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Northerner
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Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. 11
#28606490 - 01/01/24 09:37 PM (26 days, 17 hours ago) |
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It may seem like being tough on crime would deter people from committing crimes, but in a forum like this where the vast majority of us are "criminals" because of our lifestyle choices and that it doesn't deter us at all, it should be easier to understand the greater implications of why being "tough on crime" harms us all.
First... People don't want to be thieves, drug addicts and disorderly people. People want to feel loved, safe and secure. It's the most disadvantaged, traumatised and uneducated who end up being hit with the hardest penalties. By further being tough on them, by refusing access to education, by refusing access to family and friends, by refusing access to skills building work, by denormalizing and holding in cells like animals we make the situation for these people even worse.
When they get out they now have no friends or family left, no job, no money, no education, no skills and have been held like an animal for years whilst being fed the poorest of food in violent situations... then noone even wants to give them a job or a place to live... and no surprise, tne recidivism rates are extraordinarily high.
Sure the war on drugs has slightly worsened the situation, along with privatised prisons, but these aren't the true problem. The problem is violence. The lunacy that perpetuating violence on people who have broken the law will somehow make them good people is truly insane. Does that work with dogs? Why the hell do lawmakers think that will work with people? Why do people vote for lawmakers who claim that they are going to create suffering and violence on people by being "tough on crime", when in time those same people are going to be our neighbours and community members?
US prison guards experience PTSD at a higher rate than the military. This is an indicator of how bad it really is, and where the system is truly broken.
It's easy to blame criminals for being bad, but it's even harder to deny the responsibility our society has for stomping them into the ground and making them what they are whilst providing no real way to get out. A terrible cost financially and socially, just because it sounds good to people who don't really consider what the implications are of harming their own communities for revenge.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606512 - 01/01/24 10:01 PM (26 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I think the city should open up more soup kitchens to help folks so that way they won't have to do crime in the first place
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Northerner
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Education and integration is the way to lift people out of poverty and desperation. A full belly only last a few hours, knowledge and skills lasts a lifetime.
"About 75% of State prison inmates, almost 59% of Federal inmates, and 69% of jail inmates did not complete high school"
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf
People might think it unfair that people in prison would get free education and even free college, but the reality is that that is a much cheaper way of fixing the problem than keeping them in prison. At some point people need to realise that violence does not solve the issue, that it only makes it worse. That by lifting those who have made mistakes up and giving them a fresh start we can save a whole generation after them from a similar fate, instead of plunging them into poverty and desperation which just perpetuates the cycle.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606555 - 01/02/24 12:06 AM (26 days, 14 hours ago) |
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I meant soup for the soul
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606562 - 01/02/24 12:19 AM (26 days, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:US prison guards experience PTSD at a higher rate than the military.
No shit. The vast majority of US military personnel hold non-combative domestic occupations, of course a prison CO at FMC Fort Worth is more likely to experience PTSD than a janitor at Forth Worth airbase.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28606573 - 01/02/24 12:50 AM (26 days, 14 hours ago) |
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PTSD rates in prison guards is 35-50%, compared to 5-20% of deployed service people.
Prison guards take their own lives at twice the rate of the general public and police officers.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606580 - 01/02/24 01:17 AM (26 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Can't a lot of prisoners read books if they want to? Like they're available in the prison?
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thirtygoats

