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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 587
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28632847 - 01/24/24 05:16 AM (4 days, 9 hours ago)

To further clarify my previous post, and to avoid some misconceptions/misunderstandings, I'll add some additional info on this, and why there's no "you" "cultivating" anything in the end from the non dual/conceptual viewpoint, I'm using sources I have easily available at the moment, don't really have time to dig deep, hopefully it'll get the point across in a clear manner anyway. Lets start with a modern day Canadian Theravada master and how it's explained to a layperson:

Ven. Yuttadhammo;
Quote:

In Theravada Buddhism we recognize two levels of truth; conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca). Conventional truth relies on a spatio-temporal paradigm, in which there exist people, places, and things. It is the level on which "you" and "I" exist, and it is the level on which a "person" becomes "enlightened". None of this has anything to do with the characteristic of non-self, which works on the level of ultimate truth. Ultimate truth relies on an experiential paradigm, in which there exists only the momentary experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, or thinking.

So, the answer to "who becomes enlightened?" is "a being becomes enlightened." As to how that can be reconciled with the teaching on non-self, there is really no conflict, since non-self describes a characteristic of ultimate reality, at which level concepts like "being" or "enlightened" have no place.



Then let's check a ancient Vedanta master and scholar:

Gaudapada's Karika on the Mandukya Upanishad - 2-32;
Quote:

The world never really emerged,
nor will it undergo dissolution.

There's really no one who's bound,
no one seeking enlightenment,
and no one who becomes enlightened.

This is the highest truth.



Lets check another source, a ancient Zen master:

Keizan Jokin;
Quote:

It should be clear to all that the Buddhas and patriarchs have never 'gained' satori. It is equally true that no ignorant person has ever 'gone' astray. Whether awakened or not, one is free. In the awakening of the Bodhi-mind there is neither beginning nor end; while in this mind there is no scale of worth: Buddha and sentient man are as one, being freely and unconditionally just as they are.



And another just in case, a ancient Theravada master and scholar:

Buddhaghosa - Path of Purification - Visuddhimagga - XVI. 90;
Quote:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.



And just to make it clear what the (no/non) self within Buddhism is:

Nāgārjuna’s Treatise on the Middle Way (rtsa shes/dbu ma’i bstan bcos, madhyamakashāstra, XXVII.27);
Quote:

When it is taken that there is no self
Except the appropriated [aggregates],
The appropriated [aggregates] themselves are the self.
If so, your self is non-existent.



Chandrakīrti’s Supplement (VI.120ab);
Quote:

There is no self other than the aggregates because,
Apart from the aggregates, its conception does not exist.



What then are the Five Aggregates?
-Form is defined as that which is formable.
-Sensation is defined as that which is felt in experience.
-Perception is defined as the apprehension of attributes in objects.
-Conditioning factors are defined as compound processes.
-Consciousness is defined as that which cognizes objects.
Further info here.

This should also make it clear exactly what the (no/non) self is within Buddhism, and that it's obviously not a nihilistic viewpoint or concept, but that it sounds awfully familiar to chapter 1 from the Kena Upanishad.

So then what, if there's no "me" or "you" to speak of ultimately anyway, what exactly am I and are we then?

Adi Shankara - Nirvana Shatakam;
Quote:

I am not any aspect of the mind like the intellect, the ego or the memory, I am not the organs of hearing, tasting, smelling or seeing, I am not the space, nor the earth, nor fire, nor air, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...

I am not the Vital Life Energy (Prana), nor the Five Vital Airs (manifestations of Prana), I am not the seven essential ingredients nor the 5 sheaths of the body, I am not any of the body parts, like the mouth, the hands, the feet, etc., I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...

There is no hatred nor passion in me, no greed nor delusion, There is no pride, nor jealousy in me, I am not identified with my duty, wealth, lust or liberation, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...

I am not virtue nor vice, not pleasure or pain, I need no mantras, no pilgrimage, no scriptures or rituals, I am not the experience, not the object of experience, not even the one who experiences, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)....

I am not bound by death and its fear, not by caste or creed, I have no father, nor mother, or even birth, I am not a relative, nor a friend, nor a teacher nor a student, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...

