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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? * 6
    #28604049 - 12/31/23 01:10 AM (28 days, 7 hours ago)

One of the things that represents real potential in cannabis is that it permits one to see a brand new way of viewing. It creates perspective shift.

In all the images I've seen in culture, from it as a party drug, a medicine, a relaxing agent or sleep aid, a stimulant or creativity aid, even as 'recreation' or 'enjoyment' - in none of these images do I see the most striking aspect, which is the change of mind.

I think if cannabis was approached more mystically, it may be less liable to be abused - because one might use it in such a way that one takes more care and concern for what they are experiencing, that they see it as something sacred.

Cannabis is sometimes a drug that encourages 'sacralization' - the perception in one's mind of things being more divine or beautiful than ordinary things. It is properly an entheogen. We don't see a discussion on the value of entheogens in general or on the possibility of mind expansion in the halls of congress. People mostly discuss it in terms of medical benefits, like how it can help epileptics. And I do think cannabis has that face of a medicine, but the face of it I think shows the most radical potential is the way it can lead towards mystical thoughts and mystical feelings.

The manner of use, the dose, the goal, the mindset most of all have to change depending on how one wants to use the drug. I suggest people try using it in the mystical way, or in the way leaning towards whatever it is you hold sacred or dear. It does not mean one can't use cannabis with another mindset some other time. But with this mindset, cannabis takes on a character that can reveal insights about mind and soul.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 2
    #28604096 - 12/31/23 03:33 AM (28 days, 4 hours ago)

getting the dose and frequency right can be problematic, but I have had terrific experiences mixing pranayama or anapanasatti and cannabis.

the breath becomes full of light illuminating the body and the room from within, and any chakkra or mudra being observed seems to buzz with delight and crackling energetic forms.

even more so with some lysergic or shroomy base.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28604408 - 12/31/23 09:55 AM (27 days, 22 hours ago)

Interesting.

Cannabis is associated with an increase in empathy.
That certainly seems to support the idea that it can facilitate perspective shifts.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28604623 - 12/31/23 01:12 PM (27 days, 19 hours ago)

I found its way easier to experience the jhana states with cannabis

have you tried meditating with it?


Edited by Freedom (12/31/23 01:16 PM)


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28604698 - 12/31/23 02:56 PM (27 days, 17 hours ago)

Great post.

I totally agree with you on that. I feel like theres a subtleness to the mystical aspect of Cannabis which is why it doesnt show up in Pop culture like the other effects. For me, I have the best mystical experiences with Cannabis when I am deep in Nature.


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28605067 - 12/31/23 07:21 PM (27 days, 13 hours ago)

^ I greatly enjoy watching ripples on the surface of a remote wilderness pond, while buzzing along on the ganj.

When I first got into cannabis as a teenager, I had already starting meditating and so it was natural for me to immediately try meditating while high. I had a sort of "kundalini awakening" over the course of those first few months, and it changed everything. Still processing the results 20 years later.


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 2
    #28605259 - 12/31/23 09:58 PM (27 days, 10 hours ago)

I think the biggest issue with cannabis as an Entheogen is that it is so easy to default to it as purely pleasureable. And because of that it’s easy to use it as a crutch for suffering.

I feel cannabis takes a lot more mastery to utilize in an Entheogenic way. Mushrooms, for example, just force you there. So while they are undoubtedly more intense, it seems far less skill is needed to make it a metaphysical experience with mushrooms. I think it would be beneficial if we had more sacred cannabis use (and more settings/retreats to promote it)


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Socrateshroom] * 1
    #28605316 - 01/01/24 12:00 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago)

Going to play devils advocate here... unpopular opinion.

In my experience with cannabis I didn't find it particularly entheogenic, and mystical only in the sense that it warped my perception. I never really felt that it brought me closer to God or myself in an significant way, though it did allow me to tap into creativity that was otherwise hard to tap otherwise.

I known for Rastas and other groups it's a sacrament, but the cynic in me says it's a type of self illusion. Though I guess all mystical states could be deemed as such. When I compare it with psychedelics where the presence of sacred and feeling of oneness seems perfectly natural, it just doesn't have that effect. Just because I'm fucked up doesn't mean it's magic, not to me at least. It just seems messy, dumbed down, spaced out.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Northerner]
    #28605326 - 01/01/24 12:14 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Going to play devils advocate here... unpopular opinion.

