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syncro
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Agency, Who is the doer? 5
#28613608 - 01/08/24 04:08 AM (20 days, 10 hours ago) |
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This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.
In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.
This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.
The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!
Edited by syncro (01/08/24 06:12 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom]
#28614800 - 01/09/24 05:03 AM (19 days, 9 hours ago) |
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That which knows. ? We also have that described as Satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So then I ask, does existence know? How about emptiness?
We say no observer, yet to know it would be to contradict it. Perhaps we could say, no separate observer. There are times in immersion or insight that are experienced as selfless, or ego dissolution, but how did you know? It may have been an entirely different kind of thing, but was not some kind of you there in it?
It seems so much of it comes back to limitations of language.
I suppose this is a disclaimer of language. "And yet, even as I speak, Subhuti, I must take back my words as soon as they are uttered, for there are no Buddhas and there are no teachings." Statements like Brahman can't be known - it is that which knows, yet also, Brahman shines - contradictions, not that these bother me in affinity.
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syncro
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Quote:
the foundation is the "me" not the Ego but the deeper Me that is in humans, in sea snails, in trees and even rocks.
its the universal Me that connects everything and is the same in everyone.
the most basic default, yet infinitely wise.
thats the One
I have wondered what is meant by the Son of Man and arrived at them being the same as Ishvara, manifest. :shrugs: Then talking about Kashmir Shaivism the distinction was emphasized between Ishvara and Brahman, the latter the unmoving beyond where the former is manifest. Though it seems distinguishing them is rather arbitrary in practice, as if one is without the other, as if Shakti is distinct from Shiva, form different from emptiness, Holy Spirit different from Christ or the Father. That one throws me for a loop. "I will baptize you with water ... he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." He being Christ presumably. The Holy Spirit is sent for us, yet Christ is there baptizing you. What is need to send another? They are one.
What does she love more than Shiva? Therefore the more one goes to him the more she can enliven, (for him, you, their unity.) They reunite in eye-le three. "Clean up in eyele three please."
Individual agency may want to play. Teacher agency wants you to go into deep silence, yet it empowers play. Fruit is sovereignty, yet they want you to keep discipline and cook all the seeds.
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syncro
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A friend just arrived at an ashram in India on a holy river for an extended stay and program of tapas, say. What I had forgotten somewhat, rather near completely in the wakeful day, as she had too, was peace. She sent pictures and vibes saying it is so easy to exist there! Coming from high plains winter and plugged into the man-net and tech and hope in indulgence, the struggle and stress of mere first world no less. The peace transmitted, the deep beauty of nature and the temple and setting, the atmosphere, from on high on earth such peace.
Not that your words need addressing - the last questions if I understood, not that I did or need to but to enjoy the art, but for dukkha. Nothing needed to do but for dukkha, not to over emphasize but it is. And why for dukkha? As said above compassion is as natural as the next breath in them. Dukkha is the only thing untoward I guess. May all have peace.
When invoking such presence it can only be for one thing-
Sarve Bhavantu Sukinah May everyone, everywhere, be happy
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28629616 - 01/21/24 09:18 AM (7 days, 5 hours ago) |
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On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28629787 - 01/21/24 12:09 PM (7 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Ramana Maharshi; “How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”
Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.
The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.
Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28630686 - 01/22/24 05:59 AM (6 days, 8 hours ago) |
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The free will lady! To arms! Release the frog!

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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28630688 - 01/22/24 06:10 AM (6 days, 8 hours ago) |
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I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.
Edited by syncro (01/22/24 07:12 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630708 - 01/22/24 06:57 AM (6 days, 7 hours ago) |
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JDK: "The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection."
First of all, he is doing repetition, and giving sadhana in the nature of 'self-inquiry', what is the term, vichāra. Second, it describing only half of the process of such as mantra yoga, and not the fruit, which is self-knowledge, atma vidya. As the heart continues to beat while there is life and in vichāra, in a ripened practice the mantra continues, and it acts like a magnetic field as it were, aligning the scattered forces to one. It is the same.
From the quote of the Kena Upanishad: "That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind--that alone is Brahman, not what people worship."
Of course, it is also in what people worship. I'm reminded of seeing recently a quote by a teacher, paraphrased, "All things have essence of light."