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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606583 - 01/02/24 01:19 AM (26 days, 13 hours ago) |
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When the government is wrong about something, they don't admit it or do anything that respectable people would do. They just try to convince everyone that the truth is a lie. Government = A bunch of ugly, unhealthy, fat, stupid, ignorant, psychopathic retards. They're worse than the criminals in society. In this news article about 4 teens using HHC (Basically another cannabinoid found in Cannabis) at school and then requiring "medical treatment" because of it, they said that "in order to get high from the product, a large amount of it must be consumed, leading to many people taking too much and suffering side effects" which couldn't be further from the truth.
I bought 10 grams of pure HHC distillate before, and to get high, I only needed an utterly TINY piece of the distillate to get... well, not THAT high, but I was definitely high and could get super absorbed into playing a game on the computer and feel really good for probably maybe 30 minutes... just from that tiny piece, which created a huge hit, and the coughing was probably the worst I've ever experienced from smoking anything. I mean I've smoked H off foil during my addiction over 2 years ago, and I didn't cough even once through the whole session of smoking the H, so I don't really know why the HHC made me cough. I was using a pretty big torch to heat a glass nail and do that whole thing with the cool bong setup. It must have been the way the smoke was produced or something along those lines... because this stuff was pure HHC... nothing else in it that would be poisonous to my lungs and cause me to uncontrollably cough for like an hour, worse than when I had a cough when I was sick.
Anyway, that 10 grams of pure HHC lasted me like 2 months. When I read that article, I felt like the government is a bunch of braindead fools who are addicted to bullshit that makes them weak and unhealthy and unable to understand anything, because it's very likely that HHC would get banned because some young people don't understand drugs, therefore the people who can use drugs responsibly have to deal with not being able to get any drugs because of those idiots, so then society just gets worse and worse, everyone becoming dumber, unhealthier, etc., all thinking like animals.
Also, let's just ignore the big elephant in the room and try to ignore the fact that the current generation invented artificial intelligence in the middle of a pandemic, a drug epidemic, and all kinds of crazy bullshit going on, and artificial intelligence is supposed to be as big of an invention as like electricity (felt kinda dumb when I said we "invented" electricity, but then not so dumb when I googled "greatest inventions" and "Electricity" was the first one on the list) like it's going to change the whole world completely for the better. This generation, not the war-obsessed generation, not the last few generations that always complain about how this generation doesn't contribute and shit like that.
Edited by thirtygoats (01/02/24 01:51 AM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: thirtygoats] 1
#28606585 - 01/02/24 01:29 AM (26 days, 13 hours ago) |
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Well thats insane and completely untrue. Don't know many criminals do you? Anyway where I live we went super soft on crime and were finding out that doesn't really workout either. Obviously end the drug war and stuff but we can't just let criminal people just do whatever they want and get off Scottish free hurting folks
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Northerner
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If you think anything I have said is untrue look it up for yourself. I didn't rewrite the whole internet.
1 in 20 US citizens are incarcerated in their lives, 1 in 7 white men, 1 in 4 black men, you are literally surrounded by criminals, all the time, every day.
Rehabilitation is not soft on crime, it's just not perpetuating the cycle of violence. Not the same thing.
If being tough on crime works why are there so many criminals? Why is the recidivism rate 78% over 7 years? Do you really believe American citizens are just generally much worse people than anyone else in the whole world?
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said: Can't a lot of prisoners read books if they want to? Like they're available in the prison?
Yeah but that's not education, it's not a way to step up and be able to offer something of value, earn a living, make a life, be a productive part of society with a real future.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 6
#28606606 - 01/02/24 03:09 AM (26 days, 11 hours ago) |
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I know this topic is heady and difficult, but the only reason I'm not one of those with a destroyed life, broken family, no opportunity, psychological scars and living in poverty is because I'm lucky. In previous times in my life I've posessed enough drugs for the system to decide that I should no longer have a future... But the implication of me having nothing ever again would be that I would have nothing to lose. I would have gone from a person who likes to get harmlessly fucked up to being a danger to everyone around me out of pure desperation.
That could have been you. And even worse imagine if that was your parents who now can only ever provide you with the foundation of destroyed life, broken family, psychological scars, resentment and poverty... with no unexceptional way out.
Beware of politicians who promise you tough on crime, they promise brutality so cruel that it makes healthy people sick just to witness it. Terrible violence and depravity against your fellow citizens, most of them who just made a mistake and were never truly a threat to you and yours. The twisted irony being that over time all it does is make crime worse.
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mongo lloyd
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606610 - 01/02/24 03:22 AM (26 days, 11 hours ago) |
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Don't do the crime if you can't do the time
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Milleresque
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: mongo lloyd] 4
#28606615 - 01/02/24 03:50 AM (26 days, 11 hours ago) |
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^says someone posting on shroomery.
Ever have a psychedelic experience on public or shared land “mongo”?
Northerner, terrific topic mate. “Drug related violence”—that nebulous and top tier attractant for piraña journalists; the whole landscape of gun violence, kidnapping, backstabbing, paranoia, and all manner of adrenalised lunacy… ….the root cause of it is the fact of its prohibition. The laughable war. It has done nothing but propagate and perpetuate generational trauma, stigmatise dependency, demonise the sovereign right to alter one’s own consciousness—not to mention the racial targeting of entire segments of a population, followed once in a strange while by sourcing funds from those countrymen addicted to the drugs you sell them, to pay for the armaments and training of deathsquads in a South American nation.
Tough on crime in the sense of tough on self sovereignty when it comes to substance use creates well, look at our yearbook.
Edited by Milleresque (01/02/24 03:58 AM)
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deucedbi9
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 1
#28606631 - 01/02/24 05:01 AM (26 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: Education and integration is the way to lift people out of poverty and desperation. A full belly only last a few hours, knowledge and skills lasts a lifetime.
"About 75% of State prison inmates, almost 59% of Federal inmates, and 69% of jail inmates did not complete high school"
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf
The level of Dyslexia might have something to do with it. I came across this snippet (short) Yesterday:
I wonder how far something like this might explain why the rate of imprisonment and recidivism in the UK, the highest in Europe, and US, the highest in the western world, is so high.
-------------------- whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows... it's a bugger to cycle in. even though I'm feeling good Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule
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loladoreen


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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said: Can't a lot of prisoners read books if they want to? Like they're available in the prison?
With pages torn out
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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imachavel
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
#28606678 - 01/02/24 06:45 AM (26 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Not much in the name of reform huh?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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loladoreen


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 2
#28606679 - 01/02/24 06:47 AM (26 days, 8 hours ago) |
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I wish I was on my laptop so I could write more freely.
This is a subject I am educated, passionate about. And personal to me. Not only do I work with this population. I became personally affected when my son got in the system. He is currently in jail waiting to go to prison. And I write about 5 people I met through him in prison.
The general public is unaware of the reality of prison. The programs are not accessible. They never have the staff. And few programs.
Prison creates more trauma for people who were traumatized before going in. Creating a cycle.
Drugs in prison are cheaper and more accessible than outside of prison. Many use, I would say the majority. Its an escape and coping mechanism.
I started doing prison reform work when I got a view of the life inside. People were locked down in a cell for 3 days straight without water. Without access to anything.
Our criminal system is to punish not offer rehabilitation. Prison sentences are extremely long for crimes that are side effects of poverty, addiction and lifestyle. Each case is unique but the majority has an underlying tone of not having facts.
Areas that have decriminalized drugs statistically see an increase in use, and crime before seeing the crime and use drop dramatically. Resources available assist with this. Where I live the law passed before the resources became available. Creating problems.
Where I live methadone is available 2 hours away. Shelter is 2 hours away. SUD services are 2 hours away. There are no resources.
The families become victims. Primarily the children. Foster children are sleeping in offices because there's nowhere for them to go. Thats an entire other issue.
People need help not jail/prison. Some need to be incarcerated.
Prison is filled with people suffering from schizophrenia. I was astonished at how many. And don't receive help inside or out.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606684 - 01/02/24 06:50 AM (26 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: PTSD rates in prison guards is 35-50%, compared to 5-20% of deployed service people.
Prison guards take their own lives at twice the rate of the general public and police officers.
My dad was deployed during Vietnam in Germany. Half the kids I went to school with in Japan were there on deployment with their parents. And I'm not sure how prison guards taking their own lives supports your argument.
I grew up with affluent people who could afford to stay out of prison and received educations. Many of them belong in prison.
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imachavel
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen] 1
#28606685 - 01/02/24 06:53 AM (26 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
loladoreen said: I wish I was on my laptop so I could write more freely.
This is a subject I am educated, passionate about. And personal to me. Not only do I work with this population. I became personally affected when my son got in the system. He is currently in jail waiting to go to prison. And I write about 5 people I met through him in prison.
The general public is unaware of the reality of prison. The programs are not accessible. They never have the staff. And few programs.
Prison creates more trauma for people who were traumatized before going in. Creating a cycle.
Drugs in prison are cheaper and more accessible than outside of prison. Many use, I would say the majority. Its an escape and coping mechanism.
I started doing prison reform work when I got a view of the life inside. People were locked down in a cell for 3 days straight without water. Without access to anything.
Our criminal system is to punish not offer rehabilitation. Prison sentences are extremely long for crimes that are side effects of poverty, addiction and lifestyle. Each case is unique but the majority has an underlying tone of not having facts.
Areas that have decriminalized drugs statistically see an increase in use, and crime before seeing the crime and use drop dramatically. Resources available assist with this. Where I live the law passed before the resources became available. Creating problems.
Where I live methadone is available 2 hours away. Shelter is 2 hours away. SUD services are 2 hours away. There are no resources.
The families become victims. Primarily the children. Foster children are sleeping in offices because there's nowhere for them to go. Thats an entire other issue.
People need help not jail/prison. Some need to be incarcerated.
Prison is filled with people suffering from schizophrenia. I was astonished at how many. And don't receive help inside or out.
That sounds like real talk. Some people even create imaginative ideas for prisons under the ocean like Aquacor. Definitely stay away from that place
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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loladoreen


