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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Agency, Who is the doer? * 5
    #28613608 - 01/08/24 04:08 AM (19 days, 15 hours ago)

This came up in the yogas thread and I thought to make one for it.

In creationist writings (not necessarily meaning in a religious context), there is implication of such and such was the first that moved, and before that nothing moved, as the undifferentiated or nondual would be said to be unmoving.

This morning was interesting as I awoke and observing myself moving, I asked, what moves? Repeatedly as I did my thing for a bit I was asking. The outer world of movement became as a shell around me and within was the unmoving. It was a nice gift.

The topic of agency seems rich with paradox and koan perhaps, free will, no will, only the one will. What moves? "You are not the doer." What say you!


Edited by syncro (01/08/24 06:12 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 4
    #28617153 - 01/11/24 04:00 AM (16 days, 15 hours ago)

trace back where the question originated from right to the very tippity top of its branches and down to the very most bottom of its roots, then cut them all off and see what remains; regardless of how fanned out things might get, or, of how far apart they might seem, eventually you'll hit the tap of seemingly nothing but something in which is everything & in which everything is contained of as emptiness (in a manner of speaking, but, note - the term itself is highly misleading).

To have a chance at finding it as leading to nowhere beyond the here and now, beyond oneself, whereby one is already present at by the very means by which nothing but pure presence unifying everything can be found as the same as that which is both as what there is to cognize as that as which is being recognized, as that which is the same unity multiplied of its own vast potentiality from having no beginning and knowing no end?

So much power is so enormous it cannot but stand out of itself without anything helping it outside of itself to give it a hand.
Nevertheless, meanwhile, everything is everywhere all at once, everyplace is in space, all space is ever expanding infinitary openness, like the eternal phoenix triumphant, the buddha's sly smile while simply referring to suchness as the non-absolute nature of emptiness, a real illusion - even that isn't it, just a simile or metaphor, analogy, something to compare it with which to contrast it with.

Moreover; and, as such, as to the above, 'it' - this question - as to 'doing' is purely naturally of a nature of which its own nature ultimately is unconditionally 'deathless'.

Its funny you know?  "The Big Bang" ...
Oh, you mean, something just burst and over time particles collided across timelessness itself just to diffuse itself like an ocean without a planet like a planet without a solar system, like a solar system without a galaxy, like a galaxy without a cosmic system -  only to express those very things itself, without ever doing a thing but for something akin to a dream dreaming dreamers also capable of dreaming endlessly with a visa granted via the very enchantment of its own luster putting itself into a delusive sleep, in essence, allowing ignorance, which in turn, allows for everything?  Without ignorance, there is no awareness, without awareness there is neither perception nor non perception.  Without perception nor non perception there is but pure absence of all form - with the absence of all form there is emptiness, with emptiness there is emptiness of even itself - hence - the true nature of things being empty also entailing that the nature of said nature is of a non-absolute emptiness, allowing for something, rather than absolute voidness of all actuality in there would not even be reality?  Its primal nondual awareness of oneself and all else as completely intra-interwovenness as plucked by causality of its own doings from becoming forever for all eternity.


But for the eyes, the ears, the noses, the mouths, and arms, how else can something beyond even magic itself not notice this suchness? 

without something else for reference is telling of itself....as...telling of itself as placeless.

I like calling it the primordial mind, but who cares what one calls it, it has no name, lmao.  my brain structure will function to predict solutions for any and everything it can possibly get its grubby little mitts into, once you dip the tip into infinity's hole, you'd best be damned sure you're double strapped or ready to become aware of a likeness to an all-father, all-mother, all-family, all-in-all, all at once, always already together forever for an eternity chilling out so hard it energetically condenses to a point until merging virtually itself anew before bursting again and so on and so forth.  Matter, compounded matter comprised of more basic particulate, as interaction via spacetime's waveletting of light and gravity and other forces upon the world of subatomics; and, further beyond the quantum even, lies nothing but more unlimitedness - the mark of what's already always unbegotten having always already gotten there before you find it, as how can something omnipresent and so omnidirectionally spread infinitely about not always already all potentialities expressing the phenomenon by which something can even come to know of a reality via that something's energy's essentially being the ultimate kingpin of transformation itself?

