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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28607429 - 01/02/24 05:05 PM (25 days, 21 hours ago) |
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The people who get arrested are typically not in the higher income bracket. NOT because they don't commit crimes. THEY DO They don't get arrested for them as much and their sentences are shorter.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
#28607962 - 01/03/24 04:03 AM (25 days, 10 hours ago) |
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The other thing that has come through tough on crime policies is an ending to conjugal visits. Really these visits aren't about sex but maintaining family bonds. In these visits children sit with their parents and play games and talk, like normal people. Marriages stay alive, important connections are maintained.
The person has lost their freedom already, is it really necessary to remove their family too?
By removing this small glimmer of humanity the system destroys families. The damage done is intergenerational. Children are harmed, partners are harmed, they are forced to move on with life and forget their loved one in complete absentia. For all intents and purposes they might as well be dead. It's incredibly cruel to make children's parents dead to them.
Also this small privilege compels good behaviour whilst in prison. It could be taken away and for many it can be the only thing that sees them through their punishment. Their tiny light of hope in a long dark tunnel. It's a powerful motivator in personal reform.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28608030 - 01/03/24 06:32 AM (25 days, 8 hours ago) |
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Restorative justice seems like a better approach
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


Registered: 05/08/01
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 3
#28610329 - 01/05/24 10:39 AM (23 days, 4 hours ago) |
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While the headline title for this thread is a bit misleading, the intended message behind its primary content is spot on.
I have no problem with the justice system restricting the freedom of individuals who have severely or repeatedly harmed others. I nevertheless find it heartbreaking that there is such an undeniable lack of rehabilitative services and productive structure within the "correctional" system. There is little to no emphasis/action on training for corrective behavior that would in turn help reintegrate a convicted law breaker back into society in a productive and positive way.
This dovetails into major issues with capitalistic for-profit prison systems and the culture they create; one that benefits from high rates of incarceration and sustained recidivism. If people are making money locking other people up, where is the incentive to spend money on programs to improve behavior that could potentially reduce the prison population and in turn cut profitability even further?
The whole thing is disgusting, and I totally share the dejection and outrage at the current state of affairs.
Nevertheless, there are glimmers of hope...
Click here for a nice little mini-documentary on a prison on South America that profiles one such productive prison population. Although the guardrails at this particular institution are exceptionally loose, the story is inspiring.
And here is a short profile on Norway's reformed prison system, that focuses on the idea that taking away someone's freedom with regard to being with their family and having the ability to choose where to go on their own, is the punishment, and that the rest of life in prison should more or less resemble life outside of prison, so that released prisoners will already be conditioned to handle a normal life.
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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ManianFH
living in perverty



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28610345 - 01/05/24 10:59 AM (23 days, 3 hours ago) |
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100% Geo - for profit prisons are a kind of societal negative feedback loop, but in the worst possible way. I suppose this is something that could be changed via legislation but I am not sure how difficult that would be given the roots of our current system.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28610408 - 01/05/24 11:39 AM (23 days, 3 hours ago) |
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There is a nuanced, hairsplitting discussion, on what is lawful -- as in commonlaw -- vs. what is legal -- as in legalese, legalitic.
I think it is possible for someone to be minding his own business and be subjected acts of piracy.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: durian_2008]
#28610412 - 01/05/24 11:43 AM (23 days, 3 hours ago) |
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One of the ways not to be subject to 'broken window policing'...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_law Don't break any "ugly laws". Insert New Year's Resolution, here. Quick. Before you look like that wildabeest with a gimp.
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28610831 - 01/05/24 05:45 PM (22 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
geokills said: While the headline title for this thread is a bit misleading, the intended message behind its primary content is spot on.
It wasn't trying to mislead, it was highlighting "tough on crime" policies being espoused by politicians. Hence the inverted commas.
I'm thankful that you fully understood what I'm trying to bring attention to. In particular the system in Norway. At around the same time as Norway implemented their rehabilitative prison system the US introduced "tough on crime" (literally as a political stance). Both countries had very similar crime statistics at the time, but the outcome of the different approaches is night and day.
I think the real question now comes down to how do people go about changing these policies. Statistics show that in election years DA's and Governers ramp up with harsher sentences and higher incarceration rates to show that they are tough on crime, in a bid to win popularity. 40 years of these policies being implemented and failing miserably should be enough to wake people up, but it just isn't yet.
Maybe after reform of the failed war on drugs policies are further advanced there will be space in people's minds to reform these policies as well.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,332
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28610921 - 01/05/24 07:20 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Vote Policy changes Advocacy work Theres alot that can be done
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen] 2
#28610928 - 01/05/24 07:27 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago) |
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The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


