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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Kickle]
    #28607019 - 01/02/24 12:17 PM (25 days, 7 hours ago)

That seems true. I'm not sure what culture the idea comes from, sometimes its called modernity, or colonialism or 'Western', that all sounds kind of vague, but there is this idea that humans are above and seperate from animals.

I wonder where that comes from, maybe from domestication of animals


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Freedom]
    #28607024 - 01/02/24 12:20 PM (25 days, 7 hours ago)

Humans justify killing all sorts of ways. But a common one in recent times is to see the other as inferior, uncultured, unclean, and dangerous.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28607031 - 01/02/24 12:24 PM (25 days, 7 hours ago)

Mythology has often claimed that civilization was taught to our species by another. I have some beliefs along those lines that others would consider pretty far out, but they don't involve magic beings or aliens, just different forms of intelligent life on Earth.

Of course that's all trivia and a whole different topic, but I don't believe that we have the clearest picture of our ancient past.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28607032 - 01/02/24 12:25 PM (25 days, 7 hours ago)



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Lion]
    #28607040 - 01/02/24 12:34 PM (25 days, 6 hours ago)

I would just say that culture evolves from biology only to a point. The similarities between all cultures dictate that this is the case to some degree. Human universals. But on the other hand, and this is modern anthropology's position, it seems there is a lot of evidence that culture can evolve quite independently of genetics.

In a very wide sense, DNA builds the circuits of the brain. But once one is out of the womb and in the world, the way those circuits get wired up varies widely and almost arbitrarily. This would highlight the variety of differences between cultures in time and space on Earth.

So I think for the most part culture is independent of biology, with a few universal behavioral themes.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607057 - 01/02/24 12:56 PM (25 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I would just say that culture evolves from biology only to a point. The similarities between all cultures dictate that this is the case to some degree.




Genetic bottlenecks also result in cultural bottlenecks.
The similarities of cultures are rarely convergent but are divergent.
Genetic, cultural, linguistic and archaeological evidence can be used to make that case quite strongly.

The Jungian archetypes theory that the different similar aspects of culture are due to archetypes was based in the primitive belief in the separate origin of human races from distinct groups of primates. We now know that is not the case, the similarities are because of common origin that all peoples share and so called races are just adaptations of populations to environments over time.

I can show that the 8 fold path, the Bagua or 8 trigrams and the Ogdoad are all different versions of the same thing and can show how they diverged and developed from a single common culture a little over ten thousand years ago. One can follow the genetic development or the language back just the same, martial arts and even temple design and sacred sculptures relate. It's my favorite topic but I don't like discussing it too much because it requires familiarity with a massive amount of material and it can be offensive to those who believe in most organized religions or things like Jungian archetypes.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Nillion]
    #28607064 - 01/02/24 12:58 PM (25 days, 6 hours ago)

sounds like a fun book


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Nillion]
    #28607106 - 01/02/24 01:30 PM (25 days, 6 hours ago)

I can show that the 8 fold path, the Bagua or 8 trigrams and the Ogdoad are all different versions of the same thing and can show how they diverged and developed from a single common culture a little over ten thousand years ago.

And what did that fork come from? :smile:

I think I remember you saying you're into the etymology of words. Do you think there is an actual origin point? Or do you think our conception of origin is more akin to rounding off pi to 3.14?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Kickle]
    #28607148 - 01/02/24 01:56 PM (25 days, 5 hours ago)

anthropological proof of origins in culture is harder to verify than proof that Trump is an insurrectionist, and that is patently obvious except to the severely demented.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607208 - 01/02/24 02:28 PM (25 days, 5 hours ago)

The 8 fold fork, so to speak, was just an example of material assumed to relate to archetypes classically that relates to a genetic, linguistic and cultural bottleneck that our species went though.

It's trivia, but it is fascinating trivia.

I select those because they even become the beatitudes and are taught by the Gnostics because they were transmitted through that guy everybody calls Jesus. Pretty sure he picked them up in Alexandria when he abandoned the Rabbinic tradition, before he became baptized as a Mandaean and then had the title Nazarene. The Rabbi that was with his family when they went to Egypt talked mad shit about him becoming a brick worshiper, in the Talmud. Christians ignore a lot of these records because they don't match the stuff that the Catholics voted on as Truth in Nicea. There really are contemporary records about the life and death of the man folks call Jesus, but they do not match the narrative that is preferred and so are rejected. I might even get around to relating more about that at some point, but probably not. I don't want to pour gasoline on the fire of some person thinking they are Jesus when they eat a bunch of mushrooms and think about God, which has happened more than a few times on this planet. I've met more than one person who claimed to be Jesus and who said that they learned they were him from taking psychedelics. I've often thought there should be a name for that.