Also, the aforementioned, as in right here and now itself, is telling itself about how things in general cannot be, or do, or be, or work  - in other words - Constancy of Change = Transformation.  If not for all things in tandem with every other thing else in general also doing the same, too, then how else could things be, let alone change in order to become what they inevitably be as pure sport-like loving spontaneity? 

In short...

No need for there to be a doer and or an agent, simultaneously, No need for there not to be a doer ageing stuff as an agent of the agency of change!...(ha)...but we may as well enjoy being for with it we've been enabled to seem like we are as we seem anyways, at least, for the duration of time of an awareness being such as it is embodied energy of the primordial good-goody-god in whatever the form it is as expressed as, with, by, and or through as you, I, and all sentient lifeforms.

ps.  i'm pretty darn exhausted and I'm aware of some technical difficulties and a series of hiccups made throughout my post. Apologies if that makes it difficult to understand, not to mention I perhaps waxed a bit too thicc with the poetic, but, with that said, I do hope the root of the question you asked will be found at some time within the now, as resoundingly so, while not looking outside of what's always within you & you within it. 

So long as the gist is crisp enough for you to grokk ~ t'sall more or less, good fun, for goodness itself, and as such, my post will have been made basically good, and, if so, then thank goodness.

Slightly entertaining to entertain pondering these sorts of things, right?  I've no claim to absolute truth, I merely let this post flow of vision like artistry to express what I cannot help but suggest of what's been ingested of mind through the senses wandering about without warning.  Whether fishing for feedback, of genuine curiosity, or out of compassion to aid another ~ even if at times, technically wrong, or, sometimes totally out of bounds, :lol:... how else can I forge myself, learn critically, while aware without seeing how I do without testing my ignorance thoroughly?

Hopefully, what becomes of it is like an elixir of wisdom worth truly pouring.  It's not quite there yet, despite having been a long time coming, and, no matter how long or short the one's life seems to be, what is worthwhile beyond goodness, wisdom, & tempered compassion to one's relative situation as per one's incomplete knowledge of understanding all the facts, something which whenever looking back, seems to thrive on ever more than before?  Verily accumulating experience seemingly manifesting as such so as to be pointed untoward?

Well, maybe at another time we can go at it again.
To exchange ideas, compare, stare, dare, and a bit more - just not this morning... b/c i'm too tired to edit & revise...despite the wall of shit I now stare at as my workplace begins calling, oh me, oh my, oh goodness gracious...:lol::popcorn:  :thumbup:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] * 4
    #28634641 - 01/25/24 03:18 PM (2 days, 4 hours ago)

This one might give away the blind ass' name:


KOAN:

Yun Men imparted some words saying, "Everyone has a light; when you look at it, you don't see it and it's dark and dim. What is everybody's light?"

He himself answered on their behalf, "The kitchen pantry and the main gate." He also said, "A good thing isn't as good as nothing.”

POEM:

"Spontaneously shining, bathed in solitary light

It is an open secret

Flowers fall, the tree has no shadow

Look! Who does not see?

Seeing, not seeing

Ride the OX backward and enter the Buddha Hall"


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 4
    #28636520 - 01/27/24 07:26 AM (12 hours, 9 minutes ago)

"Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place."

I like the use of the terms "afflictive emotions" & "resting imperturbably"

My default mode is to feel perturbed


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 3
    #28635033 - 01/25/24 09:24 PM (1 day, 22 hours ago)



Forget what I said - I was arguing effort-no-effort, but the picture shines. Pranams.


Edited by syncro (01/25/24 10:19 PM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 3
    #28635728 - 01/26/24 03:19 PM (1 day, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Quote:

There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.




I also didn't mean to imply it as a different path per se, but an emphasis. I imagine there are similar practices in Buddhism, as the principle of bhuta shuddhi, purification of the elements, though my personal uses of the body ideas are beyond purification, in how things manifest and are described.

There are principles in the yogas of taking on new bodies, a divine body which I fit with trikaya, the threefold bodies of Buddha.




There are many body/energy purification practices in Buddhism. Even the basic meditation posture opens the body. Breathe meditation is purifying and gets more and more subtle.

