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Invisibleloladoreen
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Registered: 05/25/20
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #28606734 - 01/02/24 07:50 AM (26 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Not much in the name of reform huh?



Nothing
With the exception of GED programs that are not offered to the majority
There are prison based dosa but the treatment is different than outside of prison
No harm reduction
Abstinence based
College is offered to long term then based on classification of crimes


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Invisiblestubb
Dahg Rastubfari
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: imachavel]
    #28606737 - 01/02/24 07:54 AM (26 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
That sounds like real talk. Some people even create imaginative ideas for prisons under the ocean like Aquacor. Definitely stay away from that place




By all means, put this guy under the ocean:
https://www.infostevemyersjackson.org/

He doesn't give a fuck whose life he destroys, whose family he breaks, who he robs of opportunity, or who he scars. He's a thief, he's disorderly. He does it because he wants to, and because he can.

I don't believe drug addicts belong in prison, but being tough on this fella in no way would make society worse and no bullshit statistic in the world is going to change my mind about that.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28606751 - 01/02/24 08:09 AM (26 days, 6 hours ago)

Sex crimes disgust me.
Hes out. Yet someone who stole a chainsaw is getting years.
Bs


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Invisiblestubb
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen] * 2
    #28606805 - 01/02/24 08:51 AM (26 days, 6 hours ago)

Exactly.

The argument about being lenient on crime is insane to me because seems we're largely debating fair prison treatment of people who commited imaginary crimes that shouldn't warrant punishment and who don't belong in prison in the first place. :shrug:


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OfflineDitchdude
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: stubb] * 1
    #28606829 - 01/02/24 09:33 AM (26 days, 5 hours ago)

Then let's release people who've had problematic lives after their sentences are over but have it be legal for them to be descriminated against in the job market and often have their voting rights removed so they can't vote to change unfair laws. 

I understand that there is a retribution desire that "feels" right to some.  But the numbers don't back it up. 

Thank you, Northerner.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28606838 - 01/02/24 09:49 AM (26 days, 5 hours ago)

A pet peeve of mine is when people say let em go to jail/prison so they get sober.
It is the complete opposite.


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28606853 - 01/02/24 09:59 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
People might think it unfair that people in prison would get free education and even free college, but the reality is that that is a much cheaper way of fixing the problem than keeping them in prison. At some point people need to realise that violence does not solve the issue, that it only makes it worse. That by lifting those who have made mistakes up and giving them a fresh start we can save a whole generation after them from a similar fate, instead of plunging them into poverty and desperation which just perpetuates the cycle.





I think it would only be unfair for prisoners to get free education/college if non-prisoners can't get free education/college.  Otherwise, people are incentivized to commit crimes to get free schooling.


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:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


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OfflineDitchdude
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 2
    #28606854 - 01/02/24 10:01 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

What if we took a little of the corrections money and put it into education? Crazy, I know.


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Offlinepointauthority
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28606863 - 01/02/24 10:10 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

The new 2024-2025 FASFA expanded access to Pell Grants, which is cool.

Quote:

Incarcerated students in federal and state penal facilities will regain the ability to receive a Federal Pell Grant (starting with the 2023–24 award year).




Also "ex"-felons (not currently serving) can already apply for Pell Grants I believe.

My college runs a books-for-prisoners program, so there's that. I have heard that the books that people in prison are allowed to read are the ones they want them to read. Is it really true that titles such as The 48 Laws of Power are banned in prisons? Is the goal to keep people unaware of how the penal system subjects them to subordination?


