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OfflineBardy
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28611170 - 01/06/24 03:12 AM (22 days, 5 hours ago)

Good point. If they were just good times they wouldn’t be as good as they are


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28611177 - 01/06/24 03:31 AM (22 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Good point. If they were just good times they wouldn’t be as good as they are




I am in some sense unsure if a 'good times only' psychedelic is possible - or would it cease to be a psychedelic at that point? 'Good times only' would be closer to heroin or some other sedative, that just wipes out one's sharpness entirely and is prone to becoming addictive.

If something made you feel really good and not worry about anything, would you ever not use it? Hence drugs like opiates are addicting.

Psychedelics are characterized by - for the most part - maintaining at least some semblance of one's alertness - one's ability to fear, but also really to plan and organize. Even on the most impairing psychs, there's at least some kind of awareness of what's going on, even if that's awareness of a hyper-reality.

So would a psych that eliminated all the painful aspects of the experience, all the anxiety, be useful or possible?


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OfflineBardy
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Registered: 04/02/14
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28611180 - 01/06/24 03:45 AM (22 days, 4 hours ago)

This is the old “you can’t know the good without the bad” problem

Well it’s not so much a problem as it is a fact I think… maybe there’s someone that disagrees


Edited by Bardy (01/06/24 03:47 AM)


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Offlinetree frog
eats bugs


Registered: 09/14/23
Posts: 443
Loc: lives in trees
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: epilectric]
    #28611300 - 01/06/24 06:30 AM (22 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

epilectric said:
hmm i'm already happy with what we have

but apart from that i agree to the ketamine notions before... something more healthy and beneficial like shrooms with the duration and usability of ketamine and maybe a clear lysergic edge :smile:

ketamine has been dubbed god somewhere in the 90s spiral tribe soundsystem rave scene. but it is too hard physically. something with that round god factor, just healthier.

with intricate fractals forming from the center but always in shape and control. clearheaded like lucy but with the flesh of shrooms and the reliability of ketamine :smile:




If you don't mind a long trip, Ibogaine is a psychedelic tryptamine with disassociative action like K.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/06/24 07:21 AM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Northerner]
    #28611333 - 01/06/24 07:07 AM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Imagine for a moment you have the power of the universe and you could create the perfect psychedelic. What would it be like?




A drug that never requires a sitter for the user.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: tree frog]
    #28611335 - 01/06/24 07:08 AM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

How dangerous is it? Because I’ve kinda been scared off of that one


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Offlinetree frog
eats bugs


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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28611348 - 01/06/24 07:27 AM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
How dangerous is it? Because I’ve kinda been scared off of that one




It's relatively safe for people that don't have heart conditions and aren't on other psychiatric medications.  Grapefruit juice should be avoided as it interferes with the livers ability to process ibogaine.

It's not as safe as mushrooms or LSD and should be used with as much caution as ketamine as far as dose.  Which can be difficult when using plants vs pure chemicals.

I haven't personally taken it but I know people in the harm reduction community who have used it to help with opiod addiction and have never heard of anyone dying or needing to be hospitalized.

So, I guess I'm saying it's safe if you trust the person giving it to you to know how potent their plants are and to give you an appropriate dose.  And, as I said before, if you don't have a heart condition and aren't on other medications that could interact with it.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,528
Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Nillion]
    #28611580 - 01/06/24 10:51 AM (21 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Nillion said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
Imagine for a moment you have the power of the universe and you could create the perfect psychedelic. What would it be like?




A drug that never requires a sitter for the user.



this would imply that the drug lacked the "break through" qualities that do frequently require a sitter


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28611626 - 01/06/24 11:26 AM (21 days, 21 hours ago)

Right?

It was actually the last line in the following:

I’d want a drug that is absolutely safe, never terrifying or overwhelming or able to facilitate a sense of panic or discomfort, that has no negative side effects in anyone. 

