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InvisibleIron Lance
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Do different species of cubes have different effects? * 2
    #28614076 - 01/08/24 12:47 PM (19 days, 19 hours ago)

I am curious, do different sub species of cubes have different perceived “effects”.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 2
    #28614081 - 01/08/24 12:52 PM (19 days, 19 hours ago)

I think the answer is a strong maybe.

Since the amount of alkaloids of a single strain can vary, even in a single batch, it is very difficult to get a clear picture of this.


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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion] * 3
    #28614141 - 01/08/24 02:01 PM (19 days, 18 hours ago)

I haven't noticed any aside from potency. It's usually the same general effects and side effects for the different varieties I've grown.


--------------------
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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Aiko Aiko] * 3
    #28614447 - 01/08/24 07:44 PM (19 days, 12 hours ago)

Set and setting have way more effect on the experience imo


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: CHUCK.HNTR] * 1
    #28614490 - 01/08/24 08:22 PM (19 days, 12 hours ago)

You can think of it like an entourage effect different levels of generally the same compounds. Is it wise to "expect" your trip to produce a certain effect? No, this line of thinking comes from the cannabis industry mainly.

What matters more is potency, because that will change your effects more so than any other compound. I.e how much you're consuming..


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 1
    #28614738 - 01/09/24 02:15 AM (19 days, 6 hours ago)

Im in my experience, yes there is a noticeable difference but it can be somewhat subtle sometimes.

The difference in effects is more pronounced between mutant strains, such as African Transkei compared to PE. Or APE compared to "Dealer Cubes".

I highly recommend checking out this journal entry by psilocybinjunkie. Excellent breakdown of the differences in effects between different Cubenis strains from around the World: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15670901#15670901


--------------------
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Onlineepilectric
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #28614819 - 01/09/24 05:27 AM (19 days, 3 hours ago)

B+
let's C


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 1
    #28614902 - 01/09/24 07:19 AM (19 days, 1 hour ago)

The chemical data suggests some, often peculiar, diversity in the alkaloids of cubes doesn't it?

Baeocystin seems to show up in some tests and not others if I recall correctly.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28615121 - 01/09/24 11:14 AM (18 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
The chemical data suggests some, often peculiar, diversity in the alkaloids of cubes doesn't it?

Baeocystin seems to show up in some tests and not others if I recall correctly.




Baeocystin is a precursor of Psilocybin, generally the more psilocybin you have the higher baeocystin, and psilocin is entirely a degradation product.

You then have the minor alkaloids such as harmane and harmine, etc, they are found in the microgram range usually.

So far, unique compounds haven't really been discovered as far as I'm aware


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance]
    #28615244 - 01/09/24 12:56 PM (18 days, 19 hours ago)

I'm not able to interpret the baeocystin data as being explained well by it being a precursor to psilocybin.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion] * 2
    #28615699 - 01/09/24 08:22 PM (18 days, 12 hours ago)



"Unique" compounds haven't technically been identified yet as the testing isn't fully there yet, it seems most Psilocybe mushrooms are producing similar strings of compounds though with recently discovered terpenoids and strings of harmala-like alkaloids

A bit on Aeruginascin

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.0c02208


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


Edited by Eclipse3130 (01/09/24 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Eclipse3130] * 1
    #28615799 - 01/09/24 10:17 PM (18 days, 10 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

None of those other intermediates/metabolites like Baeocystin or Aeruginascin have been shown to be active either, they would be more likely to contribute to nausea than anything else.

This is something I’ve been putting together to help explain and organize sources. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28512498
It’s still a WIP and subject to change. I also haven’t included anything about the terpenoids ect. yet, but many species produce various terpenoids, I’ll have to read the study when it comes out, though I don’t think it’s likely that they would be having any effect on the experience either.
Biosynthesis of terpenoid natural products in fungi


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Edited by Icyurmt (01/09/24 10:19 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 2
    #28616020 - 01/10/24 06:38 AM (18 days, 1 hour ago)

People claimed NMT was inactive too until it wasn't.

It is not a potent visual psychedelic, but is active.

It stands to reason that the 4 hydroxylated version would have some activity.

That is to say nothing of enzymatic interactions, altered metabolic rates and extended molecular half lives, due to coadministration of molecules that compete, as it were, at the same receptors and as substrates for the same enzymes involved in the metabolism of said molecules.

I think that molecules like baeocystin, when present in modest amounts, could potentially color the experience in a number of ways.


Edited by Nillion (01/10/24 06:40 AM)


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion]
    #28616343 - 01/10/24 12:24 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

People claimed NMT was inactive too until it wasn't.

It is not a potent visual psychedelic, but is active.

It stands to reason that the 4 hydroxylated version would have some activity.





Perhaps if norpsilocin were vaped or there were sufficient inhibition of MAO, otherwise it would be cleared by first pass metabolism before it even reached the brain just like NMT.