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606713 - 01/02/24 07:36 AM (26 days, 7 hours ago) |
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I just last week had a friend all about a job inside a prison near me. Pay is average but the opportunity appeared inviting. Ive worked in county and tribal jails. Never had an issue. Except watching abuse of CO's to inmates. Ive also worked with sex offenders- had no problems. I called a friend of mine who worked there. She left after her CO supervisor threatened her with sleep with me or I release you to inmates. She said the inmates were fine her fear was always the CO's. She was often trapped and assaulted by them. Stalked outside of work by CO's. I am not interested. I think I am best helping outside. The CO's are predominantly worse than inmates.
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loladoreen


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: imachavel] 1
#28606734 - 01/02/24 07:50 AM (26 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: Not much in the name of reform huh?
Nothing With the exception of GED programs that are not offered to the majority There are prison based dosa but the treatment is different than outside of prison No harm reduction Abstinence based College is offered to long term then based on classification of crimes
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: imachavel]
#28606737 - 01/02/24 07:54 AM (26 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: That sounds like real talk. Some people even create imaginative ideas for prisons under the ocean like Aquacor. Definitely stay away from that place
By all means, put this guy under the ocean: https://www.infostevemyersjackson.org/
He doesn't give a fuck whose life he destroys, whose family he breaks, who he robs of opportunity, or who he scars. He's a thief, he's disorderly. He does it because he wants to, and because he can.
I don't believe drug addicts belong in prison, but being tough on this fella in no way would make society worse and no bullshit statistic in the world is going to change my mind about that.
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loladoreen


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 1
#28606751 - 01/02/24 08:09 AM (26 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Sex crimes disgust me. Hes out. Yet someone who stole a chainsaw is getting years. Bs
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen] 2
#28606805 - 01/02/24 08:51 AM (26 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Exactly.
The argument about being lenient on crime is insane to me because seems we're largely debating fair prison treatment of people who commited imaginary crimes that shouldn't warrant punishment and who don't belong in prison in the first place.
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Ditchdude
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb] 1
#28606829 - 01/02/24 09:33 AM (26 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Then let's release people who've had problematic lives after their sentences are over but have it be legal for them to be descriminated against in the job market and often have their voting rights removed so they can't vote to change unfair laws.
I understand that there is a retribution desire that "feels" right to some. But the numbers don't back it up.
Thank you, Northerner.
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loladoreen


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 1
#28606838 - 01/02/24 09:49 AM (26 days, 5 hours ago) |
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A pet peeve of mine is when people say let em go to jail/prison so they get sober. It is the complete opposite.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606853 - 01/02/24 09:59 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: People might think it unfair that people in prison would get free education and even free college, but the reality is that that is a much cheaper way of fixing the problem than keeping them in prison. At some point people need to realise that violence does not solve the issue, that it only makes it worse. That by lifting those who have made mistakes up and giving them a fresh start we can save a whole generation after them from a similar fate, instead of plunging them into poverty and desperation which just perpetuates the cycle.
I think it would only be unfair for prisoners to get free education/college if non-prisoners can't get free education/college. Otherwise, people are incentivized to commit crimes to get free schooling.
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Ditchdude
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What if we took a little of the corrections money and put it into education? Crazy, I know.
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pointauthority



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606863 - 01/02/24 10:10 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago) |
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The new 2024-2025 FASFA expanded access to Pell Grants, which is cool.
Quote:
Incarcerated students in federal and state penal facilities will regain the ability to receive a Federal Pell Grant (starting with the 2023–24 award year).
Also "ex"-felons (not currently serving) can already apply for Pell Grants I believe.
My college runs a books-for-prisoners program, so there's that. I have heard that the books that people in prison are allowed to read are the ones they want them to read. Is it really true that titles such as The 48 Laws of Power are banned in prisons? Is the goal to keep people unaware of how the penal system subjects them to subordination?
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: pointauthority]
#28606883 - 01/02/24 10:29 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Like I said we've already done all this shit here part of the whole second chance initiatives were sweeping criminal justice and prison reform as well as new programs that target specific issues. The problem is that criminals and urban kids just saw it as nothing else but an invitation to do alot of crime then get out do even more crime. Certain parts of the programs work and were keeping but others definitely didn't at all. I mean he there was one case where some kid had like dozens of charges including violent stuff and multiple car thefts was simpley just let out stole a car went in a police chase then the cops even stopped chasing them and but later on they got spooked by a car that looked like cop car and slammed a family and killed them. That's one of only many such stories. Infact I can't even find that specific story because of all the other stories but that's the one where people were like enough is enough and now we have to argue about changing the laws all over again which will likely take years. As far as drugs in prison go I don't think they are easier and certainly not cheaper to get at all it depends on where your doing time. Some places yeah you can get drugs I have a buddy in a place now where he said "I wouldn't even touch a bag of tea in here" he still can get soups tho
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: pointauthority]
#28606919 - 01/02/24 10:53 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
pointauthority said: The new 2024-2025 FASFA expanded access to Pell Grants, which is cool.
Quote:
Incarcerated students in federal and state penal facilities will regain the ability to receive a Federal Pell Grant (starting with the 2023–24 award year).
Also "ex"-felons (not currently serving) can already apply for Pell Grants I believe.
My college runs a books-for-prisoners program, so there's that. I have heard that the books that people in prison are allowed to read are the ones they want them to read. Is it really true that titles such as The 48 Laws of Power are banned in prisons? Is the goal to keep people unaware of how the penal system subjects them to subordination?
True 48 laws is banned. White supremist use it. They cant get books until out of classification, which often takes months. I know one person was there for 18 months. FAFSA offers up to a bachelors degree for qualifying people.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Like I said we've already done all this shit here part of the whole second chance initiatives were sweeping criminal justice and prison reform as well as new programs that target specific issues. The problem is that criminals and urban kids just saw it as nothing else but an invitation to do alot of crime then get out do even more crime. Certain parts of the programs work and were keeping but others definitely didn't at all. I mean he there was one case where some kid had like dozens of charges including violent stuff and multiple car thefts was simpley just let out stole a car went in a police chase then the cops even stopped chasing them and but later on they got spooked by a car that looked like cop car and slammed a family and killed them. That's one of only many such stories. Infact I can't even find that specific story because of all the other stories but that's the one where people were like enough is enough and now we have to argue about changing the laws all over again which will likely take years. As far as drugs in prison go I don't think they are easier and certainly not cheaper to get at all it depends on where your doing time. Some places yeah you can get drugs I have a buddy in a place now where he said "I wouldn't even touch a bag of tea in here" he still can get soups tho 
You can get high for a soup. Certainly cheaper, a soup is $3 and a bag is $40.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28606942 - 01/02/24 11:15 AM (26 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Dependent on the jail and what they use for security. Some have no drugs, others are filled with them. The one my son is currently in, no drugs. They have a scan device that scans your entire body and all cavities. The one I used to primarily work in was flooded with them.
Different drugs cost different. Subs are big in prison. Not that expensive. Meth is expensive. I had a guy get very deep in debt over meth and barely survived the beating he took due to his debt. He was bad and now has permanent damage.
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viraldrome