I am devoid of duality, my form is formlessness, I am omnipresent, I exist everywhere, pervading all senses, I am neither attached, neither free nor limited, I am the form of consciousness and bliss, I am Shiva (that which is not)...



Wish I had some more time to check in my sources, because I'm not really satisfied and I know there's a text explaining this even better, ah well, it is what it is.

:jumpingfrog:


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28633005 - 01/24/24 08:10 AM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.

And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.

It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.




This sounds right to me.

I've had such experiences multiple times with entheogens but it's much easier to mentally dismiss.

I had one meditation experience where I was doing dry insight work on the sense of self.  Tracking them down, investigating it until it dissolved as not self.  Moving on to the next place it arose.  For a moment there was a gap.  Just sense impressions flowing without a center.  Meditative 'ego death'.

I've gone back and forth on if that was stream entry.  Either way it was impossible to unsee and very hard to replicate with dry insight work.

I can get to boundless awareness now pretty easy using annapanasati.  And generally hold myself more gently and take myself less seriously.

But I was a huge mess when I started practicing.  And now I'm a big mess that can at least laugh at himself and show himself some compassion.  So, that's quite an improvement.  Rather I'm selfing or not.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28633129 - 01/24/24 10:12 AM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

That with Longchenpa, space as enlightened intent, stuck with me. Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28633161 - 01/24/24 10:43 AM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

I'm just getting into Longchenpa but also find a lot of resonance there.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] * 2
    #28633178 - 01/24/24 11:03 AM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Longchenpa





Quote:

tree frog said:
Longchenpa






A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:

I like the way she reads


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28633231 - 01/24/24 12:08 PM (4 days, 2 hours ago)

That's where I first heard him.  I ordered a translation and commentary called maya yoga but haven't gotten into it yet.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 587
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28633432 - 01/24/24 02:55 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

A few excerpts from the Seven Treasuries. Dzogchen is very similar to for example Chan and Zen.

Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:

In summary, one comes to a decisive experience of the resolution of phenomena as a supreme and unnameable state:

Within the vast expanse—unnameable and free of elaboration— one comes to a decisive experience of the phenomena of the world of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana.
Within the vast expanse—the unborn simultaneity of awareness and emptiness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of one’s own self-knowing awareness.
Within the vast expanse—which has nothing to do with the recognition or nonrecognition of awareness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of awakened mind.
Within the vast expanse—with no transition or change throughout the three times— one comes to a decisive experience concerning timelessly and totally empty phenomena.

All possible phenomena of samsara and nirvana arise within the scope of awareness, timelessly free of elaboration, and it is ultimately within that awareness that one comes to a decisive experience of these phenomena.



The Great Victory Banner That Never Falls states:
Quote:

There is no change, only ongoing abiding.
This is like space—limitations are evened out— and it is not something that relies on anything else.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:

You come to the decisive experience that does not rely on the key points of skillful means and sublime knowing:

To hold that one cannot realize the inexpressible without relying on specific means to characterize it is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as inseparability from the ultimate makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.

Lower spiritual approaches hold that one cannot perceive the ultimate meaning of mind itself without relying on their respective means methods such as those involving the subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu or the two accumulations. In this case, what makes perfect sense in the ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in all its nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of awareness even for an instant, to say that it is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression.

. . .

You come to a decisive experience that is beyond imagination, transcending what is boundless:

Although great perfection is timeless and infinite, without fixed depth or extent, to claim that it is "unfathomable" is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as a boundless, unique state makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.

Followers of lower spiritual approaches-and even some who follow the Categories of Mind and Expanse-hold that because the ultimate essence, this great perfection, has no center or limit, no fixed depth or extent, it is some boundless void state, which they call "beyond the scope of awareness." Here, on the other hand, unique, unobstructed awareness is revealed in all its nakedness, and so does not lie within the scope of ordinary mind or consciousness or any frame of reference. To perceive it within the scope of one's individual self-knowing awareness is to realize it through the key point of distinguishing between ordinary mind and timeless awareness.

. . .