There are also things like Tsa Lung and Tummo practices and many more


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 3
    #28635964 - 01/26/24 05:48 PM (1 day, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

The practice of true reality is simply to sit serenely in silent introspection.
When you have fathomed this you cannot be turned around
by external causes and conditions. This empty, wide open mind is subtly
and correctly illuminating. Spacious and content, without confusion
from inner thoughts of grasping, effectively overcome habitual
behavior and realize the self that is not possessed by emotions. You
must be broad-minded, whole without relying on others. Such
upright independent spirit can begin not to pursue degrading situations.
Here you can rest and become clean, pure, and lucid. Bright
and penetrating, you can immediately return, accord, and respond to
deal with events. Everything is unhindered, clouds gracefully floating
up to the peaks, the moonlight glitteringly flowing down mountain
streams. The entire place is brightly illumined and spiritually transformed,
totally unobstructed and clearly manifesting responsive
interaction like box and lid or arrowpoints [meeting) .? Continuing,
cultivate and nourish yourself to enact maturity and achieve stability.
If you accord everywhere with thorough clarity and cut off sharp corners
without dependence on doctrines, like the white bull or wildcat
[helping to arouse wonder] , you can be called a complete person. So
we hear that this is how one on the way of non-mind acts, but before
realizing non-mind we still have great hardship.




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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #28617398 - 01/11/24 09:04 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:

the One cycle that has all minor cycli within it.

you, me, the fishes in the sea.

forever.




One of my favorite analogies is that form is the waves, emptiness is the ocean.  But without the waves, there is no ocean.  Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Closest thing to God I suppose in Buddhism.  Emptiness.  Which would be like, systemness itself.  Impermanence, no self.  Interbeing and interconnection.  The one major cycle.  Cycleness itself.  Process itself.

Who is the doer?  Process itself.  Action itself.

Breakfast arises.

Makes itself.  Born of...

84,000 hungry human bellies,

Eggs and oyster mushrooms.

As soon as my stoned ass,

Gets off this couch.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/11/24 09:17 AM)


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: connectedcosmos] * 2
    #28618318 - 01/12/24 05:09 AM (15 days, 14 hours ago)

The morrow man escapes into dreamland!

Rosary  crosses.

Building, benefit.

Money shattered and monet spent.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28632129 - 01/23/24 01:01 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Quote:

spinvis said:
Anyway, since mystical experiences happen randomly and are fairly common, there's no requisite practice needed. It becomes wanted once you want to "show" it to the next person.




I respect that and agree. On the other hand, say there is a shrub that grows randomly in the wild, the 'enlightenment flower'. It may be happened upon, but there are those who will farm, cultivate it with intention, like so many here cultivate their own entheogens - they cannot at all say in this context there is no cultivation needed if chosen by other means, if buying or growing, using them.




:grin: I was expecting something along these lines. So from one of my favourite books with regards to non dualism, no Vedanta or Buddhism this time, however it's forms part of both as well.

For the sake of the non dualist/conceptual side argument, and for educational purposes.

Who doesn't love the deeply beautiful flowing wordplay of Sufi mystics? :heart:

Cecilia Twinch; Awḥad Al-dīn Balyānī - Know Yourself: An Explanation of the Oneness of Being;
Quote:

Because of this, the Prophet, God bless him and give him peace, said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He also said, I knew my Lord through my Lord. What the Prophet pointed out by that, is that you are not you but you are Him and there is no you. It is not that He enters into you or that you enter into Him, or that He comes out of you or that you come out of Him. That does not mean that you have being and you are qualified by this or that attribute. What is meant is that you never were and never will be, whether through yourself or through Him or in Him or with Him. You have neither ceased to be nor are you existent. You are Him and He is you, without any of these imperfections. If you know your existence in this way, then you know God, and if not, then not. 

Most of those who claim to know God make the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of existence and on the passing away of that passing away. That is clearly an error and misconception. The knowledge of God does not require the passing away of existence or the passing away of that passing away because things have no existence and what does not exist cannot pass away. Passing away implies the prior existence of the thing that passes away. If you know yourself without existing and passing away, then you know God, and if not, then not. 

