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syncro
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Agency, Who is the doer? 5
#28613608 - 01/08/24 04:08 AM (19 days, 15 hours ago) |
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This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.
In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.
This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.
The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!
Edited by syncro (01/08/24 06:12 AM)
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28613651 - 01/08/24 05:29 AM (19 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Was meditating last night on cessation. Just watching for when mental or sensory processes came to an end rather than always watching for what is new and exciting.
Turned awareness around at one point, curious if the sense of the observer ever ceased.
The center fell out after a minute or so of this and I was left with a coreless awareness of everything in the field of awareness.
No doer, no watcher.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28613700 - 01/08/24 06:32 AM (19 days, 12 hours ago) |
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I am reminded of the Diamond Sutra.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28613713 - 01/08/24 06:47 AM (19 days, 12 hours ago) |
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The dialectics of the Diamond Sutra is amazing. Do you have a favorite translation or commentary? I started studying and working with Thich Nhat Hanh's while in prison (got busted for growing in '15) and it was very helpful.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Nillion
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28613985 - 01/08/24 10:56 AM (19 days, 8 hours ago) |
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As for translations, some have been better than others, but I don't have my favorite translator memorized. Long ago I had one I liked in book form, but I don't have any copies today.
I ignore every commentary I have read, I have yet to find one I care for. Aren't most commentaries made in the context of lineages? Lineage reminds me of the Rhinoceros Sutra. I like it as much as the Diamond Sutra.
In my ignorance, regarding the Diamond Sutra, I thought there was a literary joke in the work about self not existing and about how if a person explains the work they gain merit, but a person who understands the work knows that there is neither a self to gain the merit nor merit to be had and so none would explain the non-doctrine. The entire thing is as unto a koan in this regard, so it seems. That none who grasps the meaning can speak to it, etc, save indirectly for the comedy of the joke itself. The Sutra itself is quite entertaining in this regard to my simple-minded perspective. The sharp cutting edge of the Diamond in this case being the wit of the one who composed it.
Despite not having found any commentaries I can appreciate so far I am open to the idea of them, what one do you like?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28614008 - 01/08/24 11:14 AM (19 days, 7 hours ago) |
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I've been looking at the red pine one lately. I like it cause he includes excerpts from other commentaries that go into so much detail. Its like hand holding through a deeper contemplation (sometimes hand holding seems appopriate, sometimes independent contemplation seems appropriate)
for example many of the sutras start with "Thus have I heard:", red pine says:
Quote:
Commentators have written volumes on the profundity of evan (thus). Does it mean “like so,” or does it mean “just so”? And what is the difference? Is this sutra the finger that points to the moon, or is it the moon itself? Li Wen-hui says, “‘Thus’ is another word for our nature. Outside of our nature, nothing else is real.” Tao-ch’uan says, “The Way of the ancients was said to be ‘just so.’ For by the time they talked about it, it had already changed. But when the Way changes, where does it go? Spit it out! It doesn’t run off just anywhere. Where does it actually go? Speak! Words won’t burn your mouth. Just: on a clear still night the moon shines alone. So: water doesn’t exist apart from waves. The waves are water.” Chiang Wei-nung says, “When people believe something, they say ‘it is thus.’ When they don’t believe something, they say, ‘it is not thus.’ The Avatamsaka Sutra says, ‘Belief marks the beginning of the Path. It is the mother of virtues and protector of all good dharmas.’ (6) Belief is the first gate on the Path. Hence, this expression is placed at the very beginning.”
Sometimes the slightest change in looking at something can be revealing.
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Nillion
Nobody

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28614021 - 01/08/24 11:28 AM (19 days, 7 hours ago) |
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For me the line could be changed to "long ago in a galaxy far far away" and nothing would be lost or gained.
I suspect that we have different perspectives on the meaning and utility of terms. I am quite simple minded and the nuances and complexities of the wording in the Sutra surely go over my head.
Edited by Nillion (01/08/24 11:29 AM)
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28614176 - 01/08/24 02:45 PM (19 days, 4 hours ago) |
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only God moves things.
all our actions are done by the God part of our consiousness even though our ego fantasizes it was them.
Therefore, no sin committed through you is yours.
If you're an Omnicyclian.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28614189 - 01/08/24 02:59 PM (19 days, 4 hours ago) |
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what is god?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom]
#28614800 - 01/09/24 05:03 AM (18 days, 14 hours ago) |
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That which knows. ? We also have that described as Satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So then I ask, does existence know? How about emptiness?
We say no observer, yet to know it would be to contradict it. Perhaps we could say, no separate observer. There are times in immersion or insight that are experienced as selfless, or ego dissolution, but how did you know? It may have been an entirely different kind of thing, but was not some kind of you there in it?
It seems so much of it comes back to limitations of language.
I suppose this is a disclaimer of language. "And yet, even as I speak, Subhuti, I must take back my words as soon as they are uttered, for there are no Buddhas and there are no teachings." Statements like Brahman can't be known - it is that which knows, yet also, Brahman shines - contradictions, not that these bother me in affinity.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28614814 - 01/09/24 05:21 AM (18 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: only God moves things.
all our actions are done by the God part of our consiousness even though our ego fantasizes it was them.
Therefore, no sin committed through you is yours.
If you're an Omnicyclian.
In Buddhism, the Buddha is more awake than the gods. Maybe totally aligned with God consiousness using your theology. And he doesn't posit that he does anything. But only that when causes and conditions are appropriate, action manifests.
Essentially, when emptiness is perfected, compassion for suffering arises with no more sense of agency than taking a breath. It's just the natural course. Compassion follows emptiness the way the out breath follows the in breath.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28614843 - 01/09/24 06:06 AM (18 days, 13 hours ago) |
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That is a funny contradiction
Some say no self, but who's to say?
I think no one can truly define what we are because words can't really grasp reality
They will always fall short , and with terminology having different nuanced meanings depending who interprets them
What is God? Just a word like Allah or Dao or but it points to that which cannot be boxed
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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BrendanFlock
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Agency is transposed behind and between the very fabric of existence.
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28615909 - 01/10/24 01:46 AM (17 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: what is god?
There is one all-encompassing principle, one soul that embodies all, it is our ego which gives us individuality.
the foundation is the "me" not the Ego but the deeper Me that is in humans, in sea snails, in trees and even rocks.
its the universal Me that connects everything and is the same in everyone.
the most basic default, yet infinitely wise.
thats the One
the "All Encompassing One"
the Omnicyclion.
the One cycle that has all minor cycli within it.
you, me, the fishes in the sea.
forever.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28615948 - 01/10/24 03:36 AM (17 days, 15 hours ago) |
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You are your agency..
Do we have to debate this?
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syncro
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Quote:
the foundation is the "me" not the Ego but the deeper Me that is in humans, in sea snails, in trees and even rocks.
its the universal Me that connects everything and is the same in everyone.
the most basic default, yet infinitely wise.
thats the One
I have wondered what is meant by the Son of Man and arrived at them being the same as Ishvara, manifest. :shrugs: Then talking about Kashmir Shaivism the distinction was emphasized between Ishvara and Brahman, the latter the unmoving beyond where the former is manifest. Though it seems distinguishing them is rather arbitrary in practice, as if one is without the other, as if Shakti is distinct from Shiva, form different from emptiness, Holy Spirit different from Christ or the Father. That one throws me for a loop. "I will baptize you with water ... he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." He being Christ presumably. The Holy Spirit is sent for us, yet Christ is there baptizing you. What is need to send another? They are one.
What does she love more than Shiva? Therefore the more one goes to him the more she can enliven, (for him, you, their unity.) They reunite in eye-le three. "Clean up in eyele three please."
Individual agency may want to play. Teacher agency wants you to go into deep silence, yet it empowers play. Fruit is sovereignty, yet they want you to keep discipline and cook all the seeds.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 4
#28617153 - 01/11/24 04:00 AM (16 days, 15 hours ago) |
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trace back where the question originated from right to the very tippity top of its branches and down to the very most bottom of its roots, then cut them all off and see what remains; regardless of how fanned out things might get, or, of how far apart they might seem, eventually you'll hit the tap of seemingly nothing but something in which is everything & in which everything is contained of as emptiness (in a manner of speaking, but, note - the term itself is highly misleading).
To have a chance at finding it as leading to nowhere beyond the here and now, beyond oneself, whereby one is already present at by the very means by which nothing but pure presence unifying everything can be found as the same as that which is both as what there is to cognize as that as which is being recognized, as that which is the same unity multiplied of its own vast potentiality from having no beginning and knowing no end?
So much power is so enormous it cannot but stand out of itself without anything helping it outside of itself to give it a hand. Nevertheless, meanwhile, everything is everywhere all at once, everyplace is in space, all space is ever expanding infinitary openness, like the eternal phoenix triumphant, the buddha's sly smile while simply referring to suchness as the non-absolute nature of emptiness, a real illusion - even that isn't it, just a simile or metaphor, analogy, something to compare it with which to contrast it with.
Moreover; and, as such, as to the above, 'it' - this question - as to 'doing' is purely naturally of a nature of which its own nature ultimately is unconditionally 'deathless'.
Its funny you know? "The Big Bang" ... Oh, you mean, something just burst and over time particles collided across timelessness itself just to diffuse itself like an ocean without a planet like a planet without a solar system, like a solar system without a galaxy, like a galaxy without a cosmic system - only to express those very things itself, without ever doing a thing but for something akin to a dream dreaming dreamers also capable of dreaming endlessly with a visa granted via the very enchantment of its own luster putting itself into a delusive sleep, in essence, allowing ignorance, which in turn, allows for everything? Without ignorance, there is no awareness, without awareness there is neither perception nor non perception. Without perception nor non perception there is but pure absence of all form - with the absence of all form there is emptiness, with emptiness there is emptiness of even itself - hence - the true nature of things being empty also entailing that the nature of said nature is of a non-absolute emptiness, allowing for something, rather than absolute voidness of all actuality in there would not even be reality? Its primal nondual awareness of oneself and all else as completely intra-interwovenness as plucked by causality of its own doings from becoming forever for all eternity.
But for the eyes, the ears, the noses, the mouths, and arms, how else can something beyond even magic itself not notice this suchness?
without something else for reference is telling of itself....as...telling of itself as placeless.
I like calling it the primordial mind, but who cares what one calls it, it has no name, lmao. my brain structure will function to predict solutions for any and everything it can possibly get its grubby little mitts into, once you dip the tip into infinity's hole, you'd best be damned sure you're double strapped or ready to become aware of a likeness to an all-father, all-mother, all-family, all-in-all, all at once, always already together forever for an eternity chilling out so hard it energetically condenses to a point until merging virtually itself anew before bursting again and so on and so forth. Matter, compounded matter comprised of more basic particulate, as interaction via spacetime's waveletting of light and gravity and other forces upon the world of subatomics; and, further beyond the quantum even, lies nothing but more unlimitedness - the mark of what's already always unbegotten having always already gotten there before you find it, as how can something omnipresent and so omnidirectionally spread infinitely about not always already all potentialities expressing the phenomenon by which something can even come to know of a reality via that something's energy's essentially being the ultimate kingpin of transformation itself?
Also, the aforementioned, as in right here and now itself, is telling itself about how things in general cannot be, or do, or be, or work - in other words - Constancy of Change = Transformation. If not for all things in tandem with every other thing else in general also doing the same, too, then how else could things be, let alone change in order to become what they inevitably be as pure sport-like loving spontaneity?
In short...
No need for there to be a doer and or an agent, simultaneously, No need for there not to be a doer ageing stuff as an agent of the agency of change!...(ha)...but we may as well enjoy being for with it we've been enabled to seem like we are as we seem anyways, at least, for the duration of time of an awareness being such as it is embodied energy of the primordial good-goody-god in whatever the form it is as expressed as, with, by, and or through as you, I, and all sentient lifeforms.
ps. i'm pretty darn exhausted and I'm aware of some technical difficulties and a series of hiccups made throughout my post. Apologies if that makes it difficult to understand, not to mention I perhaps waxed a bit too thicc with the poetic, but, with that said, I do hope the root of the question you asked will be found at some time within the now, as resoundingly so, while not looking outside of what's always within you & you within it.
So long as the gist is crisp enough for you to grokk ~ t'sall more or less, good fun, for goodness itself, and as such, my post will have been made basically good, and, if so, then thank goodness.
Slightly entertaining to entertain pondering these sorts of things, right? I've no claim to absolute truth, I merely let this post flow of vision like artistry to express what I cannot help but suggest of what's been ingested of mind through the senses wandering about without warning. Whether fishing for feedback, of genuine curiosity, or out of compassion to aid another ~ even if at times, technically wrong, or, sometimes totally out of bounds, ... how else can I forge myself, learn critically, while aware without seeing how I do without testing my ignorance thoroughly?
Hopefully, what becomes of it is like an elixir of wisdom worth truly pouring. It's not quite there yet, despite having been a long time coming, and, no matter how long or short the one's life seems to be, what is worthwhile beyond goodness, wisdom, & tempered compassion to one's relative situation as per one's incomplete knowledge of understanding all the facts, something which whenever looking back, seems to thrive on ever more than before? Verily accumulating experience seemingly manifesting as such so as to be pointed untoward?