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: pointauthority]
    #28606883 - 01/02/24 10:29 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

Like I said we've already done all this shit here part of the whole second chance initiatives were sweeping criminal justice and prison reform as well as new programs that target specific issues. The problem is that criminals and urban kids just saw it as nothing else but an invitation to do alot of crime then get out do even more crime. Certain parts of the programs work and were keeping but others definitely didn't at all. I mean he there was one case where some kid had like dozens of charges including violent stuff and multiple car thefts was simpley just let out stole a car went in a police chase then the cops even stopped chasing them and but later on they got spooked by a car that looked like cop car and slammed a family and killed them. That's one of only many such stories. Infact I can't even find that specific story because of all the other stories but that's the one where people were like enough is enough and now we have to argue about changing the laws all over again which will likely take years. As far as drugs in prison go I don't think they are easier and certainly not cheaper to get at all it depends on where your doing time. Some places yeah you can get drugs I have a buddy in a place now where he said "I wouldn't even touch a bag of tea in here" he still can get soups tho :shrug:


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: pointauthority]
    #28606919 - 01/02/24 10:53 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

pointauthority said:
The new 2024-2025 FASFA expanded access to Pell Grants, which is cool.

Quote:

Incarcerated students in federal and state penal facilities will regain the ability to receive a Federal Pell Grant (starting with the 2023–24 award year).




Also "ex"-felons (not currently serving) can already apply for Pell Grants I believe.

My college runs a books-for-prisoners program, so there's that. I have heard that the books that people in prison are allowed to read are the ones they want them to read. Is it really true that titles such as The 48 Laws of Power are banned in prisons? Is the goal to keep people unaware of how the penal system subjects them to subordination?



True
48 laws is banned. White supremist use it.
They cant get books until out of classification, which often takes months. I know one person was there for 18 months.
FAFSA offers up to a bachelors degree for qualifying people.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #28606922 - 01/02/24 10:54 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Like I said we've already done all this shit here part of the whole second chance initiatives were sweeping criminal justice and prison reform as well as new programs that target specific issues. The problem is that criminals and urban kids just saw it as nothing else but an invitation to do alot of crime then get out do even more crime. Certain parts of the programs work and were keeping but others definitely didn't at all. I mean he there was one case where some kid had like dozens of charges including violent stuff and multiple car thefts was simpley just let out stole a car went in a police chase then the cops even stopped chasing them and but later on they got spooked by a car that looked like cop car and slammed a family and killed them. That's one of only many such stories. Infact I can't even find that specific story because of all the other stories but that's the one where people were like enough is enough and now we have to argue about changing the laws all over again which will likely take years. As far as drugs in prison go I don't think they are easier and certainly not cheaper to get at all it depends on where your doing time. Some places yeah you can get drugs I have a buddy in a place now where he said "I wouldn't even touch a bag of tea in here" he still can get soups tho :shrug:



You can get high for a soup.
Certainly cheaper, a soup is $3 and a bag is $40.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28606942 - 01/02/24 11:15 AM (26 days, 3 hours ago)

Dependent on the jail and what they use for security. Some have no drugs, others are filled with them.
The one my son is currently in, no drugs. They have a scan device that scans your entire body and all cavities.
The one I used to primarily work in was flooded with them.

Different drugs cost different.
Subs are big in prison. Not that expensive.
Meth is expensive.
I had a guy get very deep in debt over meth and barely survived the beating he took due to his debt. He was bad and now has permanent damage.


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: loladoreen]
    #28607065 - 01/02/24 12:59 PM (26 days, 2 hours ago)

I don't know, my city stopped arresting people for personal amounts of drugs now people smoke fentanyl on the train with impunity.

If I had a choice for no enforcement (ie the way things are now) vs say Saudi Arabia (ie hands getting chopped off) I don't see the advantage to being soft.

People keep saying the drug war doesn't work but there is no opioid epidemic in Korea or Japan or the Philippines. A certain level of draconian old testament justice is a deterrent. 

I have no problem doing drugs quietly and discreetly at home, I wouldn't cry if the guy shooting dope in his dick vein in front the daycare got destroyed by the legal system though.


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Lysergamides I have tried so far: 1P-LSD, 1cP-LSD, ALD-52, AL-LAD, LSZ, ETH-LAD, MIPLA, EIPLA, 1cP-AL-LAD


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28607084 - 01/02/24 01:13 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

I would
Its a human being


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: viraldrome] * 2
    #28607123 - 01/02/24 01:41 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

Crime is a social issue in the vast majority of cases. Antisocial behavior not something we can punish and traumatize out of people, that just causes more antisocial behavior.