By making the knowledge of God dependent on the passing away of your existence and the passing away of that passing away, there is an affirmation of something other than God. The Prophet said, Whoever knows their self, knows their Lord. He did not say, Whoever annihilates their self, knows their Lord. 

Your being is nothing and whatever is nothing cannot be placed in relationship to anything else, whether it is capable of passing away or not and whether it is existent or nonexistent. The Prophet alluded to the fact that you are nonexistent now as you were nonexistent before creation, because now is eternity-without-beginning and now is eternity-without-end and now is timelessness. God is the very being of eternity-withoutbeginning, eternity-without-end and timelessness even though in reality there is no eternity-without-beginning, eternity-without-end or timelessness. If it were otherwise, He would not be alone, without any associate. However, it is necessary for Him to be  alone without any associate because any associate would exist through itself, and not through the being of God. Then that associate would not need God and would therefore be a second Lord, which is impossible. God has no associate, equal or like. 

Whoever sees anything with God, whether coming out of Him or within Him, but dependent on Him by virtue of His lordship, has also made that thing an associate even though that associate depends on Him by virtue of His lordship. Whoever allows that there could be anything with God whether subsisting by itself or through Him, whether in a state of having passed away or the passing away of passing away - is far from breathing the scent of self-knowledge.

Because whoever accepts that there could be any being other than Him, yet subsisting through Him and in Him, then passing away in successive stages of passing away and passing away of passing away - which is polytheism upon polytheism and not knowledge of the self at all - is a polytheist [who believes in many gods] and does not know God or themselves.




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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28632165 - 01/23/24 01:59 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

I've been reading a bit of systems sciences as well as reading some of Bhikkhu Analayo's stuff regarding signs, name and form and the arising of consciousness, etc. and I think I'd put it like this.

There's form, the material universe.  Which can be described as interdependent and embedded processes.

There's name, the way we turn the above processes into signs or symbols that the mind can grasp easily.  Not just language but the literal sense impression, tree.  The way a tree hits you on all five aggregates.  If you grow entheogens, cop is another sign that maybe better demonstrates what I mean by how it hits you.

Consciousness co-arises with name and form.

The error, I think, as in, where the sense of the doer arises, is in the naming.  We make semi-permanent concepts around processes.  Turning process into object.

The Buddha didn't say things don't exist.  He said things are impermanent (process) and not self (interdependent, embedded, systemness).

Personally, I think once people get a taste of freedom and well-being, rather from entheogens or the dharma, it's hard to turn away from the path.  Sometimes I resent both my practice and my psychedelics.  But it's the way I sometimes resent having to breathe when I want to smoke cigarettes or hold my breath for long periods of time.  Eventually, breathing always wins.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28633005 - 01/24/24 08:10 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think once you get a clear enough glimpse of the emptiness of self, that organizing principle stops working, and entropy or deconditioning starts dissolving the self constructs, which leads to a sort of progression on a path, where new vistas continue to open along the way. This process may be helped along through practices.

And for clarity, the appearance of self returns (typically), its just that once its seen for what it is (or isn't), its power to organize the conditioning process is lost or diminished.

It may be that without that glimpse, practices are a continuation of a self practicing, although by accident one may forget the self while practicing.




This sounds right to me.

I've had such experiences multiple times with entheogens but it's much easier to mentally dismiss.

I had one meditation experience where I was doing dry insight work on the sense of self.  Tracking them down, investigating it until it dissolved as not self.  Moving on to the next place it arose.  For a moment there was a gap.  Just sense impressions flowing without a center.  Meditative 'ego death'.

I've gone back and forth on if that was stream entry.  Either way it was impossible to unsee and very hard to replicate with dry insight work.

I can get to boundless awareness now pretty easy using annapanasati.  And generally hold myself more gently and take myself less seriously.

But I was a huge mess when I started practicing.  And now I'm a big mess that can at least laugh at himself and show himself some compassion.  So, that's quite an improvement.  Rather I'm selfing or not.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: tree frog] * 2
    #28633178 - 01/24/24 11:03 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Longchenpa





Quote:

tree frog said:
Longchenpa






A Buddhist nun from Australia reads a lot of great texts from different traditions. She has 56 videos just reading Longchenpa:

I like the way she reads


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O7TzD927svErYJ1sH58arEi


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28633432 - 01/24/24 02:55 PM (3 days, 4 hours ago)

A few excerpts from the Seven Treasuries. Dzogchen is very similar to for example Chan and Zen.

Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 5 - The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding - 4. The Theme of Oneness;
Quote:

In summary, one comes to a decisive experience of the resolution of phenomena as a supreme and unnameable state:

Within the vast expanse—unnameable and free of elaboration— one comes to a decisive experience of the phenomena of the world of appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana.
Within the vast expanse—the unborn simultaneity of awareness and emptiness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of one’s own self-knowing awareness.
Within the vast expanse—which has nothing to do with the recognition or nonrecognition of awareness— one comes to a decisive experience concerning the phenomena of awakened mind.
Within the vast expanse—with no transition or change throughout the three times— one comes to a decisive experience concerning timelessly and totally empty phenomena.

All possible phenomena of samsara and nirvana arise within the scope of awareness, timelessly free of elaboration, and it is ultimately within that awareness that one comes to a decisive experience of these phenomena.



The Great Victory Banner That Never Falls states:
Quote:

There is no change, only ongoing abiding.
This is like space—limitations are evened out— and it is not something that relies on anything else.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:

You come to the decisive experience that does not rely on the key points of skillful means and sublime knowing:

To hold that one cannot realize the inexpressible without relying on specific means to characterize it is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as inseparability from the ultimate makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.

Lower spiritual approaches hold that one cannot perceive the ultimate meaning of mind itself without relying on their respective means methods such as those involving the subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu or the two accumulations. In this case, what makes perfect sense in the ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in all its nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of awareness even for an instant, to say that it is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression.

. . .

You come to a decisive experience that is beyond imagination, transcending what is boundless:

Although great perfection is timeless and infinite, without fixed depth or extent, to claim that it is "unfathomable" is a fool's attitude. What the ati approach reveals as a boundless, unique state makes eminently perfect sense, although it is unacceptable in lower approaches.

Followers of lower spiritual approaches-and even some who follow the Categories of Mind and Expanse-hold that because the ultimate essence, this great perfection, has no center or limit, no fixed depth or extent, it is some boundless void state, which they call "beyond the scope of awareness." Here, on the other hand, unique, unobstructed awareness is revealed in all its nakedness, and so does not lie within the scope of ordinary mind or consciousness or any frame of reference. To perceive it within the scope of one's individual self-knowing awareness is to realize it through the key point of distinguishing between ordinary mind and timeless awareness.

. . .

You come to the decisive experience of confusion as a supreme state beyond labels:

This timelessly awakened awareness that entails no object does not wander in samsara, for it is beyond all basis for confusion. No one at all is confused, for there is no context for confusion. Everything lies within the scope of the basic space of phenomena, a single lucid expanse. With no time frame, this spaciousness is equal to space itself. Samsara is primordially pure, a timeless and spontaneously present state of utter relaxation.

Consider the fact that while dreams do not stray from the context of sleep, sleep does not stray from the context of awareness and awareness in turn does not stray from the context of the basic space of phenomena. If you analyze and examine this, you see that no one has ever experienced falling into samsara. Samsara itself is already and forever pure, for it is by nature clearly apparent without truly existing-the very essence of what a dream is, manifest yet without an independent nature. These expressions of emptiness are furthermore pure in dharmakaya, which is without underlying basis or foundation. So the causes of confusion, confusion itself, perceptions based on confusion, and the one ex· periencing confusion have never known existence. One has not been confused in the past, does not experience confusion in the present, and cannot possibly be confused in the future, because there is already and forever a total purity as the very essence of space, which is without underlying basis.




The Great Garuda states:
Quote:

There is no name for, let alone the possibility of, confusion or nonrecognition for anyone. Therefore, since nothing has ever been freed, freeing later on is a fallacy.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - 9. The Decisive Experience;
Quote:

You come to the decisive experience of the nonduality of samsara and nirvana:

One does not enter a state of freedom or attain nirvana. The unchanging vast expanse-samsara and nirvana have never known existence. Here there is no frame of reference for renunciation or attainment, hope or fear, but rather a supremely spacious expanse that is the primordially enlightened ground of being. All things are mere labels, for in actuality they are beyond characterization or expression. Having decisively experienced that samsara is not confusion and nirvana is not freedom, let no one make any effort! Let no one try to meddle with or alter this!