Well, maybe at another time we can go at it again. To exchange ideas, compare, stare, dare, and a bit more - just not this morning... b/c i'm too tired to edit & revise...despite the wall of shit I now stare at as my workplace begins calling, oh me, oh my, oh goodness gracious...
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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A friend just arrived at an ashram in India on a holy river for an extended stay and program of tapas, say. What I had forgotten somewhat, rather near completely in the wakeful day, as she had too, was peace. She sent pictures and vibes saying it is so easy to exist there! Coming from high plains winter and plugged into the man-net and tech and hope in indulgence, the struggle and stress of mere first world no less. The peace transmitted, the deep beauty of nature and the temple and setting, the atmosphere, from on high on earth such peace.
Not that your words need addressing - the last questions if I understood, not that I did or need to but to enjoy the art, but for dukkha. Nothing needed to do but for dukkha, not to over emphasize but it is. And why for dukkha? As said above compassion is as natural as the next breath in them. Dukkha is the only thing untoward I guess. May all have peace.
When invoking such presence it can only be for one thing-
Sarve Bhavantu Sukinah May everyone, everywhere, be happy
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 2
#28617398 - 01/11/24 09:04 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
the One cycle that has all minor cycli within it.
you, me, the fishes in the sea.
forever.
One of my favorite analogies is that form is the waves, emptiness is the ocean. But without the waves, there is no ocean. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
Closest thing to God I suppose in Buddhism. Emptiness. Which would be like, systemness itself. Impermanence, no self. Interbeing and interconnection. The one major cycle. Cycleness itself. Process itself.
Who is the doer? Process itself. Action itself.
Breakfast arises.
Makes itself. Born of...
84,000 hungry human bellies,
Eggs and oyster mushrooms.
As soon as my stoned ass,
Gets off this couch.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/11/24 09:17 AM)
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
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--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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The morrow man escapes into dreamland!
Rosary crosses.
Building, benefit.
Money shattered and monet spent.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,792
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: You are your agency..
Do we have to debate this?
The whole universe is Me.
that wasnt the ego speaking
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28629410 - 01/21/24 04:11 AM (6 days, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.
In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.
This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.
The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!
Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life - SEPTEMBER 10 - The Thinker Is the Thought;
Quote:
Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28629616 - 01/21/24 09:18 AM (6 days, 9 hours ago) |
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On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28629787 - 01/21/24 12:09 PM (6 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Ramana Maharshi; “How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”
Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.
The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.
Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28630032 - 01/21/24 03:37 PM (6 days, 3 hours ago) |
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I see now how this relates back to something we talked about previously in another thread funnily enough. Since both come from books I'm reading, I'm going to post a few more excerpts from them to give us a glimpse in what they're pointing at.
Quote:
syncro said: On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.
Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life: Daily Meditations with Krishnamurti - AUGUST 1 - Truth Is a State of Being;
Quote:
There is no path to truth, and there are not two truths. Truth is not of the past or of the present, it is timeless; and the man who quotes the truth of the Buddha, of Shankara, of the Christ, or who merely repeats what I am saying, will not find truth, because repetition is not truth. Repetition is a lie. Truth is a state of being which arises when the mind—which seeks to divide, to be exclusive, which can think only in terms of results, of achievement—has come to an end. Only then will there be truth. The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection, and the pursuit of that projection, however noble, is a form of self-worship. Such a being is worshipping himself, and therefore he cannot know truth. Truth is to be known only when we understand the whole process of the mind, that is, when there is no strife.
Jiddu Krishnamurti - The Book of Life: Daily Meditations with Krishnamurti - DECEMBER 25 - The Way of Meditation;
Quote:
Is truth something final, absolute, fixed? We would like it to be absolute because then we could take shelter in it. We would like it to be permanent because then we could hold on to it, find happiness in it. But is truth absolute, continuous, to be experienced over and over again? The repetition of experience is the mere cultivation of memory, is it not? In moments of quietness, I may experience a certain truth, but if I cling to that experience through memory and make it absolute, fixed—is that truth? Is truth the continuation, the cultivation of memory? Or, is truth to be found only when the mind is utterly still? When the mind is not caught in memories, not cultivating memory as the center of recognition, but is aware of everything I am saying, everything I am doing in my relationships, in my activities, seeing the truth of everything as it is from moment to moment—surely, that is the way of meditation, is it not? There is comprehension only when the mind is still, and the mind cannot be still as long as it is ignorant of itself. That ignorance is not dispelled through any form of discipline, through pursuing any authority, ancient or modern. Belief only creates resistance, isolation, and where there is isolation, there is no possibility of tranquillity. Tranquillity comes only when I understand the whole process of myself—the various entities in conflict with each other which compose the “me.” As that is an arduous task, we turn to others to learn various tricks, which we call meditation. The tricks of the mind are not meditation. Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without meditation, there is no self-knowledge.
Quote:
syncro said:
Quote:
Ramana Maharshi; “How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”
Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.
The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.
Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.
So, from the same book as from the quote, it basically continues with the following.
Ramana Maharshi;
Quote:
That which you take to be your normal state is, on the contrary, an abnormal state. . . . Do you have to search for a long time before finding this ‘I’ that is none other than yourself? That is what I mean when I declare that no spiritual discipline (sadhana) is necessary in order to realise the Self. All one asks of you is that you abstain from doing anything whatever (of a disciplinary nature), that you remain calm, and finally that you be that which you really are. You have only to free yourself from the hypnotic spell in which your abnormal state holds you.
Ah well, all this relates in turn again to another book I'm reading on sudden illumination. Very interesting topic! And you're absolutely right as well syncro!
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Asante
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630630 - 01/22/24 03:13 AM (5 days, 15 hours ago) |
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-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28630686 - 01/22/24 05:59 AM (5 days, 13 hours ago) |
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The free will lady! To arms! Release the frog!

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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28630688 - 01/22/24 06:10 AM (5 days, 13 hours ago) |
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I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.
Edited by syncro (01/22/24 07:12 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630708 - 01/22/24 06:57 AM (5 days, 12 hours ago) |
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JDK: "The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection."
First of all, he is doing repetition, and giving sadhana in the nature of 'self-inquiry', what is the term, vichāra. Second, it describing only half of the process of such as mantra yoga, and not the fruit, which is self-knowledge, atma vidya. As the heart continues to beat while there is life and in vichāra, in a ripened practice the mantra continues, and it acts like a magnetic field as it were, aligning the scattered forces to one. It is the same.
From the quote of the Kena Upanishad: "That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind--that alone is Brahman, not what people worship."
Of course, it is also in what people worship. I'm reminded of seeing recently a quote by a teacher, paraphrased, "All things have essence of light."
The formless type teachings are appealing to me, but saying ways of forms and symbols do not bring the same just says to me they are not practiced to fruition by the speaker. And vichara is a practice, repetition imo, to be brought to fruition, as Ramana said, our normal state is abnormal.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28630799 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (5 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
"Although the self is at all times and in all things, yet it cannot shine in everything, but will shine only in the consciousness, just as a reflection will appear only in polished surfaces."
"One should separate the grain of the pure inner self from the chaff of the body and- other sheaths by the threshing of reason."
Atmabodha
reason, love, concentration, dance, art, works, entheogens
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28630800 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (5 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: It is the same.
True that, they are! Btw Krishnamurti also describes the process in full somewhere else but that's not really what's important here.
So it comes back again to wether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary or not. And does it require any concentration, effort, repetition, ripening, etc... or not.
Both are true, depending on the person.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630952 - 01/22/24 11:33 AM (5 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Interesting an inverted bifurcation though I'm stereotyping (not judging) - it seems those who seek through form and symbol tend more to the samadhis, void, other-non-worldly, while those who who are inclined to the formless approach in tathatas, mindfulness, tend to grounding in the world, nature, here and now with as it is. I know it's not accurate all the time as they do samadhis, and disappearance seekers have the natural mergings, ...
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28631009 - 01/22/24 12:25 PM (5 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Not an accurate observation though. Say the yogis aim to subdue and transcend the five senses, and the tathata types discern the emptiness of all things. One is the other in effect. I guess it's a personal attraction if a tendency. Do nature people tend more to mindfulness paths, and do users of entheogens?
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28631021 - 01/22/24 12:33 PM (5 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.
Why was I summoned? I ducked out of the thread.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28631135 - 01/22/24 02:37 PM (5 days, 4 hours ago) |
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The history of the great frog spirit - In the Ramayana there was a little frog in the mud of a river bank, and Lord Ram had rested his staff in the mud, imposing on the little frog, and Ram said, why didn't you say anything? It was because the frog knew who he was. In my mind the little frog became a great spirit who could swallow solar systems like flies. It would be no problem for him to swallow the free will lady.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis]
#28631226 - 01/22/24 04:08 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
whether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary
It depends on what one wants. An average person trying to make their way in the world, typically unhappy, worldly, suffering - they are the Buddha it is said, their mind is the essence. Do they need to do anything? Does it serve them to say they don't need to do anything, that they are it already? To say and receive that is not doing nothing. The insight changes one.
It depends on their constitution as said, preference. Can they chill in the now, or do they need that with the "Holy spirit and with fire?" Do they need to stoke the fire of tapas, cultivation? Sincere mindfulness is tapas and cultivation, redoing the neurons, as do entheogens presumably. Use of entheogens is not doing nothing.
So who actually does not practice? What is done without a goal of freedom, starting with getting food in the stomach, etc.?
A point I was thinking of was that all things have their source in their cause which is subtle, in light, if as was said, the gross elements, bodies. The sources of natural things are as much a part of nature and rightfully pursued by choice.
Can it be done without a serious pursuit? The guru's bowl floating upstream against the current, at that level seems to do so effortlessly. What mighty effort was involved? How much time taken, evolution?
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28631591 - 01/22/24 11:28 PM (4 days, 19 hours ago) |
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A few days ago, while attempting to turn into some quickly moving, bustlingly flow of heavy traffic, an intuition mixed with emotion and notion along with the accompanying of being smack dab in the midst of a genuine (when aren't we, rly tho?) & imminently sensed life or death situation looming overhead. Simply from cptsd just turning into a lane with hardly any room to squeeze in with the heavy flow of a near-stream of vehicular traffic in the way I needed to head at the time. At the time things seemed for a short moment quite surreal; as if, we were in some permutation of the og labyrinth of the entirety of another sort of virgina still following that initial prime directive or something to that efx.
With some or all the vehicles & their drivers (self included) somewhat as if but haphazardly chaotic yet sperm squirming about swimming blindly making up the flow as we go furthermore running headlong into whatever the gauntlet of prezygotic barriers lay in wait in order to defend from least able of the swimmers, and, so those that made it to their prize might be first to fully penetrate and fertilize a (symbolic) ripe ovum.
Then something dawned, nothing profound but it was hearty in nature, one might could say we are alive here now? Then in a manner of speaking, we've already become stream winners - maybe just not in the way of the sotapanna. Either way, I thought, in some ways things haven't changed all too much, even though they have in some ways, on both the 'first in flight' to the egg (and passes the prezygotic exams barrier(s), etc) on that front.
One wants in, the other one wants out. (sort of, i think that's an oversimplification of things putting it rather crudely) And, with the latter once like approx. one(half) of the former.
Streaming in, and, streaming out. Regardless of which - neither of each - Despite if winning or if losing, really do all that much, but there's more to it than that, but in a busy city where it can seem like so many are simultaneously are running around like chickens with their heads cut off going around & around until arriving at their 'destination' - more or less like so - until finally we eventually don't have to any longer. I found it a refreshing relief overall, and even more so once finally returning safely back home to where the balance between relative peace, quite, & harmony was appreciated (as per usual) once again, only a tid bit differently than the usual anew. Netti-Netti.
Anywho, and there's some randoms observation made of a tiniest slice of a moment in time during a day in the life.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28631676 - 01/23/24 03:40 AM (4 days, 15 hours ago) |
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It starts as a serious pursuit, as all projects done by the doer are.
The seriousness gives way to spontaneous action.
That's where the natural path and the path of mindfulness just becomes the path.
The easiest way to tell if someone has some enlightenment, rather a little or a lot, are they spontaneously joyful? Are they funny without being sarcastic, crude, or hurtful? And is all of this joy arising naturally out of the situation without pretense?
If I encounter a dharma teacher or other spiritual teacher without these qualities, I hop my ass the other direction. No clue if free will lady fits that bill, but if so, consider her swallowed.
And thanks for the kind words about frogs. I swallowed a whole universe once, but I was a great serpent that go. Not a frog.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/23/24 03:57 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28631746 - 01/23/24 06:27 AM (4 days, 12 hours ago) |
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Just to say again about the free will lady, I like her and think she is a good professor. In her realm (physics) she destroys free will. Yet in all things determined so came this weird thing of intuition, hope, sense of self-direction and self-determination, the sense of free will. We've been through it a lot in these forums in recent years. In language and logic, no free will pretty much wins I think. Yet sitting here it still seems not to, in poetry land, wonder and expansion, stillness, potential, dharma and love, etc.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28631752 - 01/23/24 06:43 AM (4 days, 12 hours ago) |
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I'm probably more on board with an anti-free will lady (determinism), which seems to be what she's about. I didn't click the link above.
Buddhism takes a middle way with determinism. 'We' don't change things because there's no doer that stands apart from the doing. Still, things change.