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
#28607065 - 01/02/24 12:59 PM (26 days, 2 hours ago) |
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I don't know, my city stopped arresting people for personal amounts of drugs now people smoke fentanyl on the train with impunity.
If I had a choice for no enforcement (ie the way things are now) vs say Saudi Arabia (ie hands getting chopped off) I don't see the advantage to being soft.
People keep saying the drug war doesn't work but there is no opioid epidemic in Korea or Japan or the Philippines. A certain level of draconian old testament justice is a deterrent.
I have no problem doing drugs quietly and discreetly at home, I wouldn't cry if the guy shooting dope in his dick vein in front the daycare got destroyed by the legal system though.
-------------------- Lysergamides I have tried so far: 1P-LSD, 1cP-LSD, ALD-52, AL-LAD, LSZ, ETH-LAD, MIPLA, EIPLA, 1cP-AL-LAD
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607084 - 01/02/24 01:13 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago) |
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I would Its a human being
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Northerner
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: viraldrome] 2
#28607123 - 01/02/24 01:41 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Crime is a social issue in the vast majority of cases. Antisocial behavior not something we can punish and traumatize out of people, that just causes more antisocial behavior.
The number one cause of it is lack of education and opportunity. Like I said right back at the start of this thread... people don't want to be thieves, drug addicts and disorderly people. People want to feel loved, safe and secure. They really do. You, me everyone. We want a home, we want our people, we want food on a plate and the knowledge that if we get up and go to work that that car could be ours, that that watch could be ours, that there is a holiday waiting for us at the end of the year as a reward for all our hard work. That our lives mean something and we are going somewhere.
For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place. It still doesn't solve the problem. Because crime isn't the problem, people and how they feel is the problem.
The financial cost in the US of being hard on crime, when you factor in prisons, courts, police, social services and other infrastructure is currently about a trillion dollars annually. $1,000,000,000,000... every year. And when it's considered that this money is used to crush the poorest and most disadvantaged in society already the insanity becomes even more apparent.
Take a person in prison who has nothing, has no opportunity, no education, no skills, and is in the system because they stole a bunch of stuff or dealt drugs or whatever... force them to act like humans, clean their own rooms and a make their own food, force them to be educated in something and force them to do work that is meaningful. This is more normal than many of these people have ever behaved before. Now if that person misbehaves in prison you have something to take away, so behavior improves. They don't have their freedom still, they can't go see friends or go to a movie or go sit in the park and enjoy nature. They are very much being punished. But when their time is over they know how to care for themselves, they know how to cook for themselves, they have some sort of education, they have a usable skill they can use to get a job. That 78% chance that they are going to be back in prison in 7 years is now significantly lower. The associated costs rearresting and imprisoning them evaporate. It's cheaper for you as a taxpayer, it's better for your community because now there is another taxpayer working with you to live a better life rather than subsisting on whatever they can get. Crime rates drop, drug abuse rates drop, policing pressure drops, court systems become less clogged up, prisons become less overcrowded. This is what rehabilitation looks like.
This isn't imaginary scenario that'll never work. Other countries do this.
Of course there's some sick motherfuckers that need to be kept away from everything with a heartbeat, but that is a tiny minority. The vast majority of people who are in prison are there because they are poor and uneducated and/or made stupid mistakes. Not because they are bad people. "Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


Registered: 03/23/19
Posts: 1,310
Loc: Memory
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607141 - 01/02/24 01:53 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
How very convenient.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607147 - 01/02/24 01:56 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime? Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.
Quote:
Northerner said: "Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.
I wish I lived in the reality you lived in because I see loads of bad people in this world.
--------------------
  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/02/24 01:56 PM)
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


Registered: 03/23/19
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Loc: Memory
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607187 - 01/02/24 02:17 PM (26 days, 42 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: Crime is a social issue in the vast majority of cases.
Yet you chalk your privilage up to 'luck'. Good thing the poor, lesser fortunate, uneducated masses have you looking out for them.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said: For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime? Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.
How much clearer do I have to be about rehabilitation models? I can't write the everything in the whole thread title. I did not suggest at any time that we just start letting criminals go because crime is okay, it's not. This thread is about the perpetuation of violence and how to stop it.
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said: "Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.
I wish I lived in the reality you lived in because I see loads of bad people in this world.
What you see is your judgement of people. You don't see someone's mother, father, son, daughter... you fail to see the human and realise that they have basic emotional needs that have been grossly overlooked that are causing them to behave the way they do.
They are not bad in the sense that they cannot help themselves but kill and rape, they are simply social fuckups who have no base-line normal.
You would think right that less crime means less people in prison? Here's a telling graph. Note the big fall off with the rona at the far right.

https://okpolicy.org/surprisingly-weak-link-incarceration-crime/
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Purple sunset