The number one cause of it is lack of education and opportunity. Like I said right back at the start of this thread... people don't want to be thieves, drug addicts and disorderly people. People want to feel loved, safe and secure. They really do. You, me everyone. We want a home, we want our people, we want food on a plate and the knowledge that if we get up and go to work that that car could be ours, that that watch could be ours, that there is a holiday waiting for us at the end of the year as a reward for all our hard work. That our lives mean something and we are going somewhere.

For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place. It still doesn't solve the problem. Because crime isn't the problem, people and how they feel is the problem.

The financial cost in the US of being hard on crime, when you factor in prisons, courts, police, social services and other infrastructure is currently about a trillion dollars annually. $1,000,000,000,000... every year. And when it's considered that this money is used to crush the poorest and most disadvantaged in society already the insanity becomes even more apparent.

Take a person in prison who has nothing, has no opportunity, no education, no skills, and is in the system because they stole a bunch of stuff or dealt drugs or whatever... force them to act like humans, clean their own rooms and a make their own food, force them to be educated in something and force them to do work that is meaningful. This is more normal than many of these people have ever behaved before. Now if that person misbehaves in prison you have something to take away, so behavior improves. They don't have their freedom still, they can't go see friends or go to a movie or go sit in the park and enjoy nature. They are very much being punished. But when their time is over they know how to care for themselves, they know how to cook for themselves, they have some sort of education, they have a usable skill they can use to get a job. That 78% chance that they are going to be back in prison in 7 years is now significantly lower. The associated costs rearresting and imprisoning them evaporate. It's cheaper for you as a taxpayer, it's better for your community because now there is another taxpayer working with you to live a better life rather than subsisting on whatever they can get. Crime rates drop, drug abuse rates drop, policing pressure drops, court systems become less clogged up, prisons become less overcrowded. This is what rehabilitation looks like.

This isn't imaginary scenario that'll never work. Other countries do this.

Of course there's some sick motherfuckers that need to be kept away from everything with a heartbeat, but that is a tiny minority. The vast majority of people who are in prison are there because they are poor and uneducated and/or made stupid mistakes. Not because they are bad people. "Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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Invisiblestubb
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28607141 - 01/02/24 01:53 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.



How very convenient. :lol:


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28607147 - 01/02/24 01:56 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.




... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime?  Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.



Quote:

Northerner said:
"Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.




I wish I lived in the reality you lived in because I see loads of bad people in this world.


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:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/02/24 01:56 PM)


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Invisiblestubb
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: Northerner]
    #28607187 - 01/02/24 02:17 PM (26 days, 42 minutes ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Crime is a social issue in the vast majority of cases.




Yet you chalk your privilage up to 'luck'.
Good thing the poor, lesser fortunate, uneducated masses have you looking out for them.
:begone:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Why "tough on crime" makes society worse. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28607190 - 01/02/24 02:18 PM (26 days, 40 minutes ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
For those who even suggest being soft on crime as an alternative to being hard on crime you are being just as dumb as the stupid mfkers who suggested being hard on crime in the first place.




... aren't you saying we should be softer on crime?  Your title is "why "tough on crime" makes society worse"... so that alludes to you are wanting us to be softer on it... if not, then maybe you should make the distinction clearer.




How much clearer do I have to be about rehabilitation models? I can't write the everything in the whole thread title. I did not suggest at any time that we just start letting criminals go because crime is okay, it's not. This thread is about the perpetuation of violence and how to stop it.

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
"Bad people" are actually very rare creatures.




I wish I lived in the reality you lived in because I see loads of bad people in this world.



What you see is your judgement of people. You don't see someone's mother, father, son, daughter... you fail to see the human and realise that they have basic emotional needs that have been grossly overlooked that are causing them to behave the way they do.

They are not bad in the sense that they cannot help themselves but kill and rape, they are simply social fuckups who have no base-line normal.

You would think right that less crime means less people in prison? Here's a telling graph. Note the big fall off with the rona at the far right.



https://okpolicy.org/surprisingly-weak-link-incarceration-crime/


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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