When an itch arises, we scratch. We don't choose to scratch or not to scratch, unless, other conditions make that choice for us. Like doing sitting meditation, we might not scratch. But that's not a 'choice'. It's the interaction between multiple conditions inhibiting the scratch reflex.
Another example, when we're asleep we fart. When awake and in polite company, we might not. But it's the context (conditions) determining the choice. Not a separate unchanging self that lives in our heads somehow apart from those conditions.
The illusion of free will is so ingrained though that I felt like I had tourett's the first time I broke through the body/mind dichotomy. Like, my body was moving itself. Over time, I started to trust that 'someone else' wasn't moving 'my body' around. That it was just my body moving itself around when 'I' got out of the way.
That breakthrough was on vaped DMT coming down off LSD. I stretched, but it didn't feel like me stretching. I danced, but it didn't feel like me dancing. It felt like I had turned 'control' over to the DMT elves and that they were doing it 'for me'. There was no alternate dimension. Just, right here, right now. In my living room. Music pumping and my body dancing, like dancing was one long stretch that I was no more in control of than a yawn I couldn't fight.
Now, I cultivate that sense of flow with my body. And the division between tree frog's mind and tree frog's body has become more permeable. And I don't second guess myself nearly as often. Still learning though.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28631859 - 01/23/24 08:36 AM (4 days, 10 hours ago) |
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How beautiful it is to see and read others stories and opinions, it just shows how unique each is, following their own individual paths.
Yo syncro, nicely written! To add to all that I'd like to write, that no matter how you get to where you're at, once arrived that's it, there's nothing else, every second, every action, this whole existence, is actually that. There's no beginning or end, nothing that's done, nothing that's reached, nothing that's attained, that wasn't there already.
This also reminds me of another thread, in which was discussed, what came first, the student or the teacher. There's also another thread on free will floating around.
Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
So without any spiritual practices whatsoever, no explanation being given beforehand, it will happen to somebody regardless.
It's just the nature of the mind.
Probably our relation to nature and the entheogens that made this possible in the first place since we do have all the appropriate receptors for all kinds of bioactive compounds.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632029 - 01/23/24 11:02 AM (4 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Streaming in, and, streaming out.
I find I do that, especially in busy phases with the world, I run back and touch the Self as it were, then run away again.
Nb4 before people correct me and say you can never not touch it, so what I mean is going into a different place within, altered experience of meditative bent that reveals that which is not so evident in the normal waking state. And I agree they should be integrated making "the inner like the outer."
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28632044 - 01/23/24 11:19 AM (4 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Have you read much Dogen?
Your comment reminded me of this.
Quote:
To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad dharmas is delusion. That myriad dharmas come forth and illuminate the self is enlightenment.
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-genjo-koan/
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/23/24 11:20 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28632090 - 01/23/24 12:16 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago) |
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It kind of blends in, but yes. Maybe not much but have read Dogen. Effective quote.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28632129 - 01/23/24 01:01 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
I was expecting something along these lines. So from one of my favourite books with regards to non dualism, no Vedanta or Buddhism this time, however it's forms part of both as well.
For the sake of the non dualist/conceptual side argument, and for educational purposes.
Who doesn't love the deeply beautiful flowing wordplay of Sufi mystics? 
Cecilia Twinch; Awḥad Al-dīn Balyānī - Know Yourself: An Explanation of the Oneness of Being;
Quote:
Because of this, the Prophet, God bless him and give him peace, said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He also said, I knew my Lord through my Lord. What the Prophet pointed out by that, is that you are not you but you are Him and there is no you. It is not that He enters into you or that you enter into Him, or that He comes out of you or that you come out of Him. That does not mean that you have being and you are qualified by this or that attribute. What is meant is that you never were and never will be, whether through yourself or through Him or in Him or with Him. You have neither ceased to be nor are you existent. You are Him and He is you, without any of these imperfections. If you know your existence in this way, then you know God, and if not, then not.
Most of those who claim to know God make the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of existence and on the passing away of that passing away. That is clearly an error and misconception. The knowledge of God does not require the passing away of existence or the passing away of that passing away because things have no existence and what does not exist cannot pass away. Passing away implies the prior existence of the thing that passes away. If you know yourself without existing and passing away, then you know God, and if not, then not.
By making the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of your existence and the passing away of that passing away, there is an affirmation of something other than God. The Prophet said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He did not say, Whoever annihilates their self, knows their Lord.
Your being is nothing and whatever is nothing cannot be placed in relationship to anything else, whether it is capable of passing away or not and whether it is existent or nonexistent. The Prophet alluded to the fact that you are nonexistent now as you were nonexistent before creation, because now is eternity-without-beginning and now is eternity-without-end and now is timelessness. God is the very being of eternity-withoutbeginning, eternity-without-end and timelessness even though in reality there is no eternity-without-beginning, eternity-without-end or timelessness. If it were otherwise, He would not be alone, without any associate. However, it is necessary for Him to be alone without any associate because any associate would exist through itself, and not through the being of God. Then that associate would not need God and would therefore be a second Lord, which is impossible. God has no associate, equal or like.
Whoever sees anything with God, whether coming out of Him or within Him, but dependent on Him by virtue of His lordship, has also made that thing an associate even though that associate depends on Him by virtue of His lordship. Whoever allows that there could be anything with God whether subsisting by itself or through Him, whether in a state of having passed away or the passing away of passing away - is far from breathing the scent of self-knowledge.
Because whoever accepts that there could be any being other than Him, yet subsisting through Him and in Him, then passing away in successive stages of passing away and passing away of passing away - which is polytheism upon polytheism and not knowledge of the self at all - is a polytheist [who believes in many gods] and does not know God or themselves.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28632165 - 01/23/24 01:59 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago) |
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I've been reading a bit of systems sciences as well as reading some of Bhikkhu Analayo's stuff regarding signs, name and form and the arising of consciousness, etc. and I think I'd put it like this.
There's form, the material universe. Which can be described as interdependent and embedded processes.
There's name, the way we turn the above processes into signs or symbols that the mind can grasp easily. Not just language but the literal sense impression, tree. The way a tree hits you on all five aggregates. If you grow entheogens, cop is another sign that maybe better demonstrates what I mean by how it hits you.
Consciousness co-arises with name and form.
The error, I think, as in, where the sense of the doer arises, is in the naming. We make semi-permanent concepts around processes. Turning process into object.
The Buddha didn't say things don't exist. He said things are impermanent (process) and not self (interdependent, embedded, systemness).
Personally, I think once people get a taste of freedom and well-being, rather from entheogens or the dharma, it's hard to turn away from the path. Sometimes I resent both my practice and my psychedelics. But it's the way I sometimes resent having to breathe when I want to smoke cigarettes or hold my breath for long periods of time. Eventually, breathing always wins.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28632183 - 01/23/24 02:35 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago) |
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I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.
And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.
It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632262 - 01/23/24 03:57 PM (4 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Beautiful Sufi thing. Later I thought of the nature of the namaha in mantra which means 'honor to' but also 'not me', so, God or essence, not me, which that God feller was so driving.
Here's a standard I considered in whether one 'needs' practices, improvement, or not (including entheogens if chosen...) 
In Vedanta again we have the all described as satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So bliss is foundational, one with existence, one with consciousness. It is not some extra thing we seek but it is realized.
Asking ourselves if we have self-knowledge, we can say, do I exist, am I conscious? These are easy. Then is asked, do I know bliss, am I in it?
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632847 - 01/24/24 05:16 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago) |
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To further clarify my previous post, and to avoid some misconceptions/misunderstandings, I'll add some additional info on this, and why there's no "you" "cultivating" anything in the end from the non dual/conceptual viewpoint, I'm using sources I have easily available at the moment, don't really have time to dig deep, hopefully it'll get the point across in a clear manner anyway. Lets start with a modern day Canadian Theravada master and how it's explained to a layperson:
Ven. Yuttadhammo;
Quote:
In Theravada Buddhism we recognize two levels of truth; conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca). Conventional truth relies on a spatio-temporal paradigm, in which there exist people, places, and things. It is the level on which "you" and "I" exist, and it is the level on which a "person" becomes "enlightened". None of this has anything to do with the characteristic of non-self, which works on the level of ultimate truth. Ultimate truth relies on an experiential paradigm, in which there exists only the momentary experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, or thinking.
So, the answer to "who becomes enlightened?" is "a being becomes enlightened." As to how that can be reconciled with the teaching on non-self, there is really no conflict, since non-self describes a characteristic of ultimate reality, at which level concepts like "being" or "enlightened" have no place.
Then let's check a ancient Vedanta master and scholar:
Gaudapada's Karika on the Mandukya Upanishad - 2-32;
Quote:
The world never really emerged, nor will it undergo dissolution.
There's really no one who's bound, no one seeking enlightenment, and no one who becomes enlightened.
This is the highest truth.
Lets check another source, a ancient Zen master:
Keizan Jokin;
Quote:
It should be clear to all that the Buddhas and patriarchs have never 'gained' satori. It is equally true that no ignorant person has ever 'gone' astray. Whether awakened or not, one is free. In the awakening of the Bodhi-mind there is neither beginning nor end; while in this mind there is no scale of worth: Buddha and sentient man are as one, being freely and unconditionally just as they are.
And another just in case, a ancient Theravada master and scholar:
Buddhaghosa - Path of Purification - Visuddhimagga - XVI. 90;
Quote:
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.
And just to make it clear what the (no/non) self within Buddhism is:
Nāgārjuna’s Treatise on the Middle Way (rtsa shes/dbu ma’i bstan bcos, madhyamakashāstra, XXVII.27);
Quote:
When it is taken that there is no self Except the appropriated [aggregates], The appropriated [aggregates] themselves are the self. If so, your self is non-existent.
Chandrakīrti’s Supplement (VI.120ab);
Quote:
There is no self other than the aggregates because, Apart from the aggregates, its conception does not exist.
What then are the Five Aggregates? -Form is defined as that which is formable. -Sensation is defined as that which is felt in experience. -Perception is defined as the apprehension of attributes in objects. -Conditioning factors are defined as compound processes. -Consciousness is defined as that which cognizes objects. Further info here.
This should also make it clear exactly what the (no/non) self is within Buddhism, and that it's obviously not a nihilistic viewpoint or concept, but that it sounds awfully familiar to chapter 1 from the Kena Upanishad.
So then what, if there's no "me" or "you" to speak of ultimately anyway, what exactly am I and are we then?
Adi Shankara - Nirvana Shatakam;
Quote:
I am not any aspect of the mind like the intellect, the ego or the memory, I am not the organs of hearing, tasting, smelling or seeing, I am not the space, nor the earth, nor fire, nor air, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am not the Vital Life Energy (Prana), nor the Five Vital Airs (manifestations of Prana), I am not the seven essential ingredients nor the 5 sheaths of the body, I am not any of the body parts, like the mouth, the hands, the feet, etc., I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
There is no hatred nor passion in me, no greed nor delusion, There is no pride, nor jealousy in me, I am not identified with my duty, wealth, lust or liberation, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am not virtue nor vice, not pleasure or pain, I need no mantras, no pilgrimage, no scriptures or rituals, I am not the experience, not the object of experience, not even the one who experiences, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)....
I am not bound by death and its fear, not by caste or creed, I have no father, nor mother, or even birth, I am not a relative, nor a friend, nor a teacher nor a student, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
I am devoid of duality, my form is formlessness, I am omnipresent, I exist everywhere, pervading all senses, I am neither attached, neither free nor limited, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...
Wish I had some more time to check in my sources, because I'm not really satisfied and I know there's a text explaining this even better, ah well, it is what it is.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 2
#28633005 - 01/24/24 08:10 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.
And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.
It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.
This sounds right to me.
I've had such experiences multiple times with entheogens but it's much easier to mentally dismiss.
I had one meditation experience where I was doing dry insight work on the sense of self. Tracking them down, investigating it until it dissolved as not self. Moving on to the next place it arose. For a moment there was a gap. Just sense impressions flowing without a center. Meditative 'ego death'.
I've gone back and forth on if that was stream entry. Either way it was impossible to unsee and very hard to replicate with dry insight work.
I can get to boundless awareness now pretty easy using annapanasati. And generally hold myself more gently and take myself less seriously.
But I was a huge mess when I started practicing. And now I'm a big mess that can at least laugh at himself and show himself some compassion. So, that's quite an improvement. Rather I'm selfing or not.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633012 - 01/24/24 08:17 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago) |
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This also all reminds me somewhat of the story of Huineng.
Quote:
Only Shenxiu wrote a poem, anonymously on the wall in the middle of the night.[6] It stated:[7]
身是菩提樹, The body is a Bodhi tree, 心如明鏡臺。 The mind a standing mirror bright. 時時勤拂拭, At all times polish it diligently, 勿使惹塵埃。 And let no dust alight.