That is to say, given that self-knowing awareness is timelessly empty and pure like space, samsara is pure in that bondage does not exist and nirvana is totally pure in that freedom does not exist. Since self-know-ing awareness is beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence, you come to a decision that it entails no effort or achievement, no hope or fear.

. . .

You come to the decisive experience of freedom from limitation as a supremely spacious expanse:

Awareness, with no breadth or depth, is not subject to restrictions or extremes, so give up any frame of reference. Awareness, involving no plans or actions, no corning or going, entails no time frame or antidote, so drop reification and effort. If there is a deliberate frame of reference, it is a cause of bondage. Do not rely on any fixed construct whatsoever-let go in evenness!

You should understand that, in essence, awareness is not subject to restrictions or extremes, involves no time frame, no renunciation or antidotes, no plans or actions, no coming or going, no view, meditation, conduct, or fruition, no question of what it is or is not, and no effort or achievement. It transcends the effort and achievement involved in the ten attributes. It is a supremely spacious expanse, free of limitation and all-pervasive, yet it has never existed as anything whatsoever.



The All-Creating Monarch states:
Quote:

The uncontrived genuine state is the true nature of everything. There is no buddhahood apart from this nature. To use the term "buddhahood" is simply to use an arbitrary designation. This true nature requires nothing other than itself-natural mind. Natural mind, uncontrived, is defined as dharmakaya. In being uncontrived, it is timelessly unborn, so in the ultimate sense of its being unborn, there is nothing to seek or achieve. That which requires no action will not be accomplished by attempts to seek or achieve it.




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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28634477 - 01/25/24 12:53 PM (2 days, 6 hours ago)

Light meditation trips me up in the tibatan terminology and I tend to get hung up on eye consciousness in particular being into psychedelics.  Lately the entheogens have been drawing me into shadow work.  Granted I fell back into some habits over covid so there's a lot of shadow work happening around boundaries and precepts.

Is light a metaphor for the reflexive nature of mind to cognize?

The text above and stuff I've read on Nirvana suggests that the mind can't cognize itself in the typical sense.

That the Nirvana event is touching the essence and the place cognition ends because the essence is both the birth and death of all cognitive events.

A sign arises after (Oh, I touched it).  But the cognitive act is again a sign and not the essence itself.

I experience it like the event horizon of a black hole.

Conceptual questions like is it aware of itself don't cross the threshold.  I think Nagarjuna pointed this out to me with his being/non-being, coming/going dichotomies.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 01:50 PM)


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28634617 - 01/25/24 02:58 PM (2 days, 4 hours ago)

I see.

All phenomena are shown to have the same source (stream entry).

Samsara is forgetting this.  Nirvana is the awareness of this.

Interesting that I found the source by digging in the dark.  There was a warmth and a profound stillness.  And a sense of immensity.

The sign that arises for me is like a black hole.  An immense inky blackness with an event horizon.  So I never did get the light metaphors.  But I have attachments to the sign light and had to abandon it a long time ago.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/25/24 03:00 PM)


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: Freedom] * 2
    #28634697 - 01/25/24 04:19 PM (2 days, 3 hours ago)

Yup, that did it.



    The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately

    conveyed from west to east.

    Among human beings are wise ones and fools,

    But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.

    The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary

    streams flow through the darkness.

    To be attached to things is illusion;

    To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.

    Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,

    and at the same time, independent.

    Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.

    Form makes the character and appearance different;

    Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.

    The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.

    The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.

    Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.

    Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.

    Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality

    Like leaves that come from the same root.

    The words high and low are used relatively.

    Within light there is darkness, do not be against the darkness. (nothingness/absolute);

    Within darkness there is light, do not be against the light. (material/relative).

    Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before

    and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value

    and is related to everything else in function and position.

    Things exist as real as how the lid and box fits.

    Truth corresponds like the sharp arrow piercing (through things).