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Posts: 1,698
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28607193 - 01/02/24 02:19 PM (26 days, 40 minutes ago) |
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Shrooms themselves can be pretty wild
Where I ate a pocket full of really strong shrooms in the city and literally became the craziest person on the street just a few months ago
At a point stumbling around laughing like a insain person. Where all of these addicts thought I was nuts
I've never laughed so hard in my life full out blasting all through the dark in the worst part of the city. under bridges walking around the city for hours on train tracks all through the dark and the streets
It was the most stimulating trip I've ever had and I couldn't stop moving and walking and i was not chilled out. I had a skateboard that made me feel really good and safe. A rushing primitive violence took over where I couldn't stop walking hard with insain energy
Some dude came and asked us for money and I just laughed my head off at him screaming in laughter. Where he took off. It was literally psychotic and probably scary but I didn't care and thought it was the funniest thing ever
A rushing insain psychotic energy took over
Something about walking through grass in the dark on shrooms where it was this place again. It felt like the ocean
Ran like a rapid dog down alleyways laughing and laughing
When the high wore off I was sad and wanted it again
Walking through all these wet boxes in circles covering my face laughing trying to stop
A week later another friend and I went to get a pack of smokes. As he parked his van. Two people came stumbling from behind the store out of the dark from a neighborhood. At first I thought maybe they ate shrooms. Until we seen their faces. The whole store was homeless drug addicts and they were giving each other coins and helping each other out with their faces all rotting
They all thought I was nuts when I ate all those shrooms
After I told my friend who is recovered from meth that I thought they were on shrooms for a minute and he laughed as if shrooms wouldn't make you stumble or crazy. Until I told him about eating that pocket. He was like what It's not something you'd expect from me.
Shrooms can be wild or I think I might be a little bit psychotic myself. I have no idea how many I ate but it was a whole back pocket full randomly one night. Another friend ate some with me and he seen this
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Northerner
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28607199 - 01/02/24 02:23 PM (26 days, 36 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
stubb said:
Quote:
Northerner said: Crime is a social issue in the vast majority of cases.
Yet you chalk your privilage up to 'luck'. Good thing the poor, lesser fortunate, uneducated masses have you looking out for them.

Yeah, loads of my friends went to prison, I'm pretty fkn lucky. I didn't finish junior high even. But probably because I'm "privileged" I should not give a fuck about societal issues. Right?
Maybe I should take on pathetic apathy and antagonism as a primary attitude, try to cut down anyone who brings attention to important issues. Seems like a legitimate standpoint.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


Registered: 03/23/19
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607205 - 01/02/24 02:27 PM (26 days, 32 minutes ago) |
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Apparently. You're the most antagonistic shroomery member on the tip of my tongue, and you clearly have no clue about the issue.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb] 2
#28607207 - 01/02/24 02:28 PM (26 days, 31 minutes ago) |
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Ad hominem... no point, just noise.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



Registered: 09/30/11
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607226 - 01/02/24 02:35 PM (26 days, 24 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said: For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime? Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.
How much clearer do I have to be about rehabilitation models? I can't write the everything in the whole thread title. I did not suggest at any time that we just start letting criminals go because crime is okay, it's not. This thread is about the perpetuation of violence and how to stop it.
Ahhh okay. So you're saying we should be softer on criminals after they've been put in prison, not on arresting criminals for breaking laws, gotcha. Yea that's definitely logical and the right way forward.
Quote:
Northerner said:
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said: "Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.
I wish I lived in the reality you lived in because I see loads of bad people in this world.
What you see is your judgement of people. You don't see someone's mother, father, son, daughter... you fail to see the human and realise that they have basic emotional needs that have been grossly overlooked that are causing them to behave the way they do.
They are not bad in the sense that they cannot help themselves but kill and rape, they are simply social fuckups who have no base-line normal.
You would think right that less crime means less people in prison? Here's a telling graph. Note the big fall off with the rona at the far right.
Well, yea, to label someone as "bad" you have to judge them, right? I don't care if someone is a mother, father, son, or daughter; I look at the person/human and what they do. I understand how humans have needs. I am a human and can relate. People need to stop having sex if they aren't ready to have kids, that would probably curb a lot of crime.
--------------------
  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/02/24 02:36 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 2
#28607231 - 01/02/24 02:36 PM (26 days, 22 minutes ago) |
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I see it as cycles of trauma. Punishment is part of that cycle. I think if we want people to learn to be accountable, we need to offer them opportunities as well.
I think we can keep bank robbers out of banks without punishing them. Or their children.
The drug war is insane. We love drugs, then pretend we hate drugs. So our solution is to buy our drugs from violent gangs and cartels, then we have the police go after the gangs to stop them from selling the drugs we love. Then the police become paranoid because there are violent gang members all around that they have to be on alert for. And of course the drugs we use are far more dangerous because we've decided its bad to buy them from pharmacists or have the FDA make sure they're pure.
I went to jail once, was facing some pretty bad charges. It was amazing, I could see how getting that label, going through the ritual of the court system, and potentially having that on my record would have actually turned me into a criminal. 3 of my careers would have ended in an instant, the volunteering i did would have ended, and if I was convicted, my plan was to become a clandestine chemist since all my legitimate opportunities would have ended.
I think the idea of good and bad people is terrible, it elevates ourselves and puts down others and both sides of that are wrong.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28607236 - 01/02/24 02:38 PM (26 days, 20 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
stubb said:
Quote:
Northerner said:For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
How very convenient. 
I think it is projected that people feel safer with the idea of punishing. Creating a false sense of security . And fulfilling a desire to punish.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said:
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Northerner said: For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.
... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime? Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.
How much clearer do I have to be about rehabilitation models? I can't write the everything in the whole thread title. I did not suggest at any time that we just start letting criminals go because crime is okay, it's not. This thread is about the perpetuation of violence and how to stop it.
Ahhh okay. So you're saying we should be softer on criminals after they've been put in prison, not on arresting criminals for breaking laws, gotcha. Yea that's definitely logical and the right way forward.
It's not about being softer, it's about not perpetuating violence on them. This issue is about our society, not about revenge. At some point we are harming our communities.
I'm not suggesting new things, all the ideas I'm putting forward are well documented.
https://medium.com/@nicholaswinfield93/why-the-tough-on-crime-narrative-needs-to-change-15ed877a6754
https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2023/09/21/being-tough-on-crime-is-easy-but-doesnt-work.html
https://thecrimereport.org/2015/06/09/2015-06-why-tough-on-crime-failed/
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/failure-get-tough-crime-policy
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime
There's pages and pages of this stuff on Google, I just grabbed a few links, it's well known. Yet somehow the mindset of people is so hard to change on this topic.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607262 - 01/02/24 03:03 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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We need more resources, education, and assist low income families. There are so many mentally ill people incarcerated. And never get treatment.
Edited by loladoreen (01/02/24 03:03 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607267 - 01/02/24 03:04 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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We've dehumanized so many people.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607268 - 01/02/24 03:05 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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SOOOOOOOOO many people.
One of the things I tell my grandsons when someone says bad, bad people or bad kid. People do bad things, they are not bad.
Do I 100% believe there are no bad people? No I think they are a very very small percentage.
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Northerner
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 3
#28607279 - 01/02/24 03:11 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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And apologies for seeming a bit ranty, you guys know I can get like that when I get on a topic I feel strongly about. It's because I care, I really care, about you guys, my community, everyone, and severe injustices like this really rile me up.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
#28607282 - 01/02/24 03:13 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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I like to make friends with people at the 'edges' because part of the problem is they are so often excluded from the rest of society.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607285 - 01/02/24 03:16 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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That is SO true!!!!!! When I was interning some of the people at my internship would treat the people that came into see me like they had leprosy. Like addiction was a contagious disease. Or mental health was contagious. One girl kept saying we are going to get robbed. WTF 20+ years and I have never been robbed or harmed by someone I helped that I work with. It is disgusting how they are treated. And the crazy part is ... they are daily drinkers but that is more socially acceptable... the hypocrisy is real
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stubb
Dahg Rastubfari