After having read this poem aloud to him, Hui-neng asked an officer to write another gatha on the wall for him, next to Shenxiu's, which stated:[8]
菩提本無樹, Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree; 明鏡亦非臺。 The bright mirror is also not a stand. 本來無一物, Fundamentally there is not a single thing — 何處惹塵埃。 Where could any dust be attracted?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633022 - 01/24/24 08:30 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago) |
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"I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633098 - 01/24/24 09:38 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: "I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"

Well I'm pretty sure there's a text floating about somewhere saying it is space/spacious so no worries
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633129 - 01/24/24 10:12 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago) |
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That with Longchenpa, space as enlightened intent, stuck with me. Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633161 - 01/24/24 10:43 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago) |
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I'm just getting into Longchenpa but also find a lot of resonance there.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 2
#28633178 - 01/24/24 11:03 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Longchenpa
Quote:
tree frog said: Longchenpa
A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:
I like the way she reads
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28633231 - 01/24/24 12:08 PM (3 days, 7 hours ago) |
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That's where I first heard him. I ordered a translation and commentary called maya yoga but haven't gotten into it yet.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 1
#28633262 - 01/24/24 12:29 PM (3 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Just read the below again and wanted to post, but see you guys already discussing Dzogchen. That's a perfect example indeed! I can highly recommend Longchenpa The Seven Treasuries book series translated by Richard Barron. It's as if Longchenpa speaks to you and explains everything step by step in all detail. I love it!
Karl Brunnhölzl - A Lullaby to Awaken the Heart: The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra and Its Tibetan Commentaries - The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra for Recitation;
Quote:
This is from the nineteenth chapter in the Tantra That Teaches the Great Perfection as Samantabhadra's Unobstructed Awakened Mind, which teaches that through making this powerful aspiration prayer, all sentient beings cannot help but awaken.
HO!
Everything in samsara and nirvana that can possibly appear has a single ground, two paths, and two results-- the miraculous displays of awareness and unawareness. Through the aspiration prayer of Samantabhadra, may all awaken in a fully perfect manner in the palace of the dharmadhatu.
The ground of all is unconditioned-- the self-arising, inexpressible, vast spaciousness without the names "samsara" or "nirvana." The awareness of just this is buddhahood; unaware, sentient beings wander in samsara. May all beings of the three realms be aware of the reality of the inexpressible ground.
Quote:
syncro said: Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
Muju - Shaseki-shu (Collection of Stone and Sand) - 101. Buddha's Zen;
Quote:
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
Quote:
Freedom said: A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:
I like the way she reads
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi
One of my favorite channels on YouTube! Also check out her other playlists! She's very eclectic!
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633370 - 01/24/24 01:54 PM (3 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Is that the same channel you recommended to me a while back? It was where I heard the space intent quote and posted it in the quotes thread.
Quote:
spinvis said:
Quote:
syncro said: Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
Muju - Shaseki-shu (Collection of Stone and Sand) - 101. Buddha's Zen;
Quote:
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
I was trying to do a Diamond Sutra dialogue but glad you didn't reply in kind because I would have had to cheat and look at it to continue I think.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28633389 - 01/24/24 02:09 PM (3 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Yes that's the same channel. Awesome stuff.
Haha
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28633432 - 01/24/24 02:55 PM (3 days, 4 hours ago) |
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A few excerpts from the Seven Treasuries. Dzogchen is very similar to for example Chan and Zen.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:
In summary, one comes to a decisive experience of the resolution of phenomena as a supreme and unnameable state:
Within the vast expanse—unnameable and free of elaboration— one comes to a decisive experience of the phenomena of the world of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana. Within the vast expanse—the unborn simultaneity of awareness and emptiness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of one’s own self-knowing awareness. Within the vast expanse—which has nothing to do with the recognition or nonrecognition of awareness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of awakened mind. Within the vast expanse—with no transition or change throughout the three times— one comes to a decisive experience concerning timelessly and totally empty phenomena.
All possible phenomena of samsara and nirvana arise within the scope of awareness, timelessly free of elaboration, and it is ultimately within that awareness that one comes to a decisive experience of these phenomena.
The Great Victory Banner That Never Falls states:
Quote:
There is no change, only ongoing abiding. This is like space—limitations are evened out— and it is not something that relies on anything else.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:
You come to the decisive experience that does not rely on the key points of skillful means and sublime knowing:
To hold that one cannot realize the inexpressible without relying on specific means to characterize it is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as inseparability from the ultimate makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.
Lower spiritual approaches hold that one cannot perceive the ultimate meaning of mind itself without relying on their respective means methods such as those involving the subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu or the two accumulations. In this case, what makes perfect sense in the ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in all its nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of awareness even for an instant, to say that it is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression.
. . .
You come to a decisive experience that is beyond imagination, transcending what is boundless:
Although great perfection is timeless and infinite, without fixed depth or extent, to claim that it is "unfathomable" is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as a boundless, unique state makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.
Followers of lower spiritual approaches-and even some who follow the Categories of Mind and Expanse-hold that because the ultimate essence, this great perfection, has no center or limit, no fixed depth or extent, it is some boundless void state, which they call "beyond the scope of awareness." Here, on the other hand, unique, unobstructed awareness is revealed in all its nakedness, and so does not lie within the scope of ordinary mind or consciousness or any frame of reference. To perceive it within the scope of one's individual self-knowing awareness is to realize it through the key point of distinguishing between ordinary mind and timeless awareness.
. . .
You come to the decisive experience of confusion as a supreme state beyond labels:
This timelessly awakened awareness that entails no object does not wander in samsara, for it is beyond all basis for confusion. No one at all is confused, for there is no context for confusion. Everything lies within the scope of the basic space of phenomena, a single lucid expanse. With no time frame, this spaciousness is equal to space itself. Samsara is primordially pure, a timeless and spontaneously present state of utter relaxation.
Consider the fact that while dreams do not stray from the context of sleep, sleep does not stray from the context of awareness and awareness in turn does not stray from the context of the basic space of phenomena. If you analyze and examine this, you see that no one has ever experienced falling into samsara. Samsara itself is already and forever pure, for it is by nature clearly apparent without truly existing-the very essence of what a dream is, manifest yet without an independent nature. These expressions of emptiness are furthermore pure in dharmakaya, which is without underlying basis or foundation. So the causes of confusion, confusion itself, perceptions based on confusion, and the one ex· periencing confusion have never known existence. One has not been confused in the past, does not experience confusion in the present, and cannot possibly be confused in the future, because there is already and forever a total purity as the very essence of space, which is without underlying basis.
The Great Garuda states:
Quote:
There is no name for, let alone the possibility of, confusion or nonrecognition for anyone. Therefore, since nothing has ever been freed, freeing later on is a fallacy.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:
You come to the decisive experience of the nonduality of samsara and nirvana:
One does not enter a state of freedom or attain nirvana. The unchanging vast expanse-samsara and nirvana have never known existence. Here there is no frame of reference for renunciation or attainment, hope or fear, but rather a supremely spacious expanse that is the primordially enlightened ground of being. All things are mere labels, for in actuality they are beyond characterization or expression. Having decisively experienced that samsara is not confusion and nirvana is not freedom, let no one make any effort! Let no one try to meddle with or alter this!
That is to say, given that self-knowing awareness is timelessly empty and pure like space, samsara is pure in that bondage does not exist and nirvana is totally pure in that freedom does not exist. Since self-know-ing awareness is beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence, you come to a decision that it entails no effort or achievement, no hope or fear.
. . .
You come to the decisive experience of freedom from limitation as a supremely spacious expanse:
Awareness, with no breadth or depth, is not subject to restrictions or extremes, so give up any frame of reference. Awareness, involving no plans or actions, no corning or going, entails no time frame or antidote, so drop reification and effort. If there is a deliberate frame of reference, it is a cause of bondage. Do not rely on any fixed construct whatsoever-let go in evenness!
You should understand that, in essence, awareness is not subject to restrictions or extremes, involves no time frame, no renunciation or antidotes, no plans or actions, no coming or going, no view, meditation, conduct, or fruition, no question of what it is or is not, and no effort or achievement. It transcends the effort and achievement involved in the ten attributes. It is a supremely spacious expanse, free of limitation and all-pervasive, yet it has never existed as anything whatsoever.
The All-Creating Monarch states:
Quote:
The uncontrived genuine state is the true nature of everything. There is no buddhahood apart from this nature. To use the term "buddhahood" is simply to use an arbitrary designation. This true nature requires nothing other than itself-natural mind. Natural mind, uncontrived, is defined as dharmakaya. In being uncontrived, it is timelessly unborn, so in the ultimate sense of its being unborn, there is nothing to seek or achieve. That which requires no action will not be accomplished by attempts to seek or achieve it.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28634097 - 01/25/24 07:32 AM (2 days, 11 hours ago) |
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If awareness runs around in rajas, random activity, or is in tamas, darkness or inertia, does it know itself? When there is some tathata juice, it is recognized as not being in those states, or is an agent of their dissipation.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28634202 - 01/25/24 09:20 AM (2 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: If awareness runs around in rajas, random activity, or is in tamas, darkness or inertia, does it know itself?
Funny you ask this, because this is actually one of the subjects within the Seven Treasuries. The answer in short is yes, but let me quickly check if I can find the chapter.
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28634274 - 01/25/24 10:09 AM (2 days, 9 hours ago) |
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So this is from the first chapter. Later it is elaborated on extensively as well.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 1 The Adornment of Basic Space;
Quote:
First it can be demonstrated that since samsara and nirvana do not stray from basic space, all phenomena are without transition or change within the context of supreme perfection, which is equal to space. To this end, it can be shown that although what arises as samsara and nirvana does so naturally within the scope of awareness-the supreme spontaneous presence of the three kayas-it does not stray from spontaneously present basic space:
Within the expanse of spontaneous presence is the ground for all that arises. Empty in essence, continuous by nature, it has never existed as anything whatsoever, yet arises as anything at all. Within the expanse of the three kayas, although samsara and nirvana arise naturally, they do not stray from basic space-such is the blissful realm that is the true nature of phenomena.
Thus, given that awareness is pure by nature, its essence as emptiness is dharmakaya, its nature as lucidity is sambhogakaya, and the way in which its innate responsiveness arises is nirmanakaya. These three are timelessly and spontaneously present without having to be sought. This great, undiminishing treasure is the utterly lucid mandala that abides as the ground of being. Even as anything at all arises within that context-be it awareness's own manifestations as perceived purely by buddhas or as perceived impurely by ordinary beings-it is only the display of basic space as the true nature of phenomena. Nothing else arises, just as nothing you dream about, be it good or bad, goes beyond the context of sleep. Naturally Arising Awareness states:
Due to the sun of awareness rising within the realm of emptiness, the five unchanging kayas arise directly from the mandala of the great, undiminishing treasure. They present a nondual display within a nonconceptual state. On the level of truth, the five mind-body aggregates, without being deliberately structured, are revealed as a magical display of appearances, however they manifest.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
The three kayas are subsumed within me, the all-creating one. All phenomena, however they manifest, have three uncontrived aspects-nature, essence, and responsiveness. I reveal these three kayas to be my suchness.
Therefore, it can be shown that the universe of appearances and possibilities, which manifests as samsara and nirvana, is the magical expression of basic space:
Mind itself is a vast expanse, the realm of unchanging space. Its indeterminate display is the expanse of the magical expression of its responsiveness. Everything is the adornment of basic space and nothing else. Outwardly and inwardly, things proliferating and resolving are the dynamic energy of awakened mind. Because this is nothing whatsoever yet arises as anything at all, it is a marvelous and magical expression, amazing and superb.
In the spacelike context of one's self-knowing awareness, this display of myriad phenomena-this animate and inanimate universe that seems to endure-is revealed to be amazing and superb, since it arises timelessly as a continuous magical expression within an unborn state. Naturally Arising Awareness states:
Awareness, difficult for anyone to realize, is subtle, hard to comprehend, and seen by no one. It cannot be reified, but is equally present everywhere as the expanse of naturally occurring well-being. It arises as the display of samsara and nirvana within a continuous context.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
All phenomena are awakened mind, and to use a metaphor-the universal metaphor-their nature is like space, which is also the ultimate meaning of awakened mind. Space, air, water, earth, and fire-these five are the superb manifest aspect of buddhahood within awakened mind. The manifestations of the three planes of conditioned existence, the five paths, and the six classes of beings are also the manifest aspect of buddhahood, which is not affected by the consequences of karma. The three realms are timelessly the form, speech, and mind of enlightenment. And so, just as there is nothing in the entire universe-the universe of all appearances and possibilities-that does not abide within the realm of space, so too the enormous scope of the vast expanse of awakened mind is such that buddhas, ordinary beings, and the entire universe are present therein.
The way in which the display arises within the expanse of awakened mind can be explained in detail:
Throughout the entire universe, all beings and all that manifests as form are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened form. What is audible, all sounds and voices without exception, as many as there may be, are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened speech. All consciousness and all stirring and proliferation of thoughts, as well as the inconceivable range of nonconceptual states, are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle of enlightened mind.
Within this scope of awareness, all the sensory appearances that manifest as the universe of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana, arise naturally as awareness's own manifestations, their very essence being nothing other than that of a dream, their nature that of the moon's reflection in water. All manifest forms are the mandala, or display, of enlightened form as an aspect of naturally occurring timeless awareness. All sounds and voices are the mandala of enlightened speech. Ordinary consciousness and the vast range of nonconceptual timeless awareness arise naturally as nothing more than the display of the supreme mandala of enlightened mind. Not even afflictive emotional patterns, which manifest due to the six sense faculties and their attendant objects being invested with identity, stray from the context of this single mandala of naturally occurring timeless awareness. The Tantra Without Letters states:
Everything that occurs-perceptions based on confusion-is my mind. Everything that abides-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened mind. Everything that manifests-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened form. Everything that is audible-perceptions based on confusion-is my enlightened speech.
