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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28616620 - 01/10/24 04:49 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

Not my experience at all.

Perhaps it's a matter of dosage. I usually start small and then coast along.

Or perhaps it's a matter of you not having access to consistent gene lines for long periods of time. Before I started geeking out on developing and testing different lines, I considered every experience about the same. And I'd chalk my own experiences up to confirmation bias if I hadn't heard unsolicited reports which matched them.

I concur that "visuals," "insights," etc., are not going to be directly attributable to variety. But I'd also NEVER say to someone "these are weaker, you can eat more than your usual amount." That's a horribly irresponsible thing to say to anyone about any psychoactive compound. People need to draw their own conclusions and make their own choices. Unless you've meticulously ensured that you have a standardized batch of material with a consistent potency, you could be giving bunk advice. And if you do have that consistently dosed material on-hand, then they can try it and draw their own conclusions for future use.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.


Edited by B Traven (01/10/24 04:50 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28616647 - 01/10/24 05:14 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
Quote:

Different batches of LSD can have different aspects, depending on the purity.




You don’t have to take my word for it, there’s an interview with David Nichols floating around somewhere (I think maybe one of the Hamilton Morris interviews) where he debunks that idea.



I've heard that this was far from debunked.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
Quote:

Serotonin isn't an active psychedelic and also has high affinity for 5HT2a, should we presume that it cannot pass through the brain blood barrier? The logic in the paper along those lines is absurd.




It doesn’t..:shrug:

“Serotonin does not cross the blood–brain barrier“
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457931500455X

“ Serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124334/




I was wrong.
I stand corrected.

This does not change my position that it is absurd to claim that a lack of head twitch activity in test mice for norpsilocin proves it does not pass the blood-brain barrier.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance]
    #28616671 - 01/10/24 05:43 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

I should add, I've not noticed a distinction between cubes that I thought was due to something other than potency and set/setting differences.

Even with nats, I think the difference is more to do with potency than anything else. I know there is some speculation that they have some chemical distinction, but I'd like to see more analysis.

However I also believe that taking different mixtures of chemicals is not the same as taking a single chemical. This is more of an issue when it comes to synthetic molecules and then only when they are not properly purified, but some varieties of cubensis do show higher levels of alkaloids that should affect the metabolism of other alkaloids when they are ingested together.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #28616766 - 01/10/24 07:04 PM (17 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
But I'd also NEVER say to someone "these are weaker, you can eat more than your usual amount." That's a horribly irresponsible thing to say to anyone about any psychoactive compound. People need to draw their own conclusions and make their own choices. Unless you've meticulously ensured that you have a standardized batch of material with a consistent potency, you could be giving bunk advice. And if you do have that consistently dosed material on-hand, then they can try it and draw their own conclusions for future use.




True if you don't know what you're working with. I was mostly referring to the differences between strains you know and have tested, if someone has eaten a 0.5% psilocybin strain from you, and then you give them a strain that consistently tests around 1.5%. I would say it is more than reasonable to say; these are going to be much stronger, if you want to achieve similar results as 0.5% strain, eat about 3x less than you normally would.

On the genetics, I have bred cubensis hybrids and isolated many different types, I haven't particularly noticed any difference between effects outside of potency. I.e I know eating 1g of "x" will be about 3x stronger than eating 1g of "y"


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion]
    #28617037 - 01/10/24 11:51 PM (17 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

I've heard that this was far from debunked.




Got any reputable sources? I’m honestly not not feeling motivated enough right now to go through the trouble of digging up that interview where Dr. Nichols explains it, but I’m fairly confident you could find that on your own if you are interested.

Quote:

This does not change my position that it is absurd to claim that a lack of head twitch activity in test mice for norpsilocin proves it does not pass the blood-brain barrier.




It amazes me when people feel like they are capable of interpreting data different than the the medicinal chemists who actually conducted the research; as though the peer review by those with doctorates in their field of study isn’t doing its job and instead someone with only a precursory understanding can see things in a different way that all of those other highly qualified folks can’t. It’s not that researchers don’t make mistakes, but JFC. Kinda the definition of Dunning Kruger don’t you think?

