropriate punishment for shoplifting. I think it's odd you would even phrase the question.
Return question. If Chauvin was found not guilty would you have supported continued looting and burning?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28614126 - 01/08/24 01:46 PM (20 days, 22 seconds ago) |
|
|
I would have supported further investigation. In any case, at least you realize that this was about not one improper arrest with deadly consequences, but that there is a legacy of outrageous crime committed by police forces against blacks, which needs to be rectified. The riots are not due to one wrongful death. It is a huge issue, and not exactly something we should be left and right about - unless right means racist abuse is good fun, and I think that is not the case.
Now lets pull back and have a peek at the occupation of Ottawa, wasn't that about mask mandates and immunization misinformation? The enemy in this case is the virus, and people have to work together to manage viral infection cycles especially when millions were dying who had a lot to offer in life.
I don't think this is apples and apples, not even apples and oranges, but in comparing the two types of social unrest, you are going for apples and nutbars here, which tastes ok, but makes no sense really at all.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
|
Quote:
I would have supported further investigation.
Until you got the answer you wanted? My apologies if I've read too much into your words!
So you believe the issue of liberty in regard to individuals who obviously didn't commit original infringements isn't a commonality in these protests? Assuming you answer in the negative, is it me or you that's trying to obfuscate that basic premise that I thought was interesting enough to post about? Is it me or you that's trying to give the context of this thread a political bent?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Street protest [Re: Rahz]
#28614177 - 01/08/24 02:45 PM (19 days, 23 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
I would have supported further investigation.
Until you got the answer you wanted? My apologies if I've read too much into your words!
So you believe the issue of liberty in regard to individuals who obviously didn't commit original infringements isn't a commonality in these protests? Assuming you answer in the negative, is it me or you that's trying to obfuscate that basic premise that I thought was interesting enough to post about? Is it me or you that's trying to give the context of this thread a political bent?
please rephrase this. I am not able to understand what you are getting at. or what you are reacting to.
I said I would have supported further investigation into what was already exposed as a crime on video. i.e. who is blocking the investigations and why. I might expect several efforts to stall and block, but when everyone knows that a lethal crime has been committed, covering it up is not an option that anyone can assume with dignity.
is that what you are talking about?
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
|