The formless type teachings are appealing to me, but saying ways of forms and symbols do not bring the same just says to me they are not practiced to fruition by the speaker. And vichara is a practice, repetition imo, to be brought to fruition, as Ramana said, our normal state is abnormal.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28630799 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (6 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
"Although the self is at all times and in all things, yet it cannot shine in everything, but will shine only in the consciousness, just as a reflection will appear only in polished surfaces."
"One should separate the grain of the pure inner self from the chaff of the body and- other sheaths by the threshing of reason."
Atmabodha
reason, love, concentration, dance, art, works, entheogens
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28630952 - 01/22/24 11:33 AM (6 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Interesting an inverted bifurcation though I'm stereotyping (not judging) - it seems those who seek through form and symbol tend more to the samadhis, void, other-non-worldly, while those who who are inclined to the formless approach in tathatas, mindfulness, tend to grounding in the world, nature, here and now with as it is. I know it's not accurate all the time as they do samadhis, and disappearance seekers have the natural mergings, ...
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28631009 - 01/22/24 12:25 PM (6 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Not an accurate observation though. Say the yogis aim to subdue and transcend the five senses, and the tathata types discern the emptiness of all things. One is the other in effect. I guess it's a personal attraction if a tendency. Do nature people tend more to mindfulness paths, and do users of entheogens?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28631135 - 01/22/24 02:37 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago) |
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The history of the great frog spirit - In the Ramayana there was a little frog in the mud of a river bank, and Lord Ram had rested his staff in the mud, imposing on the little frog, and Ram said, why didn't you say anything? It was because the frog knew who he was. In my mind the little frog became a great spirit who could swallow solar systems like flies. It would be no problem for him to swallow the free will lady.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis]
#28631226 - 01/22/24 04:08 PM (5 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
whether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary
It depends on what one wants. An average person trying to make their way in the world, typically unhappy, worldly, suffering - they are the Buddha it is said, their mind is the essence. Do they need to do anything? Does it serve them to say they don't need to do anything, that they are it already? To say and receive that is not doing nothing. The insight changes one.
It depends on their constitution as said, preference. Can they chill in the now, or do they need that with the "Holy spirit and with fire?" Do they need to stoke the fire of tapas, cultivation? Sincere mindfulness is tapas and cultivation, redoing the neurons, as do entheogens presumably. Use of entheogens is not doing nothing.
So who actually does not practice? What is done without a goal of freedom, starting with getting food in the stomach, etc.?
A point I was thinking of was that all things have their source in their cause which is subtle, in light, if as was said, the gross elements, bodies. The sources of natural things are as much a part of nature and rightfully pursued by choice.
Can it be done without a serious pursuit? The guru's bowl floating upstream against the current, at that level seems to do so effortlessly. What mighty effort was involved? How much time taken, evolution?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28631746 - 01/23/24 06:27 AM (5 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Just to say again about the free will lady, I like her and think she is a good professor. In her realm (physics) she destroys free will. Yet in all things determined so came this weird thing of intuition, hope, sense of self-direction and self-determination, the sense of free will. We've been through it a lot in these forums in recent years. In language and logic, no free will pretty much wins I think. Yet sitting here it still seems not to, in poetry land, wonder and expansion, stillness, potential, dharma and love, etc.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632029 - 01/23/24 11:02 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Streaming in, and, streaming out.
I find I do that, especially in busy phases with the world, I run back and touch the Self as it were, then run away again.
Nb4 before people correct me and say you can never not touch it, so what I mean is going into a different place within, altered experience of meditative bent that reveals that which is not so evident in the normal waking state. And I agree they should be integrated making "the inner like the outer."
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28632090 - 01/23/24 12:16 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago) |
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It kind of blends in, but yes. Maybe not much but have read Dogen. Effective quote.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632262 - 01/23/24 03:57 PM (4 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Beautiful Sufi thing. Later I thought of the nature of the namaha in mantra which means 'honor to' but also 'not me', so, God or essence, not me, which that God feller was so driving.
Here's a standard I considered in whether one 'needs' practices, improvement, or not (including entheogens if chosen...) 
In Vedanta again we have the all described as satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So bliss is foundational, one with existence, one with consciousness. It is not some extra thing we seek but it is realized.