You come to the decisive experience of confusion as a supreme state beyond labels:

This timelessly awakened awareness that entails no object does not wander in samsara, for it is beyond all basis for confusion. No one at all is confused, for there is no context for confusion. Everything lies within the scope of the basic space of phenomena, a single lucid expanse. With no time frame, this spaciousness is equal to space itself. Samsara is primordially pure, a timeless and spontaneously present state of utter relaxation.

Consider the fact that while dreams do not stray from the context of sleep, sleep does not stray from the context of awareness and awareness in turn does not stray from the context of the basic space of phenomena. If you analyze and examine this, you see that no one has ever experienced falling into samsara. Samsara itself is already and forever pure, for it is by nature clearly apparent without truly existing-the very essence of what a dream is, manifest yet without an independent nature. These expressions of emptiness are furthermore pure in dharmakaya, which is without underlying basis or foundation. So the causes of confusion, confusion itself, perceptions based on confusion, and the one ex· periencing confusion have never known existence. One has not been confused in the past, does not experience confusion in the present, and cannot possibly be confused in the future, because there is already and forever a total purity as the very essence of space, which is without underlying basis.




The Great Garuda states:
Quote:

There is no name for, let alone the possibility of, confusion or nonrecognition for anyone. Therefore, since nothing has ever been freed, freeing later on is a fallacy.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:

You come to the decisive experience of the nonduality of samsara and nirvana:

One does not enter a state of freedom or attain nirvana. The unchanging vast expanse-samsara and nirvana have never known existence. Here there is no frame of reference for renunciation or attainment, hope or fear, but rather a supremely spacious expanse that is the primordially enlightened ground of being. All things are mere labels, for in actuality they are beyond characterization or expression. Having decisively experienced that samsara is not confusion and nirvana is not freedom, let no one make any effort! Let no one try to meddle with or alter this!

That is to say, given that self-knowing awareness is timelessly empty and pure like space, samsara is pure in that bondage does not exist and nirvana is totally pure in that freedom does not exist. Since self-know-ing awareness is beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence, you come to a decision that it entails no effort or achievement, no hope or fear.

. . .

You come to the decisive experience of freedom from limitation as a supremely spacious expanse:

Awareness, with no breadth or depth, is not subject to restrictions or extremes, so give up any frame of reference. Awareness, involving no plans or actions, no corning or going, entails no time frame or antidote, so drop reification and effort. If there is a deliberate frame of reference, it is a cause of bondage. Do not rely on any fixed construct whatsoever-let go in evenness!

You should understand that, in essence, awareness is not subject to restrictions or extremes, involves no time frame, no renunciation or antidotes, no plans or actions, no coming or going, no view, meditation, conduct, or fruition, no question of what it is or is not, and no effort or achievement. It transcends the effort and achievement involved in the ten attributes. It is a supremely spacious expanse, free of limitation and all-pervasive, yet it has never existed as anything whatsoever.



The All-Creating Monarch states:
Quote:

The uncontrived genuine state is the true nature of everything. There is no buddhahood apart from this nature. To use the term "buddhahood" is simply to use an arbitrary designation. This true nature requires nothing other than itself-natural mind. Natural mind, uncontrived, is defined as dharmakaya. In being uncontrived, it is timelessly unborn, so in the ultimate sense of its being unborn, there is nothing to seek or achieve. That which requires no action will not be accomplished by attempts to seek or achieve it.




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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28634477 - 01/25/24 12:53 PM (3 days, 1 hour ago)

Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics.  Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work.  Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.

Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?

The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself in the typical sense.

That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.

A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it).  But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.

I experience it like the event horizon of a black hole.

Conceptual questions like is it aware of itself don't cross the threshold.  I think Nagarjuna pointed this out to me with his being/non-being, coming/going dichotomies.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 01:50 PM)


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28634697 - 01/25/24 04:19 PM (2 days, 22 hours ago)

Yup, that did it.



    The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately

    conveyed from west to east.

    Among human beings are wise ones and fools,

    But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.

    The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary

    streams flow through the darkness.

    To be attached to things is illusion;

    To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.

    Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,

    and at the same time, independent.

    Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.

    Form makes the character and appearance different;

    Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.

    The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.

    The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.

    Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.

    Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.

    Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality

    Like leaves that come from the same root.

    The words high and low are used relatively.

    Within light there is darkness, do not be against the darkness. (nothingness/absolute);

    Within darkness there is light, do not be against the light. (material/relative).

    Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before

    and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value

    and is related to everything else in function and position.

    Things exist as real as how the lid and box fits.

    Truth corresponds like the sharp arrow piercing (through things).

    Reading words you should grasp where it’s coming from. Do not come up with your own rules.

    If you can not comprehend the way, on a far journey how would you know the road.

    Progress is not about far or near, delusion can block (you) as firmly as the mountains and rivers.

    I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:

    Do not waste your time by night or day.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 587
Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28634733 - 01/25/24 05:09 PM (2 days, 21 hours ago)

Two more excerpts that are related, and reminded me of other approaches.

Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - SPONTANEOUSLY PRESENT AWARENESS;
Quote:

Even for those called "ordinary beings," there is nothing other than the context of awareness. Thus, since awareness itself is such that it cannot be separated into samsara and nirvana, there is no need for beings to exert themselves or try to achieve something else. The Perfect Dynamic Energy of the Lion states: 

For ordinary beings and buddhas, awareness is not different. 

And Naturally Arising Awareness states: 

An ordinary being's awareness is true buddhahood. 

It can be shown that awareness does not waver and is beyond effort: 

Within the essence of being-spontaneous and uniform, unwavering and beyond deliberation-lies the spacious expanse of the ground of being, not created yet ensuring all that has ultimate meaning. 

Dharmakaya is spontaneously present as the essence of awareness, and so it abides as this uncreated essence, ensuring all that has ultimate meaning; it constitutes timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous. This can be shown to be the ground of being as the basic space of phenomena, free of limitation. The Reverberation of Sound states: 

Timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous, was ineffable in the past and will be ineffable in the future, for it is primordially ineffable. 
Right now, it is beyond the realm of the imagination. 
Free of limitation, its very nature is emptiness. 
Beyond words, surpassing ordinary consciousness, and essentially empty, that nature is not in any way divisible and so entails no manifestation of responsiveness in actions. 
Due to the third, manifest aspect of timeless awareness, knowledge deriving from conceptual consciousness is misconstrued, leading to a state of confusion.
But it has no limited frame of reference. 
It is ineffable, and within its marvelous display the fruition state of all buddhas is discovered.
Inside and out, everything is the basic space of phenomena, which has no manifest form whatsoever.




The first part reminded me of Shankara, commentary from Swami Tadatmananda.

Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:

Enlightened yogis see
the entire world in themselves
and see everything as non-separate from atma,
with the eye of knowledge.


Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - RESTING IN UNCONTRIVED CONDUCT;
Quote:

Another pivotal point is that afflictive emotions are free in their own place: 

Thus, all desirable, undesirable, and neutral mental states, in which the three poisons arise as a display due to dynamic energy, occur within basic space, arising within the context of that space.
Since they occur only within basic space, not straying from it in the least, without trying to anticipate or manipulate them in any way, it is crucial to identify basic space itself, for as soon as you rest in that context, they will subside naturally, vanish naturally, and be freed naturally.


Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place. This is similar to a pack load falling just where it is when the pin holding the restraining knot is pulled out.
If you do not understand this, you will not be able to abandon afflictive emotions even if you try, for they accompany you as naturally as your shadow does your body. You will not be able to refine them away even if you try, for what attempts the refining is no different from what is to be refined; this is like being unable to make a crystal more transparent than it already is. Your emotions will not change even if you try to change them, for mind cannot change mind, just as a piece of turquoise cannot change its color. You will not be able to still them by letting thern become calm naturally, for they are none other than the thinking process involved in letting them go. They cannot be freed with antidotes, for that would be like wanting to make water clearer yet stirring it with a stick; antidotes themselves are just as much something to be abandoned as they are something used to abandon something else. Afflictive emotions in and of themselves are not your true nature-thinking that they are is no different from the thinking of a common fool, which cannot take you beyond samsara. The Conjunction of Sun and Moon states: 

"Are these afflictive emotions abandoned? Are they refined away? Are they transformed? Are they allowed to become calm naturally? Are they tamed by antidotes that are specific to each one? Does one let them play themselves out as they will? Are they in themselves one's true nature? Or are they naturally freed by themselves? O Teacher, I pray that you tell me." 