Registered: 03/23/19
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607287 - 01/02/24 03:17 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: Ad hominem... no point, just noise. 
You're absolutely right, no point other than that I think you're a sanctimonious asshole. Merely my opinion. "No skin off my cult", as nate would say.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



Registered: 09/30/11
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 2
#28607292 - 01/02/24 03:22 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: And apologies for seeming a bit ranty, you guys know I can get like that when I get on a topic I feel strongly about. It's because I care, I really care, about you guys, my community, everyone, and severe injustices like this really rile me up. 
  Your passion on this subject is respectable.     
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  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607298 - 01/02/24 03:30 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Sincerely, very respectable. It is respectable to reply with grace and intelligence. Shows who you are as a person. I appreciate a good conversation.
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theRealrollforever
I DID-DENT



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28607414 - 01/02/24 04:50 PM (25 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
stubb said:
Quote:
Northerner said: Ad hominem... no point, just noise. 
You're absolutely right, no point other than that I think you're a sanctimonious asshole. Merely my opinion. "No skin off my cult", as nate would say. 
You are really arrogant and holier than thou. It’s always the morons who registered in the last 5 years who think they’ve “understood it”.
Words of advice for topics like this? Don’t be contrarian and insulting when you can’t even provide an alternative solution or adequate response other than “lulz, would never work,” to the topic. Fuckin idiot
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607418 - 01/02/24 04:54 PM (25 days, 22 hours ago) |
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One of the most repetitive things I did was try to find housing for just released prisoners. Released and nowhere to go and no one will take them.... but the trap house will take them. A few slept on the streets instead of going back to their old environment. When it got below zero, I am sure they went back to stay alive. It is a very difficult cycle to break.
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theRealrollforever
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb]
#28607420 - 01/02/24 04:55 PM (25 days, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
stubb said: Exactly.
The argument about being lenient on crime is insane to me because seems we're largely debating fair prison treatment of people who commited imaginary crimes that shouldn't warrant punishment and who don't belong in prison in the first place. 
This response solidifies how simple your mind is. This is not the topic, it’s not about “imaginary crimes.”
It also isn’t in anyway suggesting we rehab serial rapists and murderers. Is stealing imaginary? No it’s not. Should it be legal? No it shouldn’t. Is there a difference between a hungry unskilled person stealing stuff for food and rent and a sociopath who steals millions in pensions and benefits? Big time, but we let the rich fucks off while “being tough on crime” so morons like you can feel vindicated when you read a news story about a person you’ve never met doing something you weren’t there to witness
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607429 - 01/02/24 05:05 PM (25 days, 21 hours ago) |
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The people who get arrested are typically not in the higher income bracket. NOT because they don't commit crimes. THEY DO They don't get arrested for them as much and their sentences are shorter.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
#28607962 - 01/03/24 04:03 AM (25 days, 10 hours ago) |
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The other thing that has come through tough on crime policies is an ending to conjugal visits. Really these visits aren't about sex but maintaining family bonds. In these visits children sit with their parents and play games and talk, like normal people. Marriages stay alive, important connections are maintained.
The person has lost their freedom already, is it really necessary to remove their family too?
By removing this small glimmer of humanity the system destroys families. The damage done is intergenerational. Children are harmed, partners are harmed, they are forced to move on with life and forget their loved one in complete absentia. For all intents and purposes they might as well be dead. It's incredibly cruel to make children's parents dead to them.
Also this small privilege compels good behaviour whilst in prison. It could be taken away and for many it can be the only thing that sees them through their punishment. Their tiny light of hope in a long dark tunnel. It's a powerful motivator in personal reform.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28608030 - 01/03/24 06:32 AM (25 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Restorative justice seems like a better approach
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 3
#28610329 - 01/05/24 10:39 AM (23 days, 4 hours ago) |
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While the headline title for this thread is a bit misleading, the intended message behind its primary content is spot on.
I have no problem with the justice system restricting the freedom of individuals who have severely or repeatedly harmed others. I nevertheless find it heartbreaking that there is such an undeniable lack of rehabilitative services and productive structure within the "correctional" system. There is little to no emphasis/action on training for corrective behavior that would in turn help reintegrate a convicted law breaker back into society in a productive and positive way.
This dovetails into major issues with capitalistic for-profit prison systems and the culture they create; one that benefits from high rates of incarceration and sustained recidivism. If people are making money locking other people up, where is the incentive to spend money on programs to improve behavior that could potentially reduce the prison population and in turn cut profitability even further?
The whole thing is disgusting, and I totally share the dejection and outrage at the current state of affairs.
Nevertheless, there are glimmers of hope...
Click here for a nice little mini-documentary on a prison on South America that profiles one such productive prison population. Although the guardrails at this particular institution are exceptionally loose, the story is inspiring.
And here is a short profile on Norway's reformed prison system, that focuses on the idea that taking away someone's freedom with regard to being with their family and having the ability to choose where to go on their own, is the punishment, and that the rest of life in prison should more or less resemble life outside of prison, so that released prisoners will already be conditioned to handle a normal life.
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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ManianFH
living in perverty