In my experience with cannabis I didn't find it particularly entheogenic, and mystical only in the sense that it warped my perception. I never really felt that it brought me closer to God or myself in an significant way, though it did allow me to tap into creativity that was otherwise hard to tap otherwise.

I known for Rastas and other groups it's a sacrament, but the cynic in me says it's a type of self illusion. Though I guess all mystical states could be deemed as such. When I compare it with psychedelics where the presence of sacred and feeling of oneness seems perfectly natural, it just doesn't have that effect. Just because I'm fucked up doesn't mean it's magic, not to me at least. It just seems messy, dumbed down, spaced out.





You’re probably right. I’ve never had a true entheogenic experience with cannabis, even very “strong” experiences lack that which even mid doses of mushrooms have.

I guess I was being optimistic in its capabilities and assumed I did not have the adequate mastery to use it in that manner.

My experience points to your findings, but something in me feels like there must be something there.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Freedom]
    #28605425 - 01/01/24 05:33 AM (27 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I found its way easier to experience the jhana states with cannabis

have you tried meditating with it?



yes, a lot, however,
while it increases jhana onset speed, it erodes the progress beyond sustained concentration  because it reduces short term memory effects of recent efforts to be calm and observant - this makes it more work for the mind to remain calm and observant.

It is good however for the exercising of "beginner's mind", restarting the meditation over and over which is always of value.

while I love to do it, it is actually intoxicating and that - in a pinch - does not help your associative faculties  calm down when necessary without the jhana onset speed crutch. (nothing is 100% "free"). Sometimes clarity is better than joy.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Northerner]
    #28605480 - 01/01/24 07:36 AM (27 days, 49 minutes ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
In my experience with cannabis I didn't find it particularly entheogenic, and mystical only in the sense that it warped my perception. I never really felt that it brought me closer to God or myself in an significant way, though it did allow me to tap into creativity that was otherwise hard to tap otherwise.



As someone who has used Cannabis for about 30 years now, this has been my experiences as well.
I note that it is associated with increased empathy, but I also have known plenty of people who use it who didn't appear to display much empathy though I think that isn't related to the Cannabis.

I have found Cannabis, at times, to be positively stimulating in regards to creativity in regard to writing, making art and playing music. I'm someone who is very enthusiastic about such effects but I have not found it to be entheogenic.

I also don't like every effect it has.

I've not found Cannabis to be particularly mystical in my experience, but I am interested in hearing others describe their mystical experiences that Cannabis has influenced.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28605493 - 01/01/24 07:59 AM (27 days, 26 minutes ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
getting the dose and frequency right can be problematic, but I have had terrific experiences mixing pranayama or anapanasatti and cannabis.



I think technique is related to this experience and am not sure if someone can experience something like this from Cannabis without that kind of meditative approach coordinating mind, body and breath.

And these type of techniques are effective without Cannabis, so I think it can be an aide to using them but that it isn't the active ingredient in the experience. Still I agree that Cannabis can enhance numerous experiences in a positive way.

Some people could have spontaneous energy-work experiences, so to speak from Cannabis. It has not been my experience but I'm likely atypical in more than one regard.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Has culture downplayed the mystical aspect of cannabis? [Re: Northerner] * 3
    #28611166 - 01/06/24 03:04 AM (22 days, 5 hours ago)

In regards to some not feeling they experienced anything mystical to it: that is valid too. I'm sure experiences are different, though mine in particular have leaned in that direction.

I think mysticism is about mindset and what one infuses into an experience. If someone wanted to treat LSD as a party drug, they probably could - if that was their entire mindset, they could actively suppress and work against any spiritual insights. This is the tactic that is in fact used by some cannabis users, merely in the style of use and attitude around it.

So let me make the case for cannabis as an entheogen. What is the cannabis experience? I can only say what it is to me. It's a perception of 'a different world'. I think even moreso than with classical psychedelics, I feel cannabis is more capable of evoking the feeling of being transported to another world.

However, regular use diminishes almost all psychedelic effects. And there's nothing wrong with that - if someone wants to use it to feel a bit happier, eat a bit fuller, sleep better, be more patient, that's a fine use of cannabis, but it isn't entheogenic in any way.