“The HTR assay provides a reliable assessment of the ability of a compound to cross the blood-brain barrier and exert 5-HT2A receptor-mediated behavioral responses consistent with psychedelic-like activity in humans. (24,25)”

“While the central nervous system (CNS) mediated psychedelic effects of psilocin are well-established, in part attributable to its tertiary dimethylamine structure, norpsilocin─with a corresponding secondary methylamine─does not produce comparable psychedelic-like effects.”

“norpsilocin may not be lipophilic enough to permeate the blood-brain barrier and, therefore, cannot reach the CNS.”

“norpsilocin was one of the most potent compounds at 5-HT2A receptors in vitro yet inactive for HTR in vivo, further supporting our initial hypothesis of poor CNS permeability for this compound.”

“These observations suggest that the secondary methylamine group in norpsilocin impacts its central nervous system (CNS) bioavailability but not its receptor pharmacodynamics.”

Why psilocin is orally active

Quote:

I should add, I've not noticed a distinction between cubes that I thought was due to something other than potency and set/setting differences.




Some common ground; neither have I. For what it’s worth, that also seems to be the majority’s opinion in this thread as well.

Pharmacokinetics/dynamics are always complex, but other than nausea/body load, I’ve also yet to see any convincing reason why one cube would provide a different psychedelic experience from any other cube. Maybe someone will find something in the future, but based on what is known so far combined with my own subjective experiences I’m not holding my breath.


--------------------
👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.


Edited by Icyurmt (01/11/24 12:02 AM)


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Onlineepilectric
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion]
    #28617053 - 01/11/24 12:43 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Different batches of LSD can have different aspects, depending on the purity. Pure LSD is consistent, but not all chemists use chromatography and we are talking about molecules that are active on the microgram level. Do some people still think that trace amounts of ergot alkaloids with strong biological activities somehow wouldn't alter the experience? au contraire! Think again.





thanks. this is what i'm trying to convey to some people for some time but it tends to get rejected :frown:


--------------------
i :heartpump: shroomery

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Edited by epilectric (01/11/24 12:43 AM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: epilectric]
    #28617062 - 01/11/24 01:05 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

I wonder if there is some kind of quantum physics/chemical effect going on that makes LSD so different each time and between different batches. The fact that its active at the microgram scale has to be tied into all the variation in effects.


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Onlineepilectric
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #28617114 - 01/11/24 02:26 AM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

i certainly believe these things to happen. reductionistic views that essentially stem from the 19th century can't grasp this. sure, set & setting play a huge role but there's also other factors at play... chemical, metabolic, neurological and possibly quantum level physics too. life's the trip :mushroom2:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28617124 - 01/11/24 02:50 AM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

Far out :awehigh:

Psychedelics are truly mystical :lsd: :mushroom2:


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28617222 - 01/11/24 05:53 AM (17 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
Quote:

I've heard that this was far from debunked.




Got any reputable sources? I’m honestly not not feeling motivated enough right now to go through the trouble of digging up that interview where Dr. Nichols explains it, but I’m fairly confident you could find that on your own if you are interested.



My primary source on this is private conversation with psychedelic chemists. It's an interesting topic.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
Quote:

This does not change my position that it is absurd to claim that a lack of head twitch activity in test mice for norpsilocin proves it does not pass the blood-brain barrier.




It amazes me when people feel like they are capable of interpreting data different than the the medicinal chemists who actually conducted the research; as though the peer review by those with doctorates in their field of study isn’t doing its job and instead someone with only a precursory understanding can see things in a different way that all of those other highly qualified folks can’t. It’s not that researchers don’t make mistakes, but JFC. Kinda the definition of Dunning Kruger don’t you think?