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28610345 - 01/05/24 10:59 AM (23 days, 4 hours ago) |
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100% Geo - for profit prisons are a kind of societal negative feedback loop, but in the worst possible way. I suppose this is something that could be changed via legislation but I am not sure how difficult that would be given the roots of our current system.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28610408 - 01/05/24 11:39 AM (23 days, 3 hours ago) |
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There is a nuanced, hairsplitting discussion, on what is lawful -- as in commonlaw -- vs. what is legal -- as in legalese, legalitic.
I think it is possible for someone to be minding his own business and be subjected acts of piracy.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: durian_2008]
#28610412 - 01/05/24 11:43 AM (23 days, 3 hours ago) |
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One of the ways not to be subject to 'broken window policing'...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_law Don't break any "ugly laws". Insert New Year's Resolution, here. Quick. Before you look like that wildabeest with a gimp.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28610831 - 01/05/24 05:45 PM (22 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
geokills said: While the headline title for this thread is a bit misleading, the intended message behind its primary content is spot on.
It wasn't trying to mislead, it was highlighting "tough on crime" policies being espoused by politicians. Hence the inverted commas.
I'm thankful that you fully understood what I'm trying to bring attention to. In particular the system in Norway. At around the same time as Norway implemented their rehabilitative prison system the US introduced "tough on crime" (literally as a political stance). Both countries had very similar crime statistics at the time, but the outcome of the different approaches is night and day.
I think the real question now comes down to how do people go about changing these policies. Statistics show that in election years DA's and Governers ramp up with harsher sentences and higher incarceration rates to show that they are tough on crime, in a bid to win popularity. 40 years of these policies being implemented and failing miserably should be enough to wake people up, but it just isn't yet.
Maybe after reform of the failed war on drugs policies are further advanced there will be space in people's minds to reform these policies as well.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28610921 - 01/05/24 07:20 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Vote Policy changes Advocacy work Theres alot that can be done
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen] 2
#28610928 - 01/05/24 07:27 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago) |
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The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
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geokills
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 1
#28611010 - 01/05/24 08:55 PM (22 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:
I think the real question now comes down to how do people go about changing these policies. Statistics show that in election years DA's and Governers ramp up with harsher sentences and higher incarceration rates to show that they are tough on crime, in a bid to win popularity. 40 years of these policies being implemented and failing miserably should be enough to wake people up, but it just isn't yet.
It's gonna be a tough slog my man... I live in one of the biggest cities in the world, and Los Angeles did progressively vote in district attorney George Gascón. He has one part of the equation right, in not throwing every petty criminal into the cell block system. But without the more important counterpart of normalizing NORMAL behavioral within the correctional system, we're still falling very short. And to our (i.e. humanity's) detriment, letting these petty criminals on the loose to recommit crimes is presently serving to facilitate a reactionary push back, in turn encouraging harsher criminal justice penalities. As much as I appeciate Gascón trying to reduce the prison population on the prosecution side, the real issue is within the prison system itself, post prosecution.
I sure hope we get there some day soon...
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Posts: 5,851
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28611062 - 01/05/24 10:37 PM (22 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I like what I've heard about restorative justice.
Quote:
By Lindsey Pointer, Ph.D., Associate Director, National Center on Restorative Justice, Assistant Professor, Center for Justice Reform, Vermont Law School
A question that we are often asked at the National Center on Restorative Justice (NCRJ) is “how does restorative justice differ from more mainstream approaches to justice-making in the criminal justice system and beyond?”
At its core, restorative justice defines “justice” in a radically different way than conventional criminal justice responses. Rather than justice as “punishment,” restorative justice conceives of justice as “repair” to the harm caused by crime and conflict. Understanding and responding to the needs of each involved party and the broader community is central to the collective creation of a just outcome.
In order to better understand this shift, we ask that you engage in a quick reflective exercise that we often facilitate with our students.
First, we ask that you reflect for a moment on a time that you became aware of a crime having been committed in your community. What were your needs as a community member? What was most important to you in that moment?
When we pose this question to students in our courses and trainings, we receive remarkably consistent responses. We hear, “I needed to feel safe again” or “I wanted to feel like I can trust the people in my community.” Some also express a need to understand why the crime took place or what led to the incident and to form a plan for how the community can prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.
Next, we ask you to think back on a time that you experienced significant harm. Maybe you were the victim of a crime or maybe it was an instance in your personal life where you were wronged by another person. What were your needs at that time?
Again, responses to this question are generally consistent. We hear answers such as “I needed the person who harmed me to know how it had impacted my life. I needed to know that he wouldn’t do it again to me or anyone else” or “I wanted to know that she understood what she had done and that she was sorry.” Some also express a need to have their questions answered. We also hear many practical needs for reparations, such as “I needed someone to fix the damage to my property.” Rather than a need for the person who caused the harm to be punished, what we hear are needs for information, validation of their experience and pain, assurance that it will not happen again, repairs, and an apology.
Finally, we ask that you think back on a time that you caused harm to another person. Maybe you committed a crime, or maybe you hurt someone, intentionally or not, through your words or actions. What were your needs?
When we ask this question, we again hear remarkably consistent responses. Many people say, “I needed to be able to apologize and do something to try to make it right.” Others express, “I needed to know that this one incident wouldn’t define me. That I would be seen as a whole person outside this one harmful behavior” or “I needed to share with the person I hurt about what was going through my mind at that time. I wanted to be understood.”
What we glean from this exercise is that there are some common human needs experienced in the wake of crime—needs for safety, understanding, validation, information, apology, and repair. These are needs that so often go completely unmet by our mainstream punitive justice responses, which are concerned primarily with assigning guilt and doling out punishments.
By bringing the involved parties together in a safe and voluntary dialogue with well-trained facilitators, restorative justice creates an opportunity for those human needs following crime to be met. It offers a more holistic and humanizing view of what it means to pursue justice.
The impact of this approach is evident in its outcomes including reduced recidivism and increased satisfaction on the part of all involved parties, particularly the harmed party or victim. Because of this positive impact, the use of restorative justice is rapidly expanding in criminal justice systems around the United States and the world.
Of course, restorative justice will not be an appropriate option for all incidents of harm. It is a voluntary process and both the harmed party and responsible party need to engage willingly. Furthermore, it is only effective when the responsible party is taking responsibility. It does not have a mechanism for determining guilt. Restorative justice processes should always be guided by well-trained facilitators who first take the time to meet individually with all involved parties and determine that no further harm will be caused by bringing those involved together in dialogue.
Historically, in the United States, restorative justice has primarily been used for minor offenses or juveniles. However, research has shown that restorative justice is more effective for crimes that are considered more severe including felony-level offenses. Therefore, it is NCRJ’s position that restorative approaches should be an option for any case in which the responsible and harmed parties feel that a restorative justice process would be helpful to their own healing journeys and the process can be carried out safely with the support of well-prepared facilitators. Dove resting in hands. Image created by Cleo Dunsmore Buchanan Restorative justice can be used across the spectrum of criminal justice interventions. It is often used as a diversion, with cases being referred directly by police officers or judges. It is also sometimes used alongside conventional criminal justice procedure, including during a prison sentence or upon reentry from incarceration. Many restorative justice programs also accept direct community referrals, allowing the criminal justice system to be bypassed entirely.
We encourage you to learn more about this promising approach to justice reform. NCRJ is a partnership between Vermont Law School, the University of Vermont, the University of San Diego, and the U.S. Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Assistance. NCRJ is funded by a federal grant to serve as the premier education, training, and research location for the advancement of restorative justice. If you are interested in learning more about restorative approaches to justice-making, please be in touch and consider one of our educational or training offerings.
taken from https://bjatta.bja.ojp.gov/media/blog/what-restorative-justice-and-how-does-it-impact-individuals-involved-crime
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Darwin23
INFJ



