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syncro
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Agency, Who is the doer? 5
#28613608 - 01/08/24 04:08 AM (20 days, 3 hours ago) |
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This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.
In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.
This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.
The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!
Edited by syncro (01/08/24 06:12 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom]
#28614800 - 01/09/24 05:03 AM (19 days, 2 hours ago) |
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That which knows. ? We also have that described as Satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So then I ask, does existence know? How about emptiness?
We say no observer, yet to know it would be to contradict it. Perhaps we could say, no separate observer. There are times in immersion or insight that are experienced as selfless, or ego dissolution, but how did you know? It may have been an entirely different kind of thing, but was not some kind of you there in it?
It seems so much of it comes back to limitations of language.
I suppose this is a disclaimer of language. "And yet, even as I speak, Subhuti, I must take back my words as soon as they are uttered, for there are no Buddhas and there are no teachings." Statements like Brahman can't be known - it is that which knows, yet also, Brahman shines - contradictions, not that these bother me in affinity.
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syncro
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Quote:
the foundation is the "me" not the Ego but the deeper Me that is in humans, in sea snails, in trees and even rocks.
its the universal Me that connects everything and is the same in everyone.
the most basic default, yet infinitely wise.
thats the One
I have wondered what is meant by the Son of Man and arrived at them being the same as Ishvara, manifest. :shrugs: Then talking about Kashmir Shaivism the distinction was emphasized between Ishvara and Brahman, the latter the unmoving beyond where the former is manifest. Though it seems distinguishing them is rather arbitrary in practice, as if one is without the other, as if Shakti is distinct from Shiva, form different from emptiness, Holy Spirit different from Christ or the Father. That one throws me for a loop. "I will baptize you with water ... he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." He being Christ presumably. The Holy Spirit is sent for us, yet Christ is there baptizing you. What is need to send another? They are one.
What does she love more than Shiva? Therefore the more one goes to him the more she can enliven, (for him, you, their unity.) They reunite in eye-le three. "Clean up in eyele three please."
Individual agency may want to play. Teacher agency wants you to go into deep silence, yet it empowers play. Fruit is sovereignty, yet they want you to keep discipline and cook all the seeds.
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syncro
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A friend just arrived at an ashram in India on a holy river for an extended stay and program of tapas, say. What I had forgotten somewhat, rather near completely in the wakeful day, as she had too, was peace. She sent pictures and vibes saying it is so easy to exist there! Coming from high plains winter and plugged into the man-net and tech and hope in indulgence, the struggle and stress of mere first world no less. The peace transmitted, the deep beauty of nature and the temple and setting, the atmosphere, from on high on earth such peace.
Not that your words need addressing - the last questions if I understood, not that I did or need to but to enjoy the art, but for dukkha. Nothing needed to do but for dukkha, not to over emphasize but it is. And why for dukkha? As said above compassion is as natural as the next breath in them. Dukkha is the only thing untoward I guess. May all have peace.
When invoking such presence it can only be for one thing-
Sarve Bhavantu Sukinah May everyone, everywhere, be happy
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28629616 - 01/21/24 09:18 AM (6 days, 21 hours ago) |
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On the other hand, in Patanjali's yoga iirc and similarly in other works, an object is considered on which is made the dharana, dhyana, samadhi, that often being use of repetition with such as the breathing or mantra. In concentration (on something) it is used equivalently to cease thought to the exclusion of all else. Only one means none other as much.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28629787 - 01/21/24 12:09 PM (6 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Ramana Maharshi; “How could you doubt the reality of this ‘I’ which is questioning? This ‘I’ is your ‘normal’ state. What effort, then, would you have to make in order to enter into this normal state?”
Arguably an answer would be purification. Of course, abiding as such purifies, but there is heaviness in habits and stupidity and therefore various means discovered.
The natural state as so emphasized is always there so it seems to me kind of beside the (actionable) point, which is impurity or dukkha.
Same reason enthoeogens are used, to remove obstacles and open up. Could say just relax, yet states of impurity are not relaxed but caught up. At the same time, that relaxation or contentment purifies.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] 1
#28630686 - 01/22/24 05:59 AM (6 days, 1 hour ago) |
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The free will lady! To arms! Release the frog!

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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28630688 - 01/22/24 06:10 AM (6 days, 59 minutes ago) |
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I enjoy her talks. btw, I wasn't commenting on her person, but releasing the great spirit frog as a kraken to battle.
Edited by syncro (01/22/24 07:12 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630708 - 01/22/24 06:57 AM (6 days, 12 minutes ago) |
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JDK: "The mind that is making effort, disciplining itself in order to achieve an end, cannot know truth, because the end is its own projection."
First of all, he is doing repetition, and giving sadhana in the nature of 'self-inquiry', what is the term, vichāra. Second, it describing only half of the process of such as mantra yoga, and not the fruit, which is self-knowledge, atma vidya. As the heart continues to beat while there is life and in vichāra, in a ripened practice the mantra continues, and it acts like a magnetic field as it were, aligning the scattered forces to one. It is the same.
From the quote of the Kena Upanishad: "That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind--that alone is Brahman, not what people worship."
Of course, it is also in what people worship. I'm reminded of seeing recently a quote by a teacher, paraphrased, "All things have essence of light."