A lotta bad science gets published.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
“The HTR assay provides a reliable assessment of the ability of a compound to cross the blood-brain barrier and exert 5-HT2A receptor-mediated behavioral responses consistent with psychedelic-like activity in humans. (24,25)”



Nope, that only works with molecules that have the right shape. Just hitting the receptor isn't enough.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
“While the central nervous system (CNS) mediated psychedelic effects of psilocin are well-established, in part attributable to its tertiary dimethylamine structure, norpsilocin─with a corresponding secondary methylamine─does not produce comparable psychedelic-like effects.”



This is accurate.
They are not comparable in terms of affects.


Quote:

Icyurmt said:
“norpsilocin may not be lipophilic enough to permeate the blood-brain barrier and, therefore, cannot reach the CNS.”



Well worded, the word "may" here shows that the conjecture is just that. A proposal not a claim of.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
“norpsilocin was one of the most potent compounds at 5-HT2A receptors in vitro yet inactive for HTR in vivo, further supporting our initial hypothesis of poor CNS permeability for this compound.”



Alternatively the answer could be that the molecule lacks the right shape for it to be psychedelic. Consider Stamets taking Baeocystin and saying that it removed his anxiety and dilated his pupils.  Sure seems like something is crossing the blood-brain barrier to be able to do that. And then Gartz reported activity as well. Turns out that an alternative and more logical explanation for such effects is the shape of the molecule rather than it not reaching the brain.

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
“These observations suggest that the secondary methylamine group in norpsilocin impacts its central nervous system (CNS) bioavailability but not its receptor pharmacodynamics.”



The word suggests there is revealing and one can literally interpret the data quite differently.

Why psilocin is orally active
It is well known that the hydroxylation at the 4 position renders psilocin resistant to metabolism by first pass MAO enzymes. That isn't what makes it a psychedelic though, nor is receptor affinity alone enough.


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Offlineherbstation
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 3
    #28617361 - 01/11/24 08:23 AM (17 days, 14 minutes ago)

My two cents:

This is like asking if two different sausage machines make different flavors of sausage. The machines may be slightly different but the only thing that matters are the ingredients that go in.

Mushrooms being the machine, mindset and setting being the ingredients. It doesn't really matter what machine you use as long as you're a skilled operator with a good recipe. That said, we may eventually find a chemical cocktail of mushroom alkaloids that is more consistent or pleasant than another.

I think since the variety of experience is so wide our current science struggles with trying to correlate environment with outcome. There are so many immeasurable internal factors mitigating the experience that investigating the dose effect of individual compounds is going to be very hard. I think our current best route is to just be consistent. So say "we don't know if these alkaloids have an effect but we may as well all dose people with the same ratio for replicability purposes".

Again, sausage machine. If you're trying to replicate a particular experience then the set and setting (ingredients) probably matter a lot more than the type of mushroom (the machine). In my experience.


--------------------
Expanding my mind until I can join the collective


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OfflinePancyanterA
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: herbstation] * 2
    #28617441 - 01/11/24 10:00 AM (16 days, 22 hours ago)

They can all be such different journeys but I can say this from my personal experience. I went into fully believing it’s all the same thing.

Golden teachers are usually very much in the head.

Burmas are usually highly visual.

I don’t think I care for penis envy at all. It gets weird and confusing. My wife doesn’t even like me on them… I keep wanting to start a thread asking if others have had this experience with penis envy.

One thing about them; they’re a mutant that couldn’t survive in the wild. The effects I’ve had with PE have been very strange with no point or conclusion to reach. Minimal if any afterglow or insight.

I have had one enjoyable journey with PE though. My 4th out of 5 ranging from 2-4grams. Working with some South African Transkei now.


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Offlinetregar
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: PancyanterA]
    #28618389 - 01/12/24 07:08 AM (16 days, 1 hour ago)

Pan cyans not only have 3 times the psilocybin as cubes but high levels of norpsilocin, if u search my pan cyan experiences thread I give the very recent 10 page study that shows norpsilocin hits the 3 adrenal receptors with as much force as mescaline or dmt. Psilocybin plus norpsilocin is teamwork together to give one gorgeous experience. Psilocybin only hits the adrenal receptors lightly.


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