    Reading words you should grasp where it’s coming from. Do not come up with your own rules.

    If you can not comprehend the way, on a far journey how would you know the road.

    Progress is not about far or near, delusion can block (you) as firmly as the mountains and rivers.

    I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:

    Do not waste your time by night or day.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28634733 - 01/25/24 05:09 PM (2 days, 2 hours ago)

Two more excerpts that are related, and reminded me of other approaches.

Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - SPONTANEOUSLY PRESENT AWARENESS;
Quote:

Even for those called "ordinary beings," there is nothing other than the context of awareness. Thus, since awareness itself is such that it cannot be separated into samsara and nirvana, there is no need for beings to exert themselves or try to achieve something else. The Perfect Dynamic Energy of the Lion states: 

For ordinary beings and buddhas, awareness is not different. 

And Naturally Arising Awareness states: 

An ordinary being's awareness is true buddhahood. 

It can be shown that awareness does not waver and is beyond effort: 

Within the essence of being-spontaneous and uniform, unwavering and beyond deliberation-lies the spacious expanse of the ground of being, not created yet ensuring all that has ultimate meaning. 

Dharmakaya is spontaneously present as the essence of awareness, and so it abides as this uncreated essence, ensuring all that has ultimate meaning; it constitutes timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous. This can be shown to be the ground of being as the basic space of phenomena, free of limitation. The Reverberation of Sound states: 

Timeless awareness, amazing and marvelous, was ineffable in the past and will be ineffable in the future, for it is primordially ineffable. 
Right now, it is beyond the realm of the imagination. 
Free of limitation, its very nature is emptiness. 
Beyond words, surpassing ordinary consciousness, and essentially empty, that nature is not in any way divisible and so entails no manifestation of responsiveness in actions. 
Due to the third, manifest aspect of timeless awareness, knowledge deriving from conceptual consciousness is misconstrued, leading to a state of confusion.
But it has no limited frame of reference. 
It is ineffable, and within its marvelous display the fruition state of all buddhas is discovered.
Inside and out, everything is the basic space of phenomena, which has no manifest form whatsoever.




The first part reminded me of Shankara, commentary from Swami Tadatmananda.

Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:

Enlightened yogis see
the entire world in themselves
and see everything as non-separate from atma,
with the eye of knowledge.


Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.



Longchenpa - The Seven Treasuries - Volume 1 - A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission: A Commentary on the Precious Treasure of the Basic Space of Phenomena - RESTING IN UNCONTRIVED CONDUCT;
Quote:

Another pivotal point is that afflictive emotions are free in their own place: 

Thus, all desirable, undesirable, and neutral mental states, in which the three poisons arise as a display due to dynamic energy, occur within basic space, arising within the context of that space.
Since they occur only within basic space, not straying from it in the least, without trying to anticipate or manipulate them in any way, it is crucial to identify basic space itself, for as soon as you rest in that context, they will subside naturally, vanish naturally, and be freed naturally.


Since samsara and nirvana do not stray from the realm of basic space, they are merely natural expressions of emptiness that have no basis. As well, afflictive emotions have in essence never known existence. There is nothing that serves as their support. They do not come from some fundamental source. And so, solely by resting imperturbably in your natural state, you are freed of their restricting influence. When the essence of awareness is identified as unobstructed, afflictive emotions are naturally freed, pristine in their own place. This is similar to a pack load falling just where it is when the pin holding the restraining knot is pulled out.
If you do not understand this, you will not be able to abandon afflictive emotions even if you try, for they accompany you as naturally as your shadow does your body. You will not be able to refine them away even if you try, for what attempts the refining is no different from what is to be refined; this is like being unable to make a crystal more transparent than it already is. Your emotions will not change even if you try to change them, for mind cannot change mind, just as a piece of turquoise cannot change its color. You will not be able to still them by letting thern become calm naturally, for they are none other than the thinking process involved in letting them go. They cannot be freed with antidotes, for that would be like wanting to make water clearer yet stirring it with a stick; antidotes themselves are just as much something to be abandoned as they are something used to abandon something else. Afflictive emotions in and of themselves are not your true nature-thinking that they are is no different from the thinking of a common fool, which cannot take you beyond samsara. The Conjunction of Sun and Moon states: 

"Are these afflictive emotions abandoned? Are they refined away? Are they transformed? Are they allowed to become calm naturally? Are they tamed by antidotes that are specific to each one? Does one let them play themselves out as they will? Are they in themselves one's true nature? Or are they naturally freed by themselves? O Teacher, I pray that you tell me." 