And The All-Creating Monarch states:
Ah! The all-creating monarch, teacher of teachers, arrays the heart essence as the mandala of enlightened form. However phenomena appear and remain, they are all arrayed within the realm of the unborn basic space of phenomena. Moreover, because there is no acceptance or rejection with regard to the ultimate meaning of this heart essence, I, the all-creating one, have also arrayed them. Ah! The all-creating monarch, teacher of teachers, arrays the heart essence as the mandala of enlightened speech. However phenomena are audible and endure, they are all arrayed through words as enlightened speech within the realm of unborn basic space.
Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 11:34 AM)
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634477 - 01/25/24 12:53 PM (2 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics. Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work. Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.
Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?
The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself in the typical sense.
That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.
A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it). But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.
I experience it like the event horizon of a black hole.
Conceptual questions like is it aware of itself don't cross the threshold. I think Nagarjuna pointed this out to me with his being/non-being, coming/going dichotomies.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 01:50 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 1
#28634533 - 01/25/24 01:44 PM (2 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
tree frog said: Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics. Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work. Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.
Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?
The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself.
That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.
A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it). But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.
My reflections anyway after eating a small handful of dried Bisporus today and doing a lot of energy work 'in the dark'.
And of course, carrying this conversation with me into all of that.
Your story reminded me somewhat of the following:
Ronald David Laing;
Quote:
Before one goes through the gate one may not be aware there is a gate One may think there is a gate to go through and look a long time for it without finding it One may find it and it may not open If it opens one may be through it As one goes through it one sees that the gate one went through was the self that went through it no one went through a gate there was no gate to go through no one ever found a gate no one ever realized there was never a gate
Thanks for sharing your experiences and story! Hopefully the following answers your question.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:
To reveal the key point, all phenomena are first shown to have the same source:
Next, the nature of oneness is revealed. Awareness—oneness—is the ground of all phenomena. Although there is the appearance of multiplicity, to say that there is no wavering from oneness is to say that naturally occurring timeless awareness is the single source. Although fire and water manifest separately from a single gem under specific circumstances, their source—the pure gem—is the same. Similarly, although both samsara and nirvana arise from oneness, self-knowing awareness, their source—ultimate awakened mind—is the same. There is simply the illusion of difference based on whether or not awareness is recognized.
Fire or water comes from a single gem because of the specific properties of the sunlight or moonlight shining on it. Similarly, there are different manifestations: samsara, due to nonrecognition of the very essence of awareness, and nirvana, due to recognition. Although they are the display, or the arising mode, of a single awareness, in their essence they neither separate nor waver from it.
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634617 - 01/25/24 02:58 PM (2 days, 4 hours ago) |
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I see.
All phenomena are shown to have the same source (stream entry).
Samsara is forgetting this. Nirvana is the awareness of this.
Interesting that I found the source by digging in the dark. There was a warmth and a profound stillness. And a sense of immensity.
The sign that arises for me is like a black hole. An immense inky blackness with an event horizon. So I never did get the light metaphors. But I have attachments to the sign light and had to abandon it a long time ago.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 03:00 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] 4
#28634641 - 01/25/24 03:18 PM (2 days, 3 hours ago) |
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This one might give away the blind ass' name:
KOAN:
Yun Men imparted some words saying, "Everyone has a light; when you look at it, you don't see it and it's dark and dim. What is everybody's light?"
He himself answered on their behalf, "The kitchen pantry and the main gate." He also said, "A good thing isn't as good as nothing.”
POEM:
"Spontaneously shining, bathed in solitary light
It is an open secret
Flowers fall, the tree has no shadow
Look! Who does not see?
Seeing, not seeing
Ride the OX backward and enter the Buddha Hall"
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tree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] 2
#28634697 - 01/25/24 04:19 PM (2 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Yup, that did it.
The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately
conveyed from west to east.
Among human beings are wise ones and fools,
But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.
The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary
streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different;
Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.
The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.
The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.
Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.
Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.
Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality
Like leaves that come from the same root.
The words high and low are used relatively.
Within light there is darkness, do not be against the darkness. (nothingness/absolute);
Within darkness there is light, do not be against the light. (material/relative).
Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before
and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value
and is related to everything else in function and position.
Things exist as real as how the lid and box fits.
Truth corresponds like the sharp arrow piercing (through things).
Reading words you should grasp where it’s coming from. Do not come up with your own rules.
If you can not comprehend the way, on a far journey how would you know the road.
Progress is not about far or near, delusion can block (you) as firmly as the mountains and rivers.
I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:
Do not waste your time by night or day.
-------------------- Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise. Jesus, Sweets, listen. Hear it? It's a love song. For whom? You are loved. ~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 2
#28634733 - 01/25/24 05:09 PM (2 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Two more excerpts that are related, and reminded me of other approaches.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - SPONTANEOUSLY PRESENT AWARENESS;
Quote:
Even for those called "ordinary beings," there is nothing other than the context of awareness. Thus, since awareness itself is such that it cannot be separated into samsara and nirvana, there is no need for beings to exert themselves or try to achieve something else. The Perfect Dynamic Energy of the Lion states:
For ordinary beings and buddhas, awareness is not different.
And Naturally Arising Awareness states:
An ordinary being's awareness is true buddhahood.
It can be shown that awareness does not waver and is beyond effort:
Within the essence of being-spontaneous and uniform, unwavering and beyond deliberation-lies the spacious expanse of the ground of being, not created yet ensuring all that has ultimate meaning.
Dharmakaya is spontaneously present as the essence of awareness, and so it abides as this uncreated essence, ensuring all that has ultimate meaning; it constitutes timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous. This can be shown to be the ground of being as the basic space of phenomena, free of limitation. The Reverberation of Sound states:
Timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous, was ineffable in the past and will be ineffable in the future, for it is primordially ineffable. Right now, it is beyond the realm of the imagination. Free of limitation, its very nature is emptiness. Beyond words, surpassing ordinary consciousness, and essentially empty, that nature is not in any way divisible and so entails no manifestation of responsiveness in actions. Due to the third, manifest aspect of timeless awareness, knowledge deriving from conceptual consciousness is misconstrued, leading to a state of confusion. But it has no limited frame of reference. It is ineffable, and within its marvelous display the fruition state of all buddhas is discovered. Inside and out, everything is the basic space of phenomena, which has no manifest form whatsoever.
The first part reminded me of Shankara, commentary from Swami Tadatmananda.
Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:
Enlightened yogis see the entire world in themselves and see everything as non-separate from atma, with the eye of knowledge.
Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.
Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - RESTING IN UNCONTRIVED CONDUCT;
Quote:
Another pivotal point is that afflictive emotions are free in their own place:
Thus, all desirable, undesirable, and neutral mental states, in which the three poisons arise as a display due to dynamic energy, occur within basic space, arising within the context of that space. Since they occur only within basic space, not straying from it in the least, without trying to anticipate or manipulate them in any way, it is crucial to identify basic space itself, for as soon as you rest in that context, they will subside naturally, vanish naturally, and be freed naturally.
Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place. This is similar to a pack load falling just where it is when the pin holding the restraining knot is pulled out. If you do not understand this, you will not be able to abandon afflictive emotions even if you try, for they accompany you as naturally as your shadow does your body. You will not be able to refine them away even if you try, for what attempts the refining is no different from what is to be refined; this is like being unable to make a crystal more transparent than it already is. Your emotions will not change even if you try to change them, for mind cannot change mind, just as a piece of turquoise cannot change its color. You will not be able to still them by letting thern become calm naturally, for they are none other than the thinking process involved in letting them go. They cannot be freed with antidotes, for that would be like wanting to make water clearer yet stirring it with a stick; antidotes themselves are just as much something to be abandoned as they are something used to abandon something else. Afflictive emotions in and of themselves are not your true nature-thinking that they are is no different from the thinking of a common fool, which cannot take you beyond samsara. The Conjunction of Sun and Moon states:
"Are these afflictive emotions abandoned? Are they refined away? Are they transformed? Are they allowed to become calm naturally? Are they tamed by antidotes that are specific to each one? Does one let them play themselves out as they will? Are they in themselves one's true nature? Or are they naturally freed by themselves? O Teacher, I pray that you tell me."
Then Vajradhara issued this proclamation: "Ah! Listen, great sage! Listen! These are the words I have spoken: These emotions dwell in the mindstreams of all ordinary beings. They bind one to samsara. If supreme bliss itself is obscured, they have not been eliminated. If they are not realized in their suchness, they occur as naturally as the shadow that follows a yogin's body, and so they cannot be abandoned even if one tries to abandon them. Similarly, they cannot be refined away by one's attempts to do so. Nor can they be changed by one's attempts to transform them. One can only realize their unchanging heart essence; one cannot refine away or change them, for they are like an outcropping of crystal or a piece of turquoise. Yogins examine them to experience their innately pure nature. Similarly, they are not a state of quiescence. One can understand them only with profound insight through direct perception; one cannot destroy them, for they are like Sumeru, the most majestic mountain. They cannot be freed with antidotes. Without understanding the natural purity that is unsought, it is as though one were stirring water while wanting to clarify it; it will not become clearer and clearer. These emotions, moreover, are not themselves one's true nature. Without an understanding of the relaxed way in which awareness's own manifestations are perceived, one's perceptions are like those of a common fool. One's obsessions have not been eliminated."
That is to say, although efforts are made in other spiritual approaches, they are incapable of purifying afflictive emotions. In the ati approach, emotions are purified within basic space without being renounced, through the key point of realizing that self-knowing awareness is unobstructed. In this approach, freedom comes about through the effortful cultivation of the visions of togal, which manifest in a natural state of rest. Alternatively, freedom comes about effortlessly through the realization of trekcho, the bare state of naturally free awareness. However, afflictive emotions are not freed by bare awareness-they themselves are freed by themselves, like a snake that has tied itself into a knot. This crucial point-that afflictive emotions are freed in and of themselves as they arise-comes down to not forgetting to realize bare awareness; and so, though it seems that awareness frees afflictive emotions, this is not actually the case. The same tantra states:
"Ah! Listen again, 0 sage! People have two kinds of minds-there are those who are involved in effort and those who are not. Those involved in effort rest in their natural state. The full measure of familiarity with visionary experience ensures that the pure visions of timeless awareness arise naturally everywhere, within and without. These circumstances ensure that afflictive emotions do not occur. Or as much as they do occur, they are freed in their own place as one rests in the natural state. Therefore, these are the visions of a yogin. The situation for those who are not involved in effort is as follows: Naturally freed in and of themselves, afflictive emotions are themselves naturally free just as they are. Like iron cutting iron or stone breaking stone, they are their own greatest antidote. Anyone with such familiarity will, having realized natural great perfection, discover its implications by resting without seeking anything. Supreme bliss unfolds without being cultivated in meditation. One directly experiences it as one's very nature. Though someone who encounters it may have committed harmful actions with immediate consequences, that person will be freed by becoming familiar with it. Of this there is no doubt-I swear it!"
Very Zen, and reminds me of one of the books I'm reading atm; 'John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination', I'll post an excerpt later.
Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 05:17 PM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? *DELETED* [Re: spinvis]
#28634894 - 01/25/24 07:23 PM (1 day, 23 hours ago) |
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Post deleted by syncro
Reason for deletion: forget it
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 3
#28635033 - 01/25/24 09:24 PM (1 day, 21 hours ago) |
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Forget what I said - I was arguing effort-no-effort, but the picture shines. Pranams.
Edited by syncro (01/25/24 10:19 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635223 - 01/26/24 04:45 AM (1 day, 14 hours ago) |
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What follows are excerpts, from the book I previously mentioned. The first chapter/question I posted in another thread previously, however I included it here again, to avoid confusion.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 2;
Quote:
Q: What method must we practise in order to attain deliverance? A: It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination. Q: What is a sudden Illumination? A: Sudden means ridding yourselves of deluded thoughts instantaneously. Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained. Q: From where do we start this practice? A: You must start from the very root. Q: And what is that? A: MIND is the root. Q: How can this be known? A: The Lankavatara Sutra says: ‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’ The Vimalakirti Sutra says: ‘Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha-Land.’ The Sutra of the Doctrine Bequeathed by the Buddha says: ‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’ In another sutra it says: ‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’ The Sutra of the Names of the Buddha states: ‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’ Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root. If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root. Unless you can penetrate to this truth, all your efforts will be vain; for, while you are still seeking something from forms external to yourselves, you will never attain. The Dhyanaparamita Sutra says: ‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’ Q: By what means is the root-practice to be performed? A: Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished by dhyana (ch‘an) and samadhi (ting). The Dhyana-paramita Sutra says: ‘Dhyana and samadhi are essential to the search for the sacred knowledge of the Buddhas; for, without these, the thoughts remain in tumult and the roots of goodness suffer damage.’ Q: Please describe dhyana and samadhi. A: When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind. By samadhi, you withdraw your minds from their surroundings, thereby making them impervious to the eight winds, that is to say, impervious to gain and loss, calumny and eulogy, praise and blame, sorrow and joy. By concentrating in this way, even ordinary people may enter the state of Buddhahood. How can that be so? The Sutra of the Bodhisattva-Precepts says: ‘All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’ Other names for this are deliverance, gaining the further shore, transcending the six states of mortal being, o’erleaping the three worlds, or becoming a mighty Bodhisattva, an omnipotent Sage, a Conqueror!