Registered: 05/08/01
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] 1
#28611010 - 01/05/24 08:55 PM (22 days, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said:
I think the real question now comes down to how do people go about changing these policies. Statistics show that in election years DA's and Governers ramp up with harsher sentences and higher incarceration rates to show that they are tough on crime, in a bid to win popularity. 40 years of these policies being implemented and failing miserably should be enough to wake people up, but it just isn't yet.
It's gonna be a tough slog my man... I live in one of the biggest cities in the world, and Los Angeles did progressively vote in district attorney George Gascón. He has one part of the equation right, in not throwing every petty criminal into the cell block system. But without the more important counterpart of normalizing NORMAL behavioral within the correctional system, we're still falling very short. And to our (i.e. humanity's) detriment, letting these petty criminals on the loose to recommit crimes is presently serving to facilitate a reactionary push back, in turn encouraging harsher criminal justice penalities. As much as I appeciate Gascón trying to reduce the prison population on the prosecution side, the real issue is within the prison system itself, post prosecution.
I sure hope we get there some day soon...
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: geokills]
#28611062 - 01/05/24 10:37 PM (22 days, 16 hours ago) |
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I like what I've heard about restorative justice.
Quote:
By Lindsey Pointer, Ph.D., Associate Director, National Center on Restorative Justice, Assistant Professor, Center for Justice Reform, Vermont Law School
A question that we are often asked at the National Center on Restorative Justice (NCRJ) is “how does restorative justice differ from more mainstream approaches to justice-making in the criminal justice system and beyond?”
At its core, restorative justice defines “justice” in a radically different way than conventional criminal justice responses. Rather than justice as “punishment,” restorative justice conceives of justice as “repair” to the harm caused by crime and conflict. Understanding and responding to the needs of each involved party and the broader community is central to the collective creation of a just outcome.
In order to better understand this shift, we ask that you engage in a quick reflective exercise that we often facilitate with our students.
First, we ask that you reflect for a moment on a time that you became aware of a crime having been committed in your community. What were your needs as a community member? What was most important to you in that moment?
When we pose this question to students in our courses and trainings, we receive remarkably consistent responses. We hear, “I needed to feel safe again” or “I wanted to feel like I can trust the people in my community.” Some also express a need to understand why the crime took place or what led to the incident and to form a plan for how the community can prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.
Next, we ask you to think back on a time that you experienced significant harm. Maybe you were the victim of a crime or maybe it was an instance in your personal life where you were wronged by another person. What were your needs at that time?
Again, responses to this question are generally consistent. We hear answers such as “I needed the person who harmed me to know how it had impacted my life. I needed to know that he wouldn’t do it again to me or anyone else” or “I wanted to know that she understood what she had done and that she was sorry.” Some also express a need to have their questions answered. We also hear many practical needs for reparations, such as “I needed someone to fix the damage to my property.” Rather than a need for the person who caused the harm to be punished, what we hear are needs for information, validation of their experience and pain, assurance that it will not happen again, repairs, and an apology.
Finally, we ask that you think back on a time that you caused harm to another person. Maybe you committed a crime, or maybe you hurt someone, intentionally or not, through your words or actions. What were your needs?
When we ask this question, we again hear remarkably consistent responses. Many people say, “I needed to be able to apologize and do something to try to make it right.” Others express, “I needed to know that this one incident wouldn’t define me. That I would be seen as a whole person outside this one harmful behavior” or “I needed to share with the person I hurt about what was going through my mind at that time. I wanted to be understood.”
What we glean from this exercise is that there are some common human needs experienced in the wake of crime—needs for safety, understanding, validation, information, apology, and repair. These are needs that so often go completely unmet by our mainstream punitive justice responses, which are concerned primarily with assigning guilt and doling out punishments.
By bringing the involved parties together in a safe and voluntary dialogue with well-trained facilitators, restorative justice creates an opportunity for those human needs following crime to be met. It offers a more holistic and humanizing view of what it means to pursue justice.
The impact of this approach is evident in its outcomes including reduced recidivism and increased satisfaction on the part of all involved parties, particularly the harmed party or victim. Because of this positive impact, the use of restorative justice is rapidly expanding in criminal justice systems around the United States and the world.
Of course, restorative justice will not be an appropriate option for all incidents of harm. It is a voluntary process and both the harmed party and responsible party need to engage willingly. Furthermore, it is only effective when the responsible party is taking responsibility. It does not have a mechanism for determining guilt. Restorative justice processes should always be guided by well-trained facilitators who first take the time to meet individually with all involved parties and determine that no further harm will be caused by bringing those involved together in dialogue.
Historically, in the United States, restorative justice has primarily been used for minor offenses or juveniles. However, research has shown that restorative justice is more effective for crimes that are considered more severe including felony-level offenses. Therefore, it is NCRJ’s position that restorative approaches should be an option for any case in which the responsible and harmed parties feel that a restorative justice process would be helpful to their own healing journeys and the process can be carried out safely with the support of well-prepared facilitators. Dove resting in hands. Image created by Cleo Dunsmore Buchanan Restorative justice can be used across the spectrum of criminal justice interventions. It is often used as a diversion, with cases being referred directly by police officers or judges. It is also sometimes used alongside conventional criminal justice procedure, including during a prison sentence or upon reentry from incarceration. Many restorative justice programs also accept direct community referrals, allowing the criminal justice system to be bypassed entirely.
We encourage you to learn more about this promising approach to justice reform. NCRJ is a partnership between Vermont Law School, the University of Vermont, the University of San Diego, and the U.S. Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Assistance. NCRJ is funded by a federal grant to serve as the premier education, training, and research location for the advancement of restorative justice. If you are interested in learning more about restorative approaches to justice-making, please be in touch and consider one of our educational or training offerings.
taken from https://bjatta.bja.ojp.gov/media/blog/what-restorative-justice-and-how-does-it-impact-individuals-involved-crime
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Darwin23
INFJ