Then Vajradhara issued this proclamation: 
"Ah! Listen, great sage! Listen! 
These are the words I have spoken: 
These emotions dwell in the mindstreams of all ordinary beings. 
They bind one to samsara. 
If supreme bliss itself is obscured, they have not been eliminated. 
If they are not realized in their suchness, they occur as naturally as the shadow that follows a yogin's body, and so they cannot be abandoned even if one tries to abandon them. 
Similarly, they cannot be refined away by one's attempts to do so. 
Nor can they be changed by one's attempts to transform them. 
One can only realize their unchanging heart essence; one cannot refine away or change them, for they are like an outcropping of crystal or a piece of turquoise. 
Yogins examine them to experience their innately pure nature. 
Similarly, they are not a state of quiescence. 
One can understand them only with profound insight through direct perception; one cannot destroy them, for they are like Sumeru, the most majestic mountain. 
They cannot be freed with antidotes. 
Without understanding the natural purity that is unsought, it is as though one were stirring water while wanting to clarify it; it will not become clearer and clearer. 
These emotions, moreover, are not themselves one's true nature. 
Without an understanding of the relaxed way in which awareness's own manifestations are perceived, one's perceptions are like those of a common fool. 
One's obsessions have not been eliminated."
 

That is to say, although efforts are made in other spiritual approaches, they are incapable of purifying afflictive emotions. In the ati approach, emotions are purified within basic space without being renounced, through the key point of realizing that self-knowing awareness is unobstructed. In this approach, freedom comes about through the effortful cultivation of the visions of togal, which manifest in a natural state of rest. Alternatively, freedom comes about effortlessly through the realization of trekcho, the bare state of naturally free awareness. However, afflictive emotions are not freed by bare awareness-they themselves are freed by themselves, like a snake that has tied itself into a knot. This crucial point-that afflictive emotions are freed in and of themselves as they arise-comes down to not forgetting to realize bare awareness; and so, though it seems that awareness frees afflictive emotions, this is not actually the case. The same tantra states: 

"Ah! Listen again, 0 sage! 
People have two kinds of minds-there are those who are involved in effort and those who are not. 
Those involved in effort rest in their natural state. 
The full measure of familiarity with visionary experience ensures that the pure visions of timeless awareness arise naturally everywhere, within and without. 
These circumstances ensure that afflictive emotions do not occur. 
Or as much as they do occur, they are freed in their own place as one rests in the natural state. 
Therefore, these are the visions of a yogin. 
The situation for those who are not involved in effort is as follows:
Naturally freed in and of themselves, afflictive emotions are themselves naturally free just as they are. 
Like iron cutting iron or stone breaking stone, they are their own greatest antidote. 
Anyone with such familiarity will, having realized natural great perfection, discover its implications by resting without seeking anything.
Supreme bliss unfolds without being cultivated in meditation. 
One directly experiences it as one's very nature. 
Though someone who encounters it may have committed harmful actions with immediate consequences, that person will be freed by becoming familiar with it. 
Of this there is no doubt-I swear it!"




Very Zen, and reminds me of one of the books I'm reading atm; 'John Blofeld; Hui Hai - The Zen Teaching of Hui Hai on Sudden Illumination', I'll post an excerpt later.


Edited by spinvis (01/25/24 05:17 PM)


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28635479 - 01/26/24 10:21 AM (1 day, 9 hours ago)

Buddhist texts can be confusing because sometimes 'mind' refers to all inclusive awareness (which includes the body) and sometimes to thought


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Re: Agency, Who is the doer? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28635491 - 01/26/24 10:33 AM (1 day, 9 hours ago)

Haha maybe we should write our own, in modern terminology. Problem solved.

Was typing a reply and saw Freedom responded already. Thanks!

Idries Shah - The Sufis;
Quote:

There are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.




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