Then Vajradhara issued this proclamation: 
"Ah! Listen, great sage! Listen! 
These are the words I have spoken: 
These emotions dwell in the mindstreams of all ordinary beings. 
They bind one to samsara. 
If supreme bliss itself is obscured, they have not been eliminated. 
If they are not realized in their suchness, they occur as naturally as the shadow that follows a yogin's body, and so they cannot be abandoned even if one tries to abandon them. 
Similarly, they cannot be refined away by one's attempts to do so. 
Nor can they be changed by one's attempts to transform them. 
One can only realize their unchanging heart essence; one cannot refine away or change them, for they are like an outcropping of crystal or a piece of turquoise. 
Yogins examine them to experience their innately pure nature. 
Similarly, they are not a state of quiescence. 
One can understand them only with profound insight through direct perception; one cannot destroy them, for they are like Sumeru, the most majestic mountain. 
They cannot be freed with antidotes. 
Without understanding the natural purity that is unsought, it is as though one were stirring water while wanting to clarify it; it will not become clearer and clearer. 
These emotions, moreover, are not themselves one's true nature. 
Without an understanding of the relaxed way in which awareness's own manifestations are perceived, one's perceptions are like those of a common fool. 
One's obsessions have not been eliminated."
 

That is to say, although efforts are made in other spiritual approaches, they are incapable of purifying afflictive emotions. In the ati approach, emotions are purified within basic space without being renounced, through the key point of realizing that self-knowing awareness is unobstructed. In this approach, freedom comes about through the effortful cultivation of the visions of togal, which manifest in a natural state of rest. Alternatively, freedom comes about effortlessly through the realization of trekcho, the bare state of naturally free awareness. However, afflictive emotions are not freed by bare awareness-they themselves are freed by themselves, like a snake that has tied itself into a knot. This crucial point-that afflictive emotions are freed in and of themselves as they arise-comes down to not forgetting to realize bare awareness; and so, though it seems that awareness frees afflictive emotions, this is not actually the case. The same tantra states: 

"Ah! Listen again, 0 sage! 
People have two kinds of minds-there are those who are involved in effort and those who are not. 
Those involved in effort rest in their natural state. 
The full measure of familiarity with visionary experience ensures that the pure visions of timeless awareness arise naturally everywhere, within and without. 
These circumstances ensure that afflictive emotions do not occur. 
Or as much as they do occur, they are freed in their own place as one rests in the natural state. 
Therefore, these are the visions of a yogin. 
The situation for those who are not involved in effort is as follows:
Naturally freed in and of themselves, afflictive emotions are themselves naturally free just as they are. 
Like iron cutting iron or stone breaking stone, they are their own greatest antidote. 
Anyone with such familiarity will, having realized natural great perfection, discover its implications by resting without seeking anything.
Supreme bliss unfolds without being cultivated in meditation. 
One directly experiences it as one's very nature. 
Though someone who encounters it may have committed harmful actions with immediate consequences, that person will be freed by becoming familiar with it. 
Of this there is no doubt-I swear it!"




Very Zen, and reminds me of one of the books I'm reading atm; 'John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination', I'll post an excerpt later.


Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 05:17 PM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28635479 - 01/26/24 10:21 AM (2 days, 4 hours ago)

Buddhist texts can be confusing because sometimes 'mind' refers to all inclusive awareness (which includes the body) and sometimes to thought


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28637721 - 01/28/24 08:02 AM (6 hours, 24 minutes ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Internal family systems is a great way to work with our perturbed parts, and it aligns with non duality really well too




IFS is one of the major therapy protocols being used by MAPS (psychedelic assisted therapy).

I have done a lot of 'parts work' (what we call IFS in men's groups).

The capital S Self in IFS doesn't exactly strike a chord with my Buddhist views but it's easy enough to convert the concept to the four immeasurables.