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28611131 - 01/06/24 01:37 AM (22 days, 13 hours ago) |
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I watched a Vice New documentary about the negative impact of guns being exported to Latin America. It showcased the drug war in Mexico, the societal collapse caused by MS-13 and 17th Street in Central America and it looked at Brazil. It finished with something like "When will America finally own up to its role in the gun violence in Latin America?"
Why does the Mexican drug war exist? Widespread mental health issues in the US creating an extreme demand for the drug trade which is only made more valuable the more the government clamps down.
Why is the gang feud threatening to cause the collapse of countries in South America? The US took in refugees from the El Salvadoran Civil War. They were largely sent to LA. The numbers of their gangs are literally street numbers from LA. Countries are on the verge of collapse because they learned our dysfunctional system and brought it back with them when they were mass deported in the 90s
Brazilian gun culture has exploded (no pun intended) with their inspiration being US gun culture. Unsurprisingly, crime drastically dropped when people had easy access to guns. It's not even clear what their point was, honestly.
But for the first two, they are directly tied to American issues. America doesn't have to own up to exporting guns, it has to own up to causing the Mexican drug wars and creating a gang culture so dangerous that they're threatening to collapse countries in Central America. What we need to own up to is the dysfunction and corruption in our society which has profoundly negative effects on us and our neighbors.
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Take a look at my journal
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theRealrollforever
I DID-DENT



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28611194 - 01/06/24 04:14 AM (22 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
“That sounds like slavery, just with extra steps”
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
Edited by theRealrollforever (01/06/24 04:16 AM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts

Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Darwin23]
#28611439 - 01/06/24 08:49 AM (22 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: I watched a Vice New documentary about the negative impact of guns being exported to Latin America. It showcased the drug war in Mexico, the societal collapse caused by MS-13 and 17th Street in Central America and it looked at Brazil. It finished with something like "When will America finally own up to its role in the gun violence in Latin America?"
Why does the Mexican drug war exist? Widespread mental health issues in the US creating an extreme demand for the drug trade which is only made more valuable the more the government clamps down.
Why is the gang feud threatening to cause the collapse of countries in South America? The US took in refugees from the El Salvadoran Civil War. They were largely sent to LA. The numbers of their gangs are literally street numbers from LA. Countries are on the verge of collapse because they learned our dysfunctional system and brought it back with them when they were mass deported in the 90s
Brazilian gun culture has exploded (no pun intended) with their inspiration being US gun culture. Unsurprisingly, crime drastically dropped when people had easy access to guns. It's not even clear what their point was, honestly.
But for the first two, they are directly tied to American issues. America doesn't have to own up to exporting guns, it has to own up to causing the Mexican drug wars and creating a gang culture so dangerous that they're threatening to collapse countries in Central America. What we need to own up to is the dysfunction and corruption in our society which has profoundly negative effects on us and our neighbors.
Yes everything is America's fault not thier own weak, remarkably currupt and dysfunctional governments.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Yes everything is America's fault not thier own weak, remarkably currupt and dysfunctional governments. 
Why not both and?
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts

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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Freedom]
#28611576 - 01/06/24 10:49 AM (22 days, 4 hours ago) |
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And legalize ketamine and end the drug war.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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i mean,
why not see it both as internal issues in the contries and also see that american policies also have effects on other countries
and
there is more to the story as well.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28611748 - 01/06/24 01:30 PM (22 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I like what I've heard about restorative justice.
I like the idea of restoring the victim, before the perp.
Firstly, the crime has a victim, right?
Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
They first rationalized slavery as a form of protective custody and job training -- comparable to restorative justice.
(No offense intended to present company.)
Now, there is crisis housing with forced labor and restriction of movement.
Would anyone like to know how to own a "slave" (sic)? I can name names of local businesses and licenses.
Fun fact --
Our local police dept first began as Japanese internment. Dirt bikers can still take a road, built by slave labor, up the mountainside to a small resort town. There are uninteresting piles of shelving and junk that were left during the internment.
SWIM was put in a place with no water, blankets, or sanitation for successfully pulling over, parking, falling asleep at the wheel, and appearing to be high on unidentified substance (critically ill without drugs of abuse) at the officer's personal discretion.
As your car is held for ransom, at crushing expense, you are supposed to take propaganda classes, and there is the opportunity for community service (slavery) for no nameable victim of any measurable damages, whatsoever.
I think I smell something.
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