I’d want the substance to elicit empathy, to increase tactile and sensory awareness and perceptive ability, to allow synaesthesia so that music can be seen and other senses mixed as well, able to instill a cosmic sense of oneness at even relatively low doses and the ability to allow individuals to explore the infinite kaleidoscopic playground where limits are set by imagination alone, at higher doses.  All in a way where people explore such worlds safely as they sit or lie and breathe, rather than wandering into traffic or falling into water. And the line I posted as a comment went right here where this line is.

I think the idea is to maximize benefit and reward while minimizing risk and adversity. My ideal psychedelic is safe and useful, though most psychedelics are safe and useful, in my opinion, when their use is approached responsibly.


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Offlinetregar
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28611882 - 01/06/24 03:44 PM (21 days, 16 hours ago)

IMHO, mescaline is perfect, if only it grew like mushrooms :smile: Over a lifetime, have consumed cactus tea at least 150 times plus, love, love.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: tregar] * 3
    #28612490 - 01/07/24 01:15 AM (21 days, 7 hours ago)

For me the ultimate psychedelic would be something akin to DMT, but without the fear and derealization. A perfect symphony of psychedelic landscapes and scenarios, with simple reintegration.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Northerner] * 3
    #28612578 - 01/07/24 04:39 AM (21 days, 3 hours ago)

Mushrooms without anxiety


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: Northerner]
    #28613528 - 01/08/24 12:31 AM (20 days, 8 hours ago)

LSD but with the emotions and depth of mushrooms, and zero anxiety and other bad unwanted effects even at high doses. Plus it would reliably cause that incredible inspiration and insight that only rarely occurs in normal psychedelics.



However, there is one other idea I want to bring up:

This is something I have seriously thought about ever since the first time I tried lysergamides:

I want the lysergic part of LSD, without the psychedelic part. A pure lysergic that is not a psychedelic.

I don't know if it's possible to separate the two, but to me it has always felt like lysergamides have a totally separate action that is different from their psychedelic effects. Like there are uniquely lysergic hallucinations, uniquely lysergic feelings, and uniquely lysergic ideas. It's always felt like two drugs in one to me: one a psychedelic and one something else. I honestly wish there was serious medical research into this subject, because I would bet money that you could separate the two effects.


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Offlinetree frog
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Registered: 09/14/23
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #28613674 - 01/08/24 05:59 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago)

There has been some pretty serious research on LSD receptor binding.

Here's a list of the receptor sites it hits in decreasing order of selectivity.

LSD: 4.00 5ht1b, 3.77 5ht7, 3.75 5ht6, 3.73 5ht1a, 3.70 5ht1d, 3.64 5ht5a, 3.54 5ht2a, 3.16 D3, 3.11 5ht2b, 3.11 5ht2c, 2.93 Alpha2A, 2.62 5ht1e, 2.55 D2, 2.39 D4, 2.34 D1, 2.05 D5, 1.54 Alpha1A, 1.40 H1, 1.39 Beta1, 1.05 Beta2, 0.65 Alpha1B

And this is a similar, non-psychedelic drug used to treat parkinson's ran in the same paper.

lisuride: 4.00 5ht1a, 3.88 Alpha2C, 3.78 Alpha2B, 3.22 Alpha2A, 3.01 5ht2b, 2.99 5ht5a, 2.90 D4, 2.74 5ht2a, 2.65 D2, 2.64 5ht7, 2.61 5ht6, 2.56 Beta1, 2.27 5ht1b, 2.09 Alpha1A, 1.93 Beta2, 1.83 5ht1e, 1.59 D5, 1.42 H2, 1.34 D3, 1.08 Alpha1B

LSD has a much stronger action on a lot of 5ht receptors (serotonin).  Both actually have action at 5ht2a (thought of as the classical psychedelic receptor) thought lisurides binding here is quite a bit lower (meaning it will mostly bind to other receptors, and with it's strong action on adrenaline receptors and little affinity for other serotonin receptors, you're likely to be having a really bad time before you start tripping).