Asking ourselves if we have self-knowledge, we can say, do I exist, am I conscious? These are easy. Then is asked, do I know bliss, am I in it?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633022 - 01/24/24 08:30 AM (4 days, 5 hours ago) |
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"I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28633129 - 01/24/24 10:12 AM (4 days, 4 hours ago) |
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That with Longchenpa, space as enlightened intent, stuck with me. Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633370 - 01/24/24 01:54 PM (4 days, 29 minutes ago) |
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Is that the same channel you recommended to me a while back? It was where I heard the space intent quote and posted it in the quotes thread.
Quote:
spinvis said:
Quote:
syncro said: Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
Muju - Shaseki-shu (Collection of Stone and Sand) - 101. Buddha's Zen;
Quote:
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
I was trying to do a Diamond Sutra dialogue but glad you didn't reply in kind because I would have had to cheat and look at it to continue I think.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28634097 - 01/25/24 07:32 AM (3 days, 6 hours ago) |
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If awareness runs around in rajas, random activity, or is in tamas, darkness or inertia, does it know itself? When there is some tathata juice, it is recognized as not being in those states, or is an agent of their dissipation.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? *DELETED* [Re: spinvis]
#28634894 - 01/25/24 07:23 PM (2 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Post deleted by syncro
Reason for deletion: forget it
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 3
#28635033 - 01/25/24 09:24 PM (2 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Forget what I said - I was arguing effort-no-effort, but the picture shines. Pranams.
Edited by syncro (01/25/24 10:19 PM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635444 - 01/26/24 09:54 AM (2 days, 4 hours ago) |
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"must first purify their own minds"
It is sufficient, but I notice it being the bodies, which is why I like the 'kaya', body vocab, and it is the way my mind works with it, that everything (around dukkha and moksha) is bodies. The trikaya fits well with it, in my way of seeing.
With the image of the likeness of Longchenpa, I was filled with joy, and in the chest, diaphragm, belly was opened, released into that.
Though making without (wrong) thought is sufficient and everything, in the yogas there are emphases on purifying the bodies with subtle elements. Bodies, elements, are mind, and mind is body.
The body takes the form of the practice, or objects, the dharmakaya, anandakaya. I like to see mahamudra as body. It is the same as the form of the mantra which becomes it.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635501 - 01/26/24 10:52 AM (2 days, 3 hours ago) |
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And as many interpretations of these terms as there are souls. I vote take it as you like. Some maintain say Dharmakaya as body of teachings, yet it is also disagreed with as literal. It reminds me of the thought that everyone can write their own version of Ramayana which will join it.
Edited by syncro (01/26/24 10:53 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635522 - 01/26/24 11:20 AM (2 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.
There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.
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syncro
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Re: perturbed
Everyone seems to agree in themselves, I do anyway, on the default waking state. I think I unconsciously do it on purpose, or it's fear, like drinking too much coffee on impulse, and expecting peace.
It reminds of a teacher saying we don't abide due to fear. For me, having the idea that I can now relatively more easily access that sattva, say, the avoidance is even more powerful or subtle, because confidence is there, but I'll choose my suffering instead because, well, the 10000 dharmas we keep with with our precious dukkha. Makes no sense and I don't know.
It's much about where I think I am in life, phases and obligations, financial, social. If I feel any hint of those, I tend to avoid, and stay in what, patterns of varying degrees of angst and habit.
Practices are ripe, but I leave them in the garage. Now I only talk about them. But they do come in snooze land too, fortunately. Insane though for me, to avoid the guru sadhana. A teacher said, when one is hungry, they will eat. It seems fine in that sense, but we only have so many days.
Before someones dismisses guru sadhana, today I found that Longchenpa himself was also very much about that. Not that I don't respect however people do their thing, but it goes to context around the non-effort. Do nothing, BUT, figuratively or otherwise, clean the temple, clean yourself, put on your robes and be there, quite distinct from junk food culture.
On the good side of stupidity, it is also a wonderful dance, or game of hide and seek, lila, whatever that is in us that seems to want to be in dukkha for the great bliss of return.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 2
#28637858 - 01/28/24 09:46 AM (4 hours, 38 minutes ago) |
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Confession is therapeutic, the lamp lit this morning. Seems like months.
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