“In particular, psilocin produces centrally mediated psychedelic effects in vivo, whereas norpsilocin, differing only by the loss of an N-methyl group, is devoid of psychedelic-like effects. These observations suggest that the secondary methylamine group in norpsilocin impacts its central nervous system (CNS) bioavailability but not its receptor pharmacodynamics.”
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acschemneuro.3c00610


Quote:

I think that molecules like baeocystin, when present in modest amounts, could potentially color the experience in a number of ways.




If that were the case then we should see it reflected in experiences with dried mushrooms vs fresh, as the amounts of those metabolites increase due to cellular damage and drying. As far as I’m aware nobody’s making the claim that dried mushrooms offer a more colored experience though, usually it’s the opposite.

“Generally, there were higher concentrations of all analytes except for psilocin in dried mushroom powder. We found a 27% increase in norbaeocystin, a 12% increase in aeruginascin, a 26% increase in baeocystin, and an 18% increase in psilocybin in comparison to the fresh mushrooms. On the contrary, there was a 34% increase in psilocin in the fresh mushrooms."
https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf


--------------------
👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28616397 - 01/10/24 01:02 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago)

I don't think you understand that when I wrote that that baeocystin can color the experience I did not mean literally.

Likewise, the loss of a single methyl group at the amine for Norpsilocin doesn't mean it isn't psychoactive. I'd wager strongly it is quite active at the TAAR1 receptor, for example. It's structure doesn't make it a strong candidate for a psychedelic effect, merely hitting the 5ht2a receptor isn't enough, the molecule has to have a shape that can refract a chemoelectric signal being transmitted through it when it is in the receptor, in a specific manner. Otherwise even serotonin would be a psychedelic. It isn't. That is a structure to function relationship topic that is more advanced than this discussion but we can go there too if you want.

Likewise, note that NMT was claimed to be inactive over and over as well, until people started isolating and taking it. It is active but less visual than DMT and requires a higher dose for active effects. Again, it is reasonable to believe that baeocystin has similar effects and is active, but less potent than psilocybin. And then we have  Jochen Gartz who took baeocystin and reported it to be active. Jochen is someone who a lot of people hate, but he is legit as fuck in my book. Stamet's took some and reported his anxiety went away and that it caused dilated pupils. The idea that baeocystin has no effects is unsupported. If it has any kind of effect, than taking it with other molecules can color the experience, so to speak. Likewise it can thus potentially relate to distinction of effects reported by users of sacred fungi.

The idea that baeocystin shows up because of drying fungi seems speculative and unsupported by the data. Some dried cubes have more, some have less and this is even in relation to their other alkaloids, so we can throw that concept that it is merely a breakdown product right out the window.

It's NMT all over again.


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion]
    #28616459 - 01/10/24 02:20 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

I don't think you understand that when I wrote that that baeocystin can color the experience I did not mean literally.




Neither did I, simply making the point that if these compounds were actually having an effect then it should be felt with dried mushrooms vs fresh as they have been shown to contain significantly higher ratios. Imo if it is having an effect it’s likely increasing body load/nausea rather than contributing to the psychedelic experience.

Quote:

Likewise, the loss of a single methyl group at the amine for Norpsilocin doesn't mean it isn't psychoactive.




It must however be able to make it to the central nervous system to elicit a response without being broken down first; something that is determined by its structure as that study shows.

Quote:

Likewise, note that NMT was claimed to be inactive over and over as well, until people started isolating and taking it. It is active but less visual than DMT and requires a higher dose for active effects.




Isolated and taken by different ROA to bypass first pass metabolism, or in conjunction with MAOI… That’s not at all the same. It’s not that these metabolites couldn’t be active through different ROA, or be relevant to the effects of something like Psilohuasca, but not at naturally occurring amounts through oral consumption of mushrooms.

Quote:

The idea that baeocystin has no effects is unsupported.




Except by all the recent studies that have been done on it thus far. Its actually the opposite, the idea that baeocystin could have any activity is speculative and only supported by one bioessay by an author whose work has been called into question.

“norpsilocin, differing only by the loss of an N-methyl group, is devoid of psychedelic-like effects.”

“these data would support the hypothesis that baeocystin and norpsilocin may be rendered inactive by metabolism before reaching targets in the central nervous system.”

“As norpsilocin and 4-HT (active forms of baeocystin and norbaeocystin, respectively) are evidenced to be capable of crossing the BBB and bind with 5-HT2A receptors, it was surprising that neither induced significant HTRs at any concentration tested. However, these results concur with previous studies demonstrating these compounds to not significantly induce HTRs in rodents (Sherwood et al., 2020; Glatfelter et al., 2022).”

Quote:

Some dried cubes have more, some have less and this is even in relation to their other alkaloids, so we can throw that concept that it is merely a breakdown product right out the window.