Both bind to a lot of other receptors.  D is dopamine.  Alpha and Beta are adrenal receptors.  The numbers are specific receptor subtypes.

Here's DMT and Psilocybin just for fun.

DMT: 4.00 5ht7, 3.97 5ht1d, 3.91 5ht2b, 3.53 Alpha2B, 3.53 Alpha2C, 3.51 D1, 3.42 5ht2c, 3.28 5ht1e, 3.25 5ht6, 3.16 5ht5a, 3.13 Imidazoline1, 2.95 Alpha1B, 2.75 Alpha2A, 2.70 Alpha1A, 2.58 5ht2a, 2.37 SERT, 2.23 Sigma1

Not sure about Imidazoline, but SERT is the serotonin reuptake transporter.  SSRIs target this.  Sigma we're still trying to understand.  But it shows up in a few types of disassociatives and I think might be responsible for the out of body experiences people have on DMT and PCP etc.

Psilocin: 4.00 5ht2b, 3.40 5ht1d, 3.37 D1, 3.03 5ht1e, 2.88 5ht1a, 2.83 5ht5a, 2.82 5ht7, 2.82 5ht6, 2.67 D3, 2.52 5ht2c, 2.19 5ht1b, 2.14 5ht2a, 1.77 Imidazoline1, 1.74 SERT, 1.57 Alpha2B, 1.36 Alpha2A, 1.03 Alpha2C

Primarily serotonin.  SERT and Imidazoline show up again.  Adrenal A but not B. Dopamine action at fewer sites than LSD.

Original paper.  And it is pretty outdated but still very useful.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814854/

edit:  the tldr version is LSD has a lot of action at dopamine sites other psychedelics don't.  Dopamine is stimulating but it's primarily the reward circuit for learning.  It gives you the sense of having epiphinies.  The novel nature of having the serotonin system triggered in such a way means you probably are having some actual epiphinies too.

The first time I smoked crystal meth I felt I was having a lot of epiphenies, they turned out to be bullshit.  My point here is that dopamine is that 'sense' of aha!  It's not the aha (or novel thing) itself.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/08/24 06:32 AM)


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: tree frog]
    #28613680 - 01/08/24 06:02 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago)

2CB is perfect :awedance:

Duration - effects - can be snorted - museum dose is perfect etc..


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Offlinetree frog
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Registered: 09/14/23
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28613703 - 01/08/24 06:34 AM (20 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
2CB is perfect :awedance:

Duration - effects - can be snorted - museum dose is perfect etc..




It's to perfect for me lol

Only psychedelic my ego fell in love with and I gave away due to excessive use.

I'd love to take it again sometime with my current gf though.  I think it would be a blast.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/08/24 06:35 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: tree frog]
    #28613734 - 01/08/24 07:03 AM (20 days, 1 hour ago)

I never found 2cb, came around to RC's too late.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Onlineepilectric
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28613770 - 01/08/24 07:47 AM (20 days, 50 minutes ago)

you're not missing out on anything i think! i always found it inferior to other psychs, with more physical side effects (nausea, phenethylamine heartrate)

but as i said before, ketamine would really suit your mind.. it has this primordial empty space...


--------------------
i :heartpump: shroomery

https://soundcloud.com/cyberhops/tracks


Edited by epilectric (01/08/24 07:51 AM)


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614825 - 01/09/24 05:44 AM (19 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I never found 2cb, came around to RC's too late.




I snagged some off the original silk road when it was a thing otherwise I would have missed it too.  Got a lot out of 2c-e around that same time though the body load was like, btw, you're dying every second of every day.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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OfflineTyperwritermonky
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Registered: 01/19/12
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Re: If you cold design the perfect psychedelic? *DELETED* [Re: tree frog]
    #28615301 - 01/09/24 01:54 PM (18 days, 18 hours ago)

Post deleted by Typerwritermonky

Reason for deletion: friend deleting his recent posts for safety


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