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 3;
Quote:
Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell? A: It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell. Q: What is this non-dwelling? A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever. Q: And what is the meaning of that? A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed upon good or evil, being or non-being, inside or outside or somewhere between the two, void or non-void, concentration or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain to it are said to have non-dwelling minds—in other words, they have Buddha-Minds! Q: What does mind resemble? A: Mind has no colour, such as green or yellow, red or white; it is not long or short; it does not vanish or appear; it is free from purity and impurity alike; and its duration is eternal. It is utter stillness. Such, then, is the form and shape of our original mind, which is also our original body—the Buddhakaya! Q: By what means do this body or mind perceive? Can they perceive with the eyes, ears, nose, sense of touch and consciousness? A: No, there are not several means of perception like that. Q: Then, what sort of perception is involved, since it is unlike any of those already mentioned? A: It is perception by means of your own nature (svabhava). How so? Because your own nature being essentially pure and utterly still, its immaterial and motionless ‘substance’ is capable of this perception. Q: Yet, since that pure ‘substance’ cannot be found, where does such perception come from? A: We may liken it to a bright mirror which, though it contains no forms, can nevertheless ‘perceive’ all forms. Why? Just because it is free from mental activity. If you students of the Way had minds unstained, they would not give rise to falsehood and their attachment to the subjective ego and to objective externals would vanish; then purity would arise of itself and you would thereby be capable of such perception. The Dharmapada Sitra says: ‘To establish ourselves amid perfect voidness in a single flash is excellent wisdom indeed!’
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 7;
Quote:
Q: When there are sounds, hearing occurs. When there are no sounds, does hearing persist or not? A: It does. Q: When there are sounds, it follows that we hear them, but how can hearing take place during the absence of sound? A: We are now talking of that hearing which is independent of there being any sound or not. How can that be? The nature of hearing being eternal, we continue to hear whether sounds are present or not. Q: If that is so, who or what is the hearer? A: It is your own nature which hears and it is the inner cognizer who knows. Q: As to the gateway of sudden Illumination, what are its doctrine, its aim, its substance and its function? A: To refrain from thinking (nien) is its doctrine; not to allow wrong thoughts to arise is its aim; purity is its substance and wisdom is its function. Q: We have said that its doctrine is to refrain from thinking, but we have not yet examined the meaning of this term. What is it that we must refrain from thinking about? A: It means that we must refrain from wrong thinking, but not from right thinking. Q: What are wrong thinking and right thinking? A: Thinking in terms of being and non-being is called wrong thinking, while not thinking in those terms is called right thinking. Similarly, thinking in terms of good and evil is wrong; not to think so is right thinking. The same applies to all the other categories of opposites—sorrow and joy, beginning and end, acceptance and rejection, dislikes and likes, aversion and love, all of which are called wrong thinking, while to abstain from thinking in those categories is called right thinking. Q: Please define right thinking (more positively). A: It means thinking solely of Bodhi (Enlightenment). Q: Is Bodhi something tangible? A: It is not. Q: But how can we think solely of Bodhi if it is intangible? A: It is as though Bodhi were a mere name applied to something which, in fact, is intangible, something which never has been nor ever will be attained. Being intangible, it cannot be thought about, and it is just this not thinking about it which is called rightly thinking of Bodhi as something not to be thought about—for this implies that your mind dwells upon nothing whatsoever. The term ‘not to be thought about’ is like the various kinds of not-thinking mentioned earlier, all of which are but names convenient for use in certain circumstances—all are of the one substance in which no differences or diversities exist. Simply to be conscious of mind as resting upon nothing whatsoever is to be without thought; and whoever reaches this state is naturally delivered.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 10;
Quote:
Q: When you said that wisdom is the function, what did you mean by wisdom? A: The knowledge that by realizing the voidness of all opposites deliverance is assured and that, without this realization, you will never gain deliverance. This is what we call wisdom or knowing wrong from right. Another name for it is knowing the function of the ‘substance’. Concerning the unreality of opposites, it is the wisdom inherent in the ‘substance’ which makes it known that to realize their voidness means liberation and that there can be no more doubt about it. This is what we mean by function. In speaking thus of the unreality of opposites, we refer to the non-existence of relativities such as ‘is’ and ‘is not’, good and evil, love and aversion, and so on. Q: By what means can the gateway of our school be entered? A: By means of the danaparamita. Q: According to the Buddha, the Bodhisattva-Path comprises six paramitas. Why, then, have you mentioned only the one? Please explain why this one alone provides a sufficient means for us to enter. A: Deluded people fail to understand that the other five all proceed from the danaparamita and that by its practice all the others are fulfilled. Q: Why is it called the danaparamita? A: Dana means relinquishment. Q: Relinquishment of what? A: Relinquishment of the dualism of opposites. Q: Which means? A: It means total relinquishment of ideas as to the dual nature of good and bad, being and non-being, love and aversion, void and non-void, concentration and distraction, pure and impure. By giving all of them up, we attain to a state in which all opposites are seen as void. The real practice of the danaparamita entails achieving this state without any thought of ‘Now I see that opposites are void’ or ‘Now I have relinquished all of them’. We may also call it the simultaneous cutting off of the myriad types of concurrent causes; for it is when these are cut off that the whole Dharma-Nature becomes void; and this voidness of the Dharma-Nature means the non-dwelling of the mind upon anything whatsoever. Once that state is achieved, not a single form can be discerned. Why? Because our self-nature is immaterial and does not contain a single thing (foreign to itself). That which contains no single thing is true Reality, the marvellous form of the Tathagata. It is said in the Diamond Sutra: ‘Those who relinquish all forms are called Buddhas (Enlightened Ones).’ . Q: However, the Buddha did speak of six paramitas, so why do you now say they can all be fulfilled in that one? Please give your reason for this. A: The Sutra of the Questions of Brahma says: ‘Jala-vidya, the Elder, spoke unto Brahma and said: ‘‘Bodhisattvas by relinquishing all defilements (klesa) may be said to have fulfilled the danaparamita, also known as total relinquishment; being beguiled by nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the silaparamita, also known as observing the precepts; being hurt by nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the ksantiparamita, also known as exercising forbearance; clinging to nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the viryaparamita, also known as exercising zeal; dwelling on nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the dhyanaparamita, also known as practising dhyana and samadhi; speaking lightly of nothing, they may be said to have fulfilled the prajfiaparamita, also known as exercising wisdom. Together, they are named the six methods.” Now I am going to speak about those six methods in a way which means precisely the same—the first entails relinquishment; the second, no arising (of perception, sensation, etc., etc., etc.); the third, no thinking; the fourth, remaining apart from forms; the fifth, non-abiding (of the mind); and the sixth, no indulgence in light speech. We give different names to these six methods only for convenience in dealing with passing needs; for, when we come to the marvellous principle involved in them all, we find no differences at all. So you have only to understand that, by a single act of relinquishment, EVERYTHING is relinquished; and that no arising means no arising of anything whatsoever. Those who have lost their way have no intuitive understanding of this; that is why they speak of the methods as though they differed from one another. Fools bogged down in a multiplicity of methods revolve endlessly from life-span to life-span. I exhort you students to practise the way of relinquishment and nothing else, for it brings to perfection not only the other five paramitas but also myriads of dharmas (methods).
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 12;
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Q; When the mind rests in a state of purity, will that not give rise to some attachment to purity? A: If, on reaching the state of purity, you refrain from thinking ‘now my mind is resting in purity’, there will be no such attachment. Q: When the mind rests in a state of void, will that not entail some attachment to void? A: If you think of your mind as resting in a state of void, then there will be such an attachment. Q: When the mind reaches the state of not dwelling upon anything, and continues in that state, will there not be some attachment to its not dwelling upon anything? A: So long as your mind is fixed solely on void, there is nothing to which you can attach yourself. If you want to understand the non-dwelling mind very clearly, while you are actually sitting in meditation, you must be cognizant only of the mind and not permit yourself to make judgements—that is, you must avoid evaluations in terms of good, evil or anything else. Whatever is past is past, so do not sit in judgement upon it; for, when minding about the past ceases of itself, it can be said that there is no longer any past. Whatever is in the future is not here yet, so do not direct your hopes and longings towards it; for, when minding about the future ceases of itself, it can be said that there is no future. Whatever is present is now at hand; just be conscious of your non-attachment to everything—non-attachment in the sense of not allowing any love or aversion for anything to enter your mind; for, when minding the present ceases of itself, we may say that there is no present. When there is no clinging to any of those three periods, they may be said not to exist. Should your mind wander away, do not follow it, whereupon your wandering mind will stop wandering of its own accord. Should your mind desire to linger somewhere, do not follow it and do not dwell there, whereupon your mind’s questing for a dwelling-place will cease of its own accord. Thereby, you will come to possess a non-dwelling mind—a mind which remains in the state of non-dwelling. If you are fully aware in yourself of a non-dwelling mind, you will discover that there is just the fact of dwelling, with nothing to dwell upon or not to dwell upon. This full awareness in yourself of a mind dwelling upon nothing is known as having a clear perception of your own mind or, in other words, as having a clear perception of your own nature. A mind which dwells upon nothing is the Buddha-Mind, the mind of one already delivered, Bodhi-Mind, Uncreate Mind; it is also called realization that the nature of all appearances is unreal. It is this which the sutras call ‘patient realisation of the Uncreate’. If you have not realized it yet, you must strive and strive, you must increase your exertions. Then, when your efforts are crowned with success, you will have attained to understanding from within yourself—an understanding stemming from a mind that abides nowhere, by which we mean a mind free from delusion and reality alike. A mind disturbed by love and aversion is deluded; a mind free from both of them is real; and a mind thus freed reaches the state in which opposites are seen as void, whereby freedom and deliverance are obtained.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - 24;
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Q: As to the Buddhas and the Dharma, which of them anteceded the other? If the Dharma came first, how can there have been a Buddha to preach it; but, if a Buddha came first, then what doctrine led to his attainment? A: The Buddhas anteceded the Dharma in one sense, but came after it in another. Q: How is that possible? A: If you mean the Quiescent Dharma, then the Dharma anteceded the Buddhas; but, if you mean the written or spoken Dharma, then it was the Buddhas who came first and the Dharma which followed them. How so? Because every one of the Buddhas attained Buddhahood by means of the Quiescent Dharma—in that sense, the Dharma anteceded them. The ‘Teacher of all the Buddhas’ mentioned in the sutra is the Dharma; it was not until they had attained Buddhahood that they first embarked upon their detailed exposition of the Twelve Divisions of the Sutras for the purpose of converting sentient beings. When these sentient beings follow and practise the Dharma preached by previous Buddhas, thereby attaining Buddhahood, that is also a case of the Dharma anteceding the Buddha.
John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination - PART TWO - 11;
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Upon the same day, as the assembly of monks did not break up at the usual time, the Master said: ‘Why do you not disperse? This poor monk has already sat face to face with you. Just go and rest. What doubts do you still entertain?!’ Do not misuse your minds and waste your energy. If something is still bothering you, hurry up and ask whatever you wish.’ Then Fa Yuan, one of the monks present, asked: “What are Buddha, Dharma and Sangha; what are the Three Jewels in One Substance? We beg you, Master, to explain.’ M: ‘Mind is the Buddha and it is needless to use this Buddha to seek the Buddha. Mind is the Dharma and it is needless to use this Dharma to seek the Dharma. Buddha and Dharma are not separate entities and their together-ness forms the Sangha. Such is the meaning of Three Jewels in One Substance. A sutra says: “Mind, Buddha and sentient beings—there is no difference between any of them. When your body, speech and mind are purified, we say a Buddha has appeared in the world. When these three become impure, we say a Buddha has been extinguished.” For example, when you are angry you are not joyous, and when you are joyous you are not angry; yet, in both cases, there is only the one mind which is not of two substances. Fundamental wisdom is self-existent; when the passionless (anasraya—that which is outside the stream of trans-migration) appears, it is like a snake becoming a dragon without changing its scaly skin. Likewise, when a sentient being turns his mind towards Buddhahood, he does not change his physiognomy. Our Nature, which is intrinsically pure, does not rely on any practice in order to achieve its own state. Only the arrogant claim that there are practice and realization. The real void is without obstruction and its function is, under all circumstances, inexhaustible. It is without beginning or end. A man of high spirituality is capable of sudden Illumination, whereon its function will be (seen to be) unsurpassable—this is Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi (Unexcelled Enlightenment). Mind has neither form nor shape; it is the subtle Sambhogakaya. That which is formless is the Dharmakaya of Reality. That of which the nature and phenomenal expression are void is the Boundless Immaterial Body. That which is adorned with a myriad modes of salvation is the Dharmakaya of Merit, which is the fundamental power responsible for the conversion of sentient beings; it (mind) is named according to how it appears and its wisdom is inexhaustible—hence it is called the Inexhaustible Treasury. As the progenitor of all phenomena (dharmas), it is called the Primal Dharma Treasury. As the container of all knowledge, it is called the Wisdom Treasury. As the Suchness to which all phenomena ultimately return, it is called the Tathagata Treasury. The Diamond Sutra says: ““Tathagata means the Suchness of all dharmas.”’ Another sutra says: “‘Of all the dharmas in the universe coming into existence and fading out of existence, there is not one which does not return to the Suchness.”’’