Drying techniques vary and some mushrooms end up damaged more or less than others. You can’t just throw that out the window because you don’t understand or agree with it until you can provide a plausible alternative route for its biosynthesis outside of the psilocybin gene cassette.

Quote:

It's NMT all over again.




More like LSD all over again. I remember when people used to claim different batches of LSD produced different effects too.:shrug:


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Iron Lance] * 1
    #28616525 - 01/10/24 03:14 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

Different batches of LSD can have different aspects, depending on the purity. Pure LSD is consistent, but not all chemists use chromatography and we are talking about molecules that are active on the microgram level. Do some people still think that trace amounts of ergot alkaloids with strong biological activities somehow wouldn't alter the experience? au contraire! Think again.

The idea from Psychedelic-like Activity of Norpsilocin Analogues that a lack of activity means that baeocystin isn't making it to the brain blood barrier; is interesting. The structure alone can explain the lack of activity. Serotonin isn't an active psychedelic and also has high affinity for 5HT2a, should we presume that it cannot pass through the brain blood barrier? The logic in the paper along those lines is absurd. I interpret the data quite differently, the lack of visual activity for norpsilocin can be explained by its structure alone, just the same lack of visual activity of NMT can be, but that doesn't mean it isn't active or cannot pass the brain blood barrier.

As I mentioned, affinity for 5HT2A alone is not enough for psychedelic effect, it is a serotonin receptor and serotonin is not psychedelic. For a molecule to be visually active requires it to have a specific property that literally all visually active psychedelic molecules have. Baeocystin, norpsilocin and NMT all lack this aspect, which is a structure that can make a prismatic change to electrochemical signals being propagated through them at the synapse. This results in such molecules being able to cause little to no synesthesia. Thus despite a strong 5HT2A receptor affinity they aren't strongly visual molecules. This does not mean they are not perceptively psychoactive nor that they are incapable of altering the pharmacology and metabolism of other molecules that interact with the same receptors and enzymes.


As for NMT, this is worth a read:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=300323#post300323


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Nillion]
    #28616549 - 01/10/24 03:38 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Different batches of LSD can have different aspects, depending on the purity.




You don’t have to take my word for it, there’s an interview with David Nichols floating around somewhere (I think maybe one of the Hamilton Morris interviews) where he debunks that idea.

Quote:

Serotonin isn't an active psychedelic and also has high affinity for 5HT2a, should we presume that it cannot pass through the brain blood barrier? The logic in the paper along those lines is absurd.




It doesn’t..:shrug:

“Serotonin does not cross the blood–brain barrier“
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457931500455X

“ Serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124334/


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👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: Icyurmt]
    #28616555 - 01/10/24 03:45 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

There is not nearly enough hard data on any of this, nor is any of the existing data suitably synthesized into a coherent and properly vetted narrative.

My usual broken-record points:

-There's no such thing as psilocybe sub-species, and the term "strain" as we typically use it is incorrect in mycological terms. The word "strain" describes different genetic lines within a colony of mycelium. Our use of it to describe different cultivars, landraces, etc., is probably just the result of everyone being steeped in cannabis culture. Fungal genetics are a lot harder to nail down and stabilize than plant genetics.

-I believe, based on personal experience and tons of trip reports from others, that there are differences in effect between different varieties.

-HOWEVER #1: the starting amount of genetic variation from one variety to the next will vary. A line only a few generations from a wild print will probably have a lot more inherent variation than something that's had a lot of work done, like PE. Also, the work that one cultivator does on a given variety will be different from the work done by others. Different spins of the roulette wheel, so to speak. So, for instance, I'm confident that MY clone lines of Brazilians are qualitatively different from MY lines of Hillbillies. But someone else's versions of those varieties could have very different effects.

-HOWEVER #2: The sort of stuff that people usually ascribe to different varieties- visuals, body load, etc., are probably more often than not the result of set and setting, overal dose, method of ingestion, etc.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Do different species of cubes have different effects? [Re: B Traven] * 3
    #28616596 - 01/10/24 04:28 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

In my personal view I don't think if certain varieties did produce unique effects it would matter anyway. For the simple fact of going into a psychedelic experience expecting something outside of a general idea of the potency of what you're consuming is unwise. I myself haven't noticed any difference between strains besides glaringly obvious potency - but I'm also not looking for any unique effects nor do I experience them.

"This strain will give you visuals"
"This strain will give you insight"
"This strain will give you body euphoria"

All useless and potentially dangerous quotes

"This strain is very strong, potentially start small"

Or "This strain is particularly weak, don't be afraid to take more than you're use to"

Are more legitimate ways of approaching a mushroom trip

Out of all my mushroom experiences I couldn't tell you a single difference between any of them - it's the all encompassing psychedelic experience


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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