Registered: 10/08/10
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
#28611131 - 01/06/24 01:37 AM (22 days, 13 hours ago) |
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I watched a Vice New documentary about the negative impact of guns being exported to Latin America. It showcased the drug war in Mexico, the societal collapse caused by MS-13 and 17th Street in Central America and it looked at Brazil. It finished with something like "When will America finally own up to its role in the gun violence in Latin America?"
Why does the Mexican drug war exist? Widespread mental health issues in the US creating an extreme demand for the drug trade which is only made more valuable the more the government clamps down.
Why is the gang feud threatening to cause the collapse of countries in South America? The US took in refugees from the El Salvadoran Civil War. They were largely sent to LA. The numbers of their gangs are literally street numbers from LA. Countries are on the verge of collapse because they learned our dysfunctional system and brought it back with them when they were mass deported in the 90s
Brazilian gun culture has exploded (no pun intended) with their inspiration being US gun culture. Unsurprisingly, crime drastically dropped when people had easy access to guns. It's not even clear what their point was, honestly.
But for the first two, they are directly tied to American issues. America doesn't have to own up to exporting guns, it has to own up to causing the Mexican drug wars and creating a gang culture so dangerous that they're threatening to collapse countries in Central America. What we need to own up to is the dysfunction and corruption in our society which has profoundly negative effects on us and our neighbors.
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Take a look at my journal
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theRealrollforever
I DID-DENT



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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28611194 - 01/06/24 04:14 AM (22 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
“That sounds like slavery, just with extra steps”
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
Edited by theRealrollforever (01/06/24 04:16 AM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts

Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Darwin23]
#28611439 - 01/06/24 08:49 AM (22 days, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: I watched a Vice New documentary about the negative impact of guns being exported to Latin America. It showcased the drug war in Mexico, the societal collapse caused by MS-13 and 17th Street in Central America and it looked at Brazil. It finished with something like "When will America finally own up to its role in the gun violence in Latin America?"
Why does the Mexican drug war exist? Widespread mental health issues in the US creating an extreme demand for the drug trade which is only made more valuable the more the government clamps down.
Why is the gang feud threatening to cause the collapse of countries in South America? The US took in refugees from the El Salvadoran Civil War. They were largely sent to LA. The numbers of their gangs are literally street numbers from LA. Countries are on the verge of collapse because they learned our dysfunctional system and brought it back with them when they were mass deported in the 90s
Brazilian gun culture has exploded (no pun intended) with their inspiration being US gun culture. Unsurprisingly, crime drastically dropped when people had easy access to guns. It's not even clear what their point was, honestly.
But for the first two, they are directly tied to American issues. America doesn't have to own up to exporting guns, it has to own up to causing the Mexican drug wars and creating a gang culture so dangerous that they're threatening to collapse countries in Central America. What we need to own up to is the dysfunction and corruption in our society which has profoundly negative effects on us and our neighbors.
Yes everything is America's fault not thier own weak, remarkably currupt and dysfunctional governments.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Yes everything is America's fault not thier own weak, remarkably currupt and dysfunctional governments. 
Why not both and?
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts

Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 22,532
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Freedom]
#28611576 - 01/06/24 10:49 AM (22 days, 4 hours ago) |
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And legalize ketamine and end the drug war.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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i mean,
why not see it both as internal issues in the contries and also see that american policies also have effects on other countries
and
there is more to the story as well.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28611748 - 01/06/24 01:30 PM (22 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I like what I've heard about restorative justice.
I like the idea of restoring the victim, before the perp.
Firstly, the crime has a victim, right?
Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: The "Police" literally started as slave patrol in the 1700s. Slavery is still a thing, theres just extra steps now.
They first rationalized slavery as a form of protective custody and job training -- comparable to restorative justice.
(No offense intended to present company.)
Now, there is crisis housing with forced labor and restriction of movement.
Would anyone like to know how to own a "slave" (sic)? I can name names of local businesses and licenses.
Fun fact --
Our local police dept first began as Japanese internment. Dirt bikers can still take a road, built by slave labor, up the mountainside to a small resort town. There are uninteresting piles of shelving and junk that were left during the internment.
SWIM was put in a place with no water, blankets, or sanitation for successfully pulling over, parking, falling asleep at the wheel, and appearing to be high on unidentified substance (critically ill without drugs of abuse) at the officer's personal discretion.
As your car is held for ransom, at crushing expense, you are supposed to take propaganda classes, and there is the opportunity for community service (slavery) for no nameable victim of any measurable damages, whatsoever.
I think I smell something.
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