Generally though, thinking in parts and working with them compassionately, has been very helpful for me.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] * 2
    #28637858 - 01/28/24 09:46 AM (4 hours, 40 minutes ago)

Confession is therapeutic, the lamp lit this morning. Seems like months.


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28613651 - 01/08/24 05:29 AM (20 days, 8 hours ago)

Was meditating last night on cessation.  Just watching for when mental or sensory processes came to an end rather than always watching for what is new and exciting.

Turned awareness around at one point, curious if the sense of the observer ever ceased.

The center fell out after a minute or so of this and I was left with a coreless awareness of everything in the field of awareness.

No doer, no watcher.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28613700 - 01/08/24 06:32 AM (20 days, 7 hours ago)

I am reminded of the Diamond Sutra.


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28613713 - 01/08/24 06:47 AM (20 days, 7 hours ago)

The dialectics of the Diamond Sutra is amazing.  Do you have a favorite translation or commentary?  I started studying and working with Thich Nhat Hanh's while in prison (got busted for growing in '15) and it was very helpful.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28613985 - 01/08/24 10:56 AM (20 days, 3 hours ago)

As for translations, some have been better than others, but I don't have my favorite translator memorized. Long ago I had one I liked in book form, but I don't have any copies today.

I ignore every commentary I have read, I have yet to find one I care for. Aren't most commentaries made in the context of lineages? Lineage reminds me of the Rhinoceros Sutra. I like it as much as the Diamond Sutra.

In my ignorance, regarding the Diamond Sutra, I thought there was a literary joke in the work about self not existing and about how if a person explains the work they gain merit, but a person who understands the work knows that there is neither a self to gain the merit nor merit to be had and so none would explain the non-doctrine. The entire thing is as unto a koan in this regard, so it seems. That none who grasps the meaning can speak to it, etc, save indirectly for the comedy of the joke itself. The Sutra itself is quite entertaining in this regard to my simple-minded perspective. The sharp cutting edge of the Diamond in this case being the wit of the one who composed it.

Despite not having found any commentaries I can appreciate so far I am open to the idea of them, what one do you like?


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28614008 - 01/08/24 11:14 AM (20 days, 3 hours ago)

I've been looking at the red pine one lately. I like it cause he includes excerpts from other commentaries that go into so much detail. Its like hand holding through a deeper contemplation (sometimes hand holding seems appopriate, sometimes independent contemplation seems appropriate)

for example many of the sutras start with "Thus have I heard:", red pine says: 

Quote:

Commentators have written volumes on the profundity of evan (thus). Does it mean “like so,” or does it mean “just so”? And what is the difference? Is this sutra the finger that points to the moon, or is it the moon itself?

Li Wen-hui says, “‘Thus’ is another word for our nature. Outside of our nature, nothing else is real.”

Tao-ch’uan says, “The Way of the ancients was said to be ‘just so.’ For by the time they talked about it, it had already changed. But when the Way changes, where does it go? Spit it out! It doesn’t run off just anywhere. Where does it actually go? Speak! Words won’t burn your mouth. Just: on a clear still night the moon shines alone. So: water doesn’t exist apart from waves. The waves are water.”

Chiang Wei-nung says, “When people believe something, they say ‘it is thus.’ When they don’t believe something, they say, ‘it is not thus.’ The Avatamsaka Sutra says, ‘Belief marks the beginning of the Path. It is the mother of virtues and protector of all good dharmas.’ (6) Belief is the first gate on the Path. Hence, this expression is placed at the very beginning.”




Sometimes the slightest change in looking at something can be revealing.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28614021 - 01/08/24 11:28 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago)

For me the line could be changed to "long ago in a galaxy far far away" and nothing would be lost or gained.

I suspect that we have different perspectives on the meaning and utility of terms.
I am quite simple minded and the nuances and complexities of the wording in the Sutra surely go over my head.


Edited by Nillion (01/08/24 11:29 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28614176 - 01/08/24 02:45 PM (19 days, 23 hours ago)

only God moves things.

all our actions are done by the God part of our consiousness even though our ego fantasizes it was them.

Therefore, no sin committed through you is yours.

If you're an Omnicyclian.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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