Edited by spinvis (01/26/24 08:09 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635444 - 01/26/24 09:54 AM (1 day, 9 hours ago) |
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"must first purify their own minds"
It is sufficient, but I notice it being the bodies, which is why I like the 'kaya', body vocab, and it is the way my mind works with it, that everything (around dukkha and moksha) is bodies. The trikaya fits well with it, in my way of seeing.
With the image of the likeness of Longchenpa, I was filled with joy, and in the chest, diaphragm, belly was opened, released into that.
Though making without (wrong) thought is sufficient and everything, in the yogas there are emphases on purifying the bodies with subtle elements. Bodies, elements, are mind, and mind is body.
The body takes the form of the practice, or objects, the dharmakaya, anandakaya. I like to see mahamudra as body. It is the same as the form of the mantra which becomes it.
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28635479 - 01/26/24 10:21 AM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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Buddhist texts can be confusing because sometimes 'mind' refers to all inclusive awareness (which includes the body) and sometimes to thought
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 2
#28635491 - 01/26/24 10:33 AM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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Haha maybe we should write our own, in modern terminology. Problem solved.
Was typing a reply and saw Freedom responded already. Thanks!
Idries Shah - The Sufis;
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There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28635501 - 01/26/24 10:52 AM (1 day, 8 hours ago) |
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And as many interpretations of these terms as there are souls. I vote take it as you like. Some maintain say Dharmakaya as body of teachings, yet it is also disagreed with as literal. It reminds me of the thought that everyone can write their own version of Ramayana which will join it.
Edited by syncro (01/26/24 10:53 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635522 - 01/26/24 11:20 AM (1 day, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.
There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 3
#28635728 - 01/26/24 03:19 PM (1 day, 3 hours ago) |
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syncro said:
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There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.
I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.
There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.
There are many body/energy purification practices in Buddhism. Even the basic meditation posture opens the body. Breathe meditation is purifying and gets more and more subtle.
There are also things like Tsa Lung and Tummo practices and many more
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28635945 - 01/26/24 05:35 PM (1 day, 1 hour ago) |
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For Zen, the following book: 'Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy' is highly recommend reading material within this regard.
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Freedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 3
#28635964 - 01/26/24 05:48 PM (1 day, 1 hour ago) |
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The practice of true reality is simply to sit serenely in silent introspection. When you have fathomed this you cannot be turned around by external causes and conditions. This empty, wide open mind is subtly and correctly illuminating. Spacious and content, without confusion from inner thoughts of grasping, effectively overcome habitual behavior and realize the self that is not possessed by emotions. You must be broad-minded, whole without relying on others. Such upright independent spirit can begin not to pursue degrading situations. Here you can rest and become clean, pure, and lucid. Bright and penetrating, you can immediately return, accord, and respond to deal with events. Everything is unhindered, clouds gracefully floating up to the peaks, the moonlight glitteringly flowing down mountain streams. The entire place is brightly illumined and spiritually transformed, totally unobstructed and clearly manifesting responsive interaction like box and lid or arrowpoints [meeting) .? Continuing, cultivate and nourish yourself to enact maturity and achieve stability. If you accord everywhere with thorough clarity and cut off sharp corners without dependence on doctrines, like the white bull or wildcat [helping to arouse wonder] , you can be called a complete person. So we hear that this is how one on the way of non-mind acts, but before realizing non-mind we still have great hardship.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 4
#28636520 - 01/27/24 07:26 AM (11 hours, 43 minutes ago) |
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"Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place."
I like the use of the terms "afflictive emotions" & "resting imperturbably"
My default mode is to feel perturbed
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spinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28636593 - 01/27/24 08:34 AM (10 hours, 36 minutes ago) |
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Some excerpts with examples from Zen. The author approaches it from a scientific viewpoint, which makes the material a bit dry, very thorough and clear with scientific research incorporated and backing it up.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER ONE Orientations
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Subsequently, by stilling the activity of our mind, a state is reached in which time, space, and causation, which constitute the framework of consciousness, drop away. We call this condition “body and mind fallen off.” In ordinary mental activity the cerebral cortex takes the major role, but in this state, apparently, it is hardly active at all. “Body and mind fallen off” may seem to be nothing but a condition of mere being, but this mere being is accompanied by a remarkable mental power, which we may characterize as a condition of extreme wakefulness. To those who have not experienced it, this description may seem strange, yet the condition really does occur in samadhi. At the time, however, we are not aware of it, because, as we shall explain in chapter 10, there is no reflecting activity of consciousness, and it is thus hard to describe. However, if we were to try to describe it, it would be as an extraordinary mental stillness. In this stillness, or emptiness, the source of all kinds of activity is latent. It is this state that we call pure existence. This, perhaps, is the most simplified form of human existence. If you catch hold of this state of pure existence, and then come back into the actual world of conscious activity, you will find that Being itself appears transformed. Because of the possibility of this transformation, Being is said to be “veiled in darkness” to the eyes of those who have not experienced pure existence. When mature in the practice of zazen, Being is seen with one’s own eyes. Or, as it is said in the sutras, “The Tathagata sees Buddha Nature with his naked eyes.”
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER THREE The Physiology of Attention
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This inhibition can be sustained as long as the breath is kept stopped or almost stopped. It is true that your eyes are reflecting the images of outside objects clearly, but “perception” does not occur. No thinking of the hill, no idea of the building or the picture, no mental process concerning things inside or outside your mind will appear. Your eyes will simply reflect the images of outside objects as a mirror reflects them. This simplest mental action may be called “pure sensation.” William James, in his classic study of psychology, depicts this pure sensation as follows: “Sensation distinguished from Perception.—It is impossible rigorously to define a sensation; and in the actual life of consciousness sensations, popularly so called, and perceptions merge into each other by insensible degrees. All we can say is that what we mean by sensations are FIRST things in the way of consciousness. They are the immediate results upon consciousness of nerve-currents as they enter the brain, and before they have awakened any suggestions or associations with past experience. But it is obvious that such immediate sensations can only be realized in the earliest days of life. They are all but impossible to adults with memories and stores of associations acquired. Prior to all impressions on sense-organs, the brain is plunged in deep sleep and consciousness is practically non-existent. Even the first weeks after birth are passed in almost unbroken sleep by human infants. It takes a strong message from the sense-organs to break this slumber. In a new-born brain this gives rise to an absolutely pure sensation. But the experience leaves its ‘unimaginable touch’ on the matter of the convolutions, and the next impression which a sense-organ transmits produces a cerebral reaction in which the awakened vestige of the last impression plays its part. Another sort of feeling and a higher grade of cognition are the consequence. ‘Ideas’ about the object mingle with awareness of its mere sensible presence, we name it, class it, compare it, utter propositions concerning it, and the complication of the possible consciousness which an incoming current may arouse, goes on increasing to the end of life. In general, this higher consciousness about things is called Perception, the mere inarticulate feeling of their presence is Sensation, so far as we have it at all. To some degree we seem able to lapse into this inarticulate feeling at moments when our attention is entirely dispersed.”
. . .
In the experiment of one-minute zazen described above, you stopped or almost stopped breathing. The purpose of that was to create tension in the respiratory muscles and so bring about the effect referred to. The thought-controlling power of the wakefulness center can be regarded as a mental or spiritual power. However, the power is sustained by the stimulation coming from the tension in the respiratory muscles of the abdomen, which do not themselves think, of course, but by their straining permit that power to be generated. So we may regard these muscles—or the tanden in general—as the root of spiritual power. The physiology textbook tells us, it is true, that the second cycle is formed between the wakefulness center and the peripheral muscles in general. But we suggest that among the muscles the respiratory ones alone can provide a strong enough stimulus to control thought for any length of time. When you strike a hammer blow, or leap out of a window, no thought occurs in your mind. The momentary tension of the skeletal muscles here presumably generates a strong impulse that is transmitted to the wakefulness center, which it occupies, with consequent inhibition of thoughts. But this inhibition is momentary. On the other hand, the tension of the respiratory muscles of the abdomen can be maintained in such a way as to take possession of the wakefulness center for a much longer time.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER FOUR Breathing in Zazen
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The major muscles of inspiration are the diaphragm, the external intercostals, and a number of small muscles in the neck. The inspiratory muscles cause the pleural cavity to enlarge in two ways. First, if the lower abdomen is allowed to fill out or inflate, this facilitates the downward movement of the diaphragm, which in turn pulls the bottom of the pleural cavity downward. This is called abdominal respiration. Secondly, the external intercostal muscles and the muscles of the neck combine to lift the front of the thoracic cage, directing the ribs farther forward than previously and thus increasing the depth of the pleural cavity. This may be called thoracic inspiration. In zazen it is exclusively the former method that is used. This is because the thoracic method elevates the thoracic cage and displaces tension upward, thereby partly depriving the lower abdomen of its internal pressure, while the abdominal method pulls the cavity downward and increases the pressure in the lower abdomen. As we have already emphasized, in zazen, tension and pressure must be kept in the lower part of the abdomen as much as possible, as this brings about both physical and mental stability. The major muscles of expiration are the abdominals and, to a lesser extent, the internal intercostals. The abdominal muscles cause expiration in two ways. First, they pull downward on the chest cage and reduce its thickness. Secondly, they force the abdominal contents upward against the diaphragm, reducing the length of the thoracic cage. The internal intercostals help in expiration to a small extent by pulling the ribs downward, which also reduces the depth of the thoracic cage. In zazen, we repeat, the thoracic cage is to be kept as still as possible. Inspiration is performed by inflating the lower abdomen, while expiration is performed by contracting the abdominal muscles. There is, however, an important difference between the method of expiration in normal breathing and in zazen. In normal abdominal respiration the abdominal muscles are simply contracted, which pushes the viscera upward, causing them to press on the diaphragm, which in turn expels air from the lungs. However, in zazen, the free contraction of the abdominal muscles and their upward pushing movement are opposed by the diaphragm. This produces bated breath.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER FIVE Counting and Following the Breath
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COUNTING THE BREATH It is usual to begin the practice of zazen by counting your breaths. There are three ways of doing this: (1) Count both inhalations and exhalations. When you inhale, count “one” inwardly; when you exhale, count “two,” and so on up to ten. Then return to one again and repeat the process. Perhaps at first it may be helpful to whisper the count inaudibly, or even audibly. Then, except for occasions when you feel the need for audible counting, concentrate on the counting inwardly, stressing your vocal cords but not making any sound. (2) Count your exhalations only, from one to ten, and repeat. Let the inhalations pass without counting them. (3) Count your inhalations only, letting the exhalations pass without counting them. Of these three, the first method is generally used for the initiation of beginners, the second is recognized as a more advanced step, and the third is somewhat difficult for a beginner but gives good training in inspiration.
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One final word on the topic of counting the breaths. If, after making good progress in zazen, you return to this practice once more, you will find that it leads to the development of an extraordinarily brilliant condition of consciousness. But this is not to be expected in the zazen of beginners. Therefore, the teacher is usually satisfied if his pupil can master just the elements of counting the breaths and will then pass him to another kind of practice. The pupil may suppose that he has finished with this sort of discipline and that he will not have to practice it again, but this is mistaken. Students practicing alone may also revert to counting the breaths from time to time, even though they have gone on to other kinds of exercises.