But entheogenic use of cannabis would be the traditional Indian use of cannabis edibles, which are specifically brought out on holy festivals such as holi.

Quote:

Northerner said:
I known for Rastas and other groups it's a sacrament, but the cynic in me says it's a type of self illusion. Though I guess all mystical states could be deemed as such. When I compare it with psychedelics where the presence of sacred and feeling of oneness seems perfectly natural, it just doesn't have that effect. Just because I'm fucked up doesn't mean it's magic, not to me at least. It just seems messy, dumbed down, spaced out.




I agree with you actually - especially the line 'I guess all mystical states could be deemed as such'. I think mysticism is in the eye of the beholder as it were, and it is partly a specific way of thinking about drugs and drug experiences. It is an approach, and one that can be adopted intentionally. So one possibility is that cannabis can become mystic when used in a certain way or with a certain mindset. Perhaps you don't respond to that mindset, but it is possible others do.

For me, cannabis seems to tickle a bone in my thoughts that seems very close to the infinite. And the euphoria in cannabis experience seems to have a certain power to show me pictures of my life or my situation or my problems that clarify them. However, it's not straight-forward - as I sometimes experience a gradual movement from haziness to clarity, where I might experience a peak where I feel I things are overwhelming or things appear confused or disoriented - things move outside their regular place - and then as things normalize, my mind replaces this disorder or confusion with a clarity that comes as a result of the look at the multiple perspectives.

I'm suggesting this way of looking at cannabis: what if cannabis could be approached in a goal-oriented way, of seeking to better understand the nature of the mind, or at least of one's own mind, by its ability to confuse? Because, the thing about cannabis' confusion is the extremely persistent and durable return to normality. Barring rare HPPD, which isn't often associated with cannabis, it will always drop you back into the spot you were in before. As a result, cannabis use can be seen as a journey through the mind, exploring the world of cannabis and returning to the regular world with insights that result from the comparison. Hopping between worlds, in other words - that each time, by taking the drug and in some sense putting a disrupting chemical in there, one can upend one's way of thinking and seek to create a temporary disorder, for the purpose of restoring a new better order.

I am not advocating for the drug nor am I saying it is always such and such a way. I am just describing a particular way of conceptualizing it, one which may change the way it would be used: if it was no longer conceived of as a pleasure drug but instead as a drug that does in some sense the opposite, is capable of bringing on hard but useful experiences, then one would use it infrequently. One would plan out the dose carefully, go into it with a plan, get the appropriate setting - just as one does with mushrooms.

I have sometimes used cannabis wrong - at times I have felt addicted. Other times I haven't felt addicted, I've felt I only use it in good ways. I think the intention with which I used it was the main driver of whether my experience was good - as that was what could lead to a regulation of my dose and mindset. Having a specific goal before going in is, for me, the most important way to regulate too much use, use at the wrong times or for the wrong reasons - entheogenic use establishes a specific purpose and also a specific limit to a drug's usefulness.

For me at least, entheogenic experiences occur with 25mg THC. Stronger experiences occur as the dose goes up, but at 100mg or up, the level of memory impairment is great, so one can get insights that they forget, and there's also a problem of a peak that sometimes causes a faster heart-rate, which becomes a bigger problem if one doses high. Best to dose at the lowest dose that causes proper euphoria. For me that would be 25mg, while more than that feels excessive and too intense.

Edibles at these high-enough doses, for me, cause a certain opening in the gateway between this world and an 'other world', which I experience as a different way of feeling or experiencing. It is 'euphoria' as one feels a certain kind of frenzy - however, that does not mean it is always pleasurable, as I often find these experiences to be difficult at their peak. Rarely will I not think about my serious problems of the day in these experiences - I always return to my life in general as a topic - but, of course, these moments of more stern reflection are mixed with moments of other thoughts popping up of a random sort, whatever way impressions strike me. Underneath anything random, for me there's an impression of a goal or mission or thought or insight when I use cannabis in these entheogenic doses. My interpretation is that this results from my brain's ability to restore order from cannabis, and I may be stimulating my brain to make its own defenses to my negative thoughts.

Cannabis, by dissecting one's place in the world, sense of time, could potentially be used as a stimulant to thoughts and thinking. By comparing the cannabis experience to regular experience and seeking to make sense of this difference, I think one would inevitably be led to some insights about mind and world.


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