The formless type teachings are appealing to me, but saying ways of forms and symbols do not bring the same just says to me they are not practiced to fruition by the speaker. And vichara is a practice, repetition imo, to be brought to fruition, as Ramana said, our normal state is abnormal.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] 1
#28630799 - 01/22/24 08:52 AM (5 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
"Although the self is at all times and in all things, yet it cannot shine in everything, but will shine only in the consciousness, just as a reflection will appear only in polished surfaces."
"One should separate the grain of the pure inner self from the chaff of the body and- other sheaths by the threshing of reason."
Atmabodha
reason, love, concentration, dance, art, works, entheogens
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28630952 - 01/22/24 11:33 AM (5 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Interesting an inverted bifurcation though I'm stereotyping (not judging) - it seems those who seek through form and symbol tend more to the samadhis, void, other-non-worldly, while those who who are inclined to the formless approach in tathatas, mindfulness, tend to grounding in the world, nature, here and now with as it is. I know it's not accurate all the time as they do samadhis, and disappearance seekers have the natural mergings, ...
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro]
#28631009 - 01/22/24 12:25 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Not an accurate observation though. Say the yogis aim to subdue and transcend the five senses, and the tathata types discern the emptiness of all things. One is the other in effect. I guess it's a personal attraction if a tendency. Do nature people tend more to mindfulness paths, and do users of entheogens?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28631135 - 01/22/24 02:37 PM (5 days, 16 hours ago) |
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The history of the great frog spirit - In the Ramayana there was a little frog in the mud of a river bank, and Lord Ram had rested his staff in the mud, imposing on the little frog, and Ram said, why didn't you say anything? It was because the frog knew who he was. In my mind the little frog became a great spirit who could swallow solar systems like flies. It would be no problem for him to swallow the free will lady.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis]
#28631226 - 01/22/24 04:08 PM (5 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
whether or not a spiritual practice is absolutely necessary
It depends on what one wants. An average person trying to make their way in the world, typically unhappy, worldly, suffering - they are the Buddha it is said, their mind is the essence. Do they need to do anything? Does it serve them to say they don't need to do anything, that they are it already? To say and receive that is not doing nothing. The insight changes one.
It depends on their constitution as said, preference. Can they chill in the now, or do they need that with the "Holy spirit and with fire?" Do they need to stoke the fire of tapas, cultivation? Sincere mindfulness is tapas and cultivation, redoing the neurons, as do entheogens presumably. Use of entheogens is not doing nothing.
So who actually does not practice? What is done without a goal of freedom, starting with getting food in the stomach, etc.?
A point I was thinking of was that all things have their source in their cause which is subtle, in light, if as was said, the gross elements, bodies. The sources of natural things are as much a part of nature and rightfully pursued by choice.
Can it be done without a serious pursuit? The guru's bowl floating upstream against the current, at that level seems to do so effortlessly. What mighty effort was involved? How much time taken, evolution?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28631746 - 01/23/24 06:27 AM (5 days, 42 minutes ago) |
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Just to say again about the free will lady, I like her and think she is a good professor. In her realm (physics) she destroys free will. Yet in all things determined so came this weird thing of intuition, hope, sense of self-direction and self-determination, the sense of free will. We've been through it a lot in these forums in recent years. In language and logic, no free will pretty much wins I think. Yet sitting here it still seems not to, in poetry land, wonder and expansion, stillness, potential, dharma and love, etc.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632029 - 01/23/24 11:02 AM (4 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Streaming in, and, streaming out.
I find I do that, especially in busy phases with the world, I run back and touch the Self as it were, then run away again.
Nb4 before people correct me and say you can never not touch it, so what I mean is going into a different place within, altered experience of meditative bent that reveals that which is not so evident in the normal waking state. And I agree they should be integrated making "the inner like the outer."
Quote:
spinvis said: Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.
I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog]
#28632090 - 01/23/24 12:16 PM (4 days, 18 hours ago) |
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It kind of blends in, but yes. Maybe not much but have read Dogen. Effective quote.
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28632262 - 01/23/24 03:57 PM (4 days, 15 hours ago) |
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Beautiful Sufi thing. Later I thought of the nature of the namaha in mantra which means 'honor to' but also 'not me', so, God or essence, not me, which that God feller was so driving.
Here's a standard I considered in whether one 'needs' practices, improvement, or not (including entheogens if chosen...) 
In Vedanta again we have the all described as satchitananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So bliss is foundational, one with existence, one with consciousness. It is not some extra thing we seek but it is realized.
Asking ourselves if we have self-knowledge, we can say, do I exist, am I conscious? These are easy. Then is asked, do I know bliss, am I in it?
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633022 - 01/24/24 08:30 AM (3 days, 22 hours ago) |
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"I'm not really satisfied"
It's well explained. I'm not really passed that I am not space, in good moments, but it's not a bad problem to have. A deeper immersion perhaps is a jump to hyperspace. Also, the insubstantial is increasingly substantial, the density of the exquisite unbounded. Maybe that is in the black holes.
"processing!"
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syncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] 1
#28633129 - 01/24/24 10:12 AM (3 days, 20 hours ago) |
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That with Longchenpa, space as enlightened intent, stuck with me. Taking all the precious jewels in universes as numerous as grains of sand in the Ganges, would, spinvis, the value be great?
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