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Instructions for following the breath are very simple. Follow each inhalation and exhalation with concentrated attention. At the beginning of your exhalation, breathe out naturally, and then when you reach a point near the horizon of breathing, squeeze the respiratory muscles so as nearly to stop breathing. With the epiglottis open, the air remaining in the lungs will almost imperceptibly escape, little by little. At first this escape will be so slight that you may not notice it. But presently it will become noticeable, and as the exhalation goes below the horizon you will find that the air is being pushed out intermittently. If you regulate the escape of air in a methodical manner you will advance more effectively toward samadhi. The longer the exhalation, the sooner you will be there. However, a very long exhalation must necessarily be followed by short, rather quick respirations, to make good the oxygen deficiency that results. This more rapid respiration need not disturb samadhi, as long as you continue with abdominal breathing. However, if you find such an irregular method of breathing uncongenial, try shorter exhalations. These seem to be used by many Zen students.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER SIX Working on Mu
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THE BAMBOO METHOD OF EXHALATION I want to discuss here in detail a method of breathing that we have already touched upon, which to my mind is of great value in zazen and which, to my knowledge, is not described elsewhere in Zen literature. In practice, however, I believe many Zen students must have used this method without being aware of it. It has not been explicitly described before simply because nobody has previously taken the trouble to analyze in detail what he was doing. The method is to say, in one breath, “Mu . . . Mu . . . Mu . . .” or “Mu-u-u,” with intermittent or wavelike exhalation. We hit upon the name “bamboo method” for this type of exhalation, for just as a bamboo trunk has successive joints or nodes, so exhalation is stopped now and then for a little while, giving short pauses. The length of the intervals and exhalations may be decided according to the length of your breath. The possible variations are too diverse to be described here. I once foolishly tried to give much too detailed a procedure, going so far as to specify for how many seconds the breathing was to be stopped at each pause and how long the exhalations should be. This was a mistake. The method had developed as a result of long practice and thus came quite naturally to me, but to others who tried it such a rigid specification proved altogether too stiff and inflexible, and they found the method too troublesome to adopt. If you think of trying this method, do it as if you were pushing repeatedly at a closed door that will not open, saying, “Mu-u-u-u-uu.” Then in the course of time your own way of doing this will become more or less established. That method will itself no doubt undergo some modification as your training progresses, and eventually you will find that you have developed your own style. When we say “wavelike” this refers to a continuous but repeatedly stressed way of exhaling. “Intermittent,” on the other hand, implies rather long intervals between exhalations. When one’s samadhi becomes deeper, exhalation may seem almost stopped for a long while, with only an occasional faint escape of breath and almost imperceptible inhalation. Such variations of breathing appear spontaneously, according to the degree of development of one’s samadhi. With any of these patterns of breathing, however, we generally go down deep into the reserve volume. Why do we practice this kind of breathing? Once more, the answer is: (1) in order to make the tanden replete with power; and (2) to send repeated stimulation from the tanden to the wakefulness center of the brain, by which means, as we have already discussed (chapter 3), we inhibit the occurrence of thoughts and so bring about absolute samadhi. Consciousness is by nature constituted so as to be always thinking something, and if left to itself it starts daydreaming. These wandering thoughts are quite a natural thing, but one cannot get into samadhi if one’s mind is occupied with them. The bamboo method of exhaling is nothing more than a device for controlling wandering thoughts. Anyone who has practiced zazen will know how difficult it is to control wandering thoughts. We suggest that if you use the method just described you will find it somewhat easier to bring them under control.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER NINE Koans
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THE SOUND OF FIREWOOD TUMBLING DOWN A certain monk suddenly realized his Original Self when he heard the sound of a heap of firewood tumbling down. In the sound he heard all things collapse—delusive thoughts, the habitual way of consciousness—leaving pure existence exposed. But in fact, the collapse had occurred long ago in his absolute samadhi. The realization was only a matter of noticing this for the first time, as if the falling away had taken place just at the moment that he heard the sound of the wood crashing down. The pure existence that made its appearance following the collapse wore a universal aspect; at the same time, it was an event inside himself. On such an occasion one hears in the sound of the falling wood the noise of the universe collapsing. The monk heard the hills, valleys, woods, and everything go down into the infernal region with a tremendous roar. Many such experiences have been related by Zen students, and there are many examples in Zen literature. These are the stories of kensho. Kensho is an event in positive samadhi, in which consciousness is in touch with the outer world.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER TEN Three Nen-Actions and One-Eon Nen
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The impulse to theft, greed, anger, complaint—all make their appearance before one is aware of them. If the reflecting action of consciousness fails to appear and does not recognize them, they will pass unnoticed and sink into the depths of subconsciousness. However, a nen is an internal pressure of some kind, and if it is not consciously recognized it will remain in the subconscious, unresolved. In this way, some nen will undergo a kind of fermentation and perhaps cause harm to the mind, as we shall explain later. THE FIRST AND SECOND NEN Let us call the outward-looking action the first nen, and the reflecting action of consciousness the second nen. The first and the second nen come and go momentarily (Fig. 21), and when a serial process of thought is occurring the second nen will frequently arise to illuminate the preceding nen, and the two will intermix as if they were entangled with each other. This makes a person feel that, while thinking, he hears a voice within him that knows his thinking and gives advice to him. For instance, while roaring with anger, one may find another voice whispering in one’s ear, “Don’t get angry! You mustn’t lose yourself in a fit of rage!” This persuading voice is comparatively composed, but the first nen is bawling forth, and this is accompanied by an excitement of the entire body. All the nervous system, internal glands, even the circulation of the blood are thrown into a commotion. They are surging waves, like a mob demonstrating outside a public building, crying out, “Our patience is exhausted! It has gone beyond a question of gaining or sing.” Then the other voice will be quietly saying, “No, you should bear it to the best of your ability.” Of course, this is but one example. The first nen will often be quiet humor, the silence of the Himalayas, the mercy of Kannon, or the spiritual power of “silver mountains and iron cliffs.” THE THIRD NEN The second nen, which illuminates and reflects upon the immediately preceding nen, also does not know anything about itself. What will become aware of it is another reflecting action of consciousness that immediately follows in turn. This action is a further step in self-consciousness. It consolidates the earlier levels. We shall call it the third nen. This third nen will think, for example, “I know I noticed I had been thinking, ‘It’s fine today.’” Or it may say, “I know I was aware of my knowing that I noticed I had been thinking, ‘It’s fine today.’” For the sake of simplicity we may depict these nen as occurring in the first place in a linear progression, with groups of first, second, and third nen following sequentially (Fig. 22). In our example relating to the weather, we have first the observation, second the awareness of that observation, and third the acknowledgment of ourselves becoming aware of the observation. Subsequent acknowledgments may follow and are all in this context third nen, and thus the sequence becomes: first nen, second nen, third nen, third nen, third nen, and so on.
. . .
In our ordinary life, however, this one-eon nen is manifested, if deluded, as a deluded ego; if angry, as an angry ego; and so on. It is, in fact, no less than the first or the second or the third nen. What is required is the purification of these nen-thoughts, first through absolute samadhi, in which the habitual way of consciousness falls away, and then through positive samadhi—that is, through the socalled cultivation of Holy Buddhahood (see chapter 17)—in which a reconstruction of consciousness is carried out.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER TWELVE Laughter and Zen
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INTERNAL PRESSURE AND LAUGHTER The connection between laughter and Zen arises in this way. Zen is largely a matter of how to deal with one’s internal pressure. Laughter, too, is a means of liberating internal pressure. Internal pressure comes from nen. We have already discussed nen at some length in chapter 10, but some additional explanation may be helpful. Nen (or nen-thought) is a term with many meanings. It may mean a fragmentary thought or a flash of thought. We hear a crash behind us and react by looking back. This is a reflex movement in which, it is generally believed, there is no thought. But in fact, at the moment of looking back a certain action of the mind is stirring in us. Something that asks, “What is the matter?” makes us look around. An internal pressure is arising in our mind, and it is in fact this that makes us look back. Or, to take another example, there may be a flash of jealousy at another’s success, or secret delight at his failure, in spite of an inward reproach that follows immediately and may cause us to feel remorse. Such a fragment of thought that momentarily appears in our mind is called nen. Nen has another meaning. Suppose a mother is fighting against a tiger to protect her child. There is only one thought in her mind— protection. This is a kind of willpower and is called nen, or in this case, ichi-nen. Ichi means “one” and here implies a full-scale, wholly concentrated action of the mind. A murderer may be driven by the single thought that he must kill such and such a person. This concentrated, persistent intention is also called nen. Nen is also used to mean ordinary thought. Nen involves the idea of drive, but it is more than that, since it covers all actions of the human mind. Nen is necessarily accompanied by internal pressure because all actions of the mind have that feature. In any nen-thought —for instance, wanting something, grudging a stupid fellow his fine house and beautiful wife, hating a neighbor, loving or delighting in anything or anybody—a certain degree of internal pressure develops in our minds. This is the case even when we think, “It’s fine today.” We are tempted to accost someone, saying, “It’s fine today, isn’t it!” in order to discharge our internal pressure. The slightest nen-thought or idea that appears in our mind is thus accompanied by internal pressure, which has both physiological and psychological aspects. We say in our routine way, “Good morning.” “How do you do?” “Did Dorothea go to school?” “I don’t want scrambled eggs this morning, I’ll have fried eggs.” To examine this sort of conversation may seem silly. But Zen takes up the slightest action of the mind and makes a great matter of it. “Good morning” makes a Zen koan. How to dispose of momentary internal pressure is central to the whole question of Zen practice. Now, laughter is one of the great masterpieces of humanity. We invented it to dispose of internal pressure.
Katsuki Sekida - Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy - CHAPTER SEVENTEEN Stages in Zen Training
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IN THIS CHAPTER I want to discuss two classics of Zen literature: first the traditional series of pictures called “In Search of the Missing Ox,” and second the Five Ranks or Situations of Tozan.
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TOZAN’S FIVE RANKS In searching for the ox, we were mainly dealing with the process of attaining enlightenment. Tozan’s Five Ranks are concerned with matters after enlightenment: that is, with the cultivation of Holy Buddhahood. Certain Buddhist schools assert that there are fifty-two stages through which the enlightened person has to pass before he reaches the true maturity of the Buddha. However, Tozan’s Five Ranks are sufficient to enable us to grasp the essential points. Before commenting on them in detail, however, we must introduce and explain certain essential terms used in describing these ranks. When one attains kensho and the habitual way of consciousness falls off, there appears what is called daien-kyōchi; this may be translated as “the great perfect Mirror of Wisdom” (dai, great; en, round, which here means “rounded maturity” and hence “perfect”; kyō, mirror; chi, wisdom). Everyone is innately equipped with this Mirror of Wisdom. However, in most people it has long been veiled because of the activity of our topsy-turvy delusive thought. In absolute samadhi the veil is cleared away and the perfect mirror is allowed to appear. This condition constitutes Tozan’s First Rank. The Mirror of Wisdom, however, still remains in darkness in the absolute samadhi of the First Rank. This rank corresponds to the eighth stage of searching for the ox, illustrated by the circle, in which body and mind have fallen off.
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Let us put these matters in another way. At an early stage in the cultivation of Holy Buddhahood, you may often find yourself failing to behave well; you do not what you would wish to do but what you hate. You say, “It should not be so,” but to no avail. However, as you go on, you begin to lose these discriminating motivations and ultimately come to find equality in distinction. It is this state that constitutes Tozan’s Second Rank. We used the words “Sho” and “honbun” to characterize the First Rank, which we connect with the world of equality. The Second Rank relates to the world of differentiation and distinction, which in Zen terminology is called hen (periphery). The two words “Sho” and “Hen” have no exact equivalents in English, and we shall not try to translate them here. However, to suggest their meanings, we will list contrasting terms that can be associated with them; in each pair, the first term represents Sho and the second Hen: absolute, relative; equality, distinction; emptiness, form; absolute samadhi, positive samadhi; darkness, light; yin, yang; no-thought, thought; inward, outward; central, peripheral; reason, matter; reality, appearance. Here we have a series of concepts that are in opposition to each other. However, in actual life, we find that we simply exist. When we are in absolute samadhi, we are in absolute quietness. When we are in positive samadhi, we are in vigorous activity. There is only one stream of existence, the continuum of the present. However, when we take up philosophical speculation again, we are once more confronted by ideas of reality and appearance, absolute and relative, and so on. Then once again we return to the continuum of one single existence. Sho and Hen alternate, each retaining, so to speak, a vague memory of the other. Thus, two situations can be considered: “Hen in Sho” (Tozan’s First Rank) and “Sho in Hen” (Tozan’s Second Rank). To go on from there, we abolish entirely the dualistic idea of Sho and Hen—absolute and relative, and so on—and bring about a synthesis and integration of them. There then remains the Real in its true sense. That is to say, when you are in absolute samadhi, you are in absolute samadhi; when you are in positive samadhi, you are in positive samadhi. There is only one fact—that you exist. This returning to “existing,” with the resumption of the activity of consciousness, constitutes Tozan’s Third Rank, “Coming from Sho.”
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spinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 1
#28636599 - 01/27/24 08:35 AM (10 hours, 34 minutes ago) |
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Haha tell me about it! I'm diagnosed with PTSD. How great it is to make your biggest weakness your greatest strength!
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 1
#28636662 - 01/27/24 09:21 AM (9 hours, 48 minutes ago) |
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Re: perturbed
Everyone seems to agree in themselves, I do anyway, on the default waking state. I think I unconsciously do it on purpose, or it's fear, like drinking too much coffee on impulse, and expecting peace.
It reminds of a teacher saying we don't abide due to fear. For me, having the idea that I can now relatively more easily access that sattva, say, the avoidance is even more powerful or subtle, because confidence is there, but I'll choose my suffering instead because, well, the 10000 dharmas we keep with with our precious dukkha. Makes no sense and I don't know.
It's much about where I think I am in life, phases and obligations, financial, social. If I feel any hint of those, I tend to avoid, and stay in what, patterns of varying degrees of angst and habit.
Practices are ripe, but I leave them in the garage. Now I only talk about them. But they do come in snooze land too, fortunately. Insane though for me, to avoid the guru sadhana. A teacher said, when one is hungry, they will eat. It seems fine in that sense, but we only have so many days.
Before someones dismisses guru sadhana, today I found that Longchenpa himself was also very much about that. Not that I don't respect however people do their thing, but it goes to context around the non-effort. Do nothing, BUT, figuratively or otherwise, clean the temple, clean yourself, put on your robes and be there, quite distinct from junk food culture.
On the good side of stupidity, it is also a wonderful dance, or game of hide and seek, lila, whatever that is in us that seems to want to be in dukkha for the great bliss of return.
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