Like I mention, the presentation of my perspective is quite offensive to numerous groups and people.

I mean, if I said that Turquoise boy, the solar deity of Native Americans was the same as the depiction of Vishnu as a young blue child in the Sun, is the same as Amitābha... I think that would fly in the face of what so many people believe that I'd be mocked without consideration. To me I've proven these things beyond a reasonable doubt. And yet for me there is no question of this.

I admit, I have an entirely different version of human history, of religious development, of evolution and of numerous other aspects than that which is commonly considered factual. Certainly I don't expect anyone to believe anything because some guy wrote it online, doubt is the most reasonable of all positions.

The thing is, though, that I am not a man easily convinced of anything.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28607221 - 01/02/24 02:33 PM (25 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you think there is an actual origin point? Or do you think our conception of origin is more akin to rounding off pi to 3.14?



Depends on the context and the thing being discussed in terms of origination.

In general I know more about transmission than ultimate origin and I know likewise that even the most tenable of explanations can only rest upon the understanding of the information one has, thus I cannot be sure of anything at all, but I am sure that I know what I think and believe and that is relative and subject to change.

I wish I was more intelligent on the daily.
It may be that my belief is nothing more than ignorance.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Nillion]
    #28607558 - 01/02/24 06:42 PM (25 days, 50 minutes ago)

The 8 fold fork, so to speak, was just an example of material assumed to relate to archetypes classically that relates to a genetic, linguistic and cultural bottleneck that our species went though.

I understand the concept of a bottleneck but am having a difficult time picturing that in real world terms. What sort of genetic circumstances can you relate this to? Or linguistic? Or cultural?

And have these circumstances not occurred again since that time?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28607630 - 01/02/24 07:33 PM (24 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
anthropological proof of origins in culture is harder to verify than proof that Trump is an insurrectionist, and that is patently obvious except to the severely demented.




Getting way off topic but here's my relation. Watched this to start the morning:



--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28607670 - 01/02/24 08:18 PM (24 days, 23 hours ago)

As mentioned, I am not a man easily convinced of anything but this is also not the place to get into the details of my beliefs about these things. Here the basic information about the bottleneck in relation to timing and events sequence that relates to the elements I mentioned previously.


My best estimation is that the bottleneck occurred in relation to the event that triggered the Younger Dryas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

And that human populations were significantly diminished at that time. 

This corresponds to Late Plesitocene extinctions in the Americas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene_extinctions#North_America

Not only did it hit North America hard...

I believe the event sequence wiped out the Sebilians for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebilian

and the Qadans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadan_culture

Whose tools traces disappear around the same time as the Sebilians. Even the range for the disappearance of the Harifian culture hits about 10.8K years ago. All of these Egyptian cultures disappearance includes the same range for about 11K years ago. The event didn't just hit North America hard. After it those not wiped out by the event had to deal with something quite similar to a volcanic winter.

I don't think this is the place to discuss this topic though and I'm not inclined to outline and present it formally online. These are just examples of personal beliefs about aspects of our story, the tale of our species in relation to the history and future of this planet. However to the best of my understanding the origin of these cultural transmissions comes from limited  populations that endured the Younger Dryas and the event that triggered it.

A few populations also escaped the event, in Australia for example,  some of the Inca ancestors appear to have survived underground in a cave near Titicaca, but for the most part the human world was utterly decimated by a catastrophic event and a surprise ice age.

Wanna see a crater I think relates to the event in question?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturralde_crater

An example of a myth relating to the event in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou_Yi

For the record Wikipedia only has a few elements of the story listed, there is more out there if you want to look for it.

That's probably all I am going to write about this for now, it relates to private theories and such that I'd rather not put on the internet.


Edited by Nillion (01/02/24 08:19 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Nillion]
    #28607698 - 01/02/24 08:34 PM (24 days, 22 hours ago)

No worries, thanks for sharing what you did. I'm not questioning your character specifically but I had no reference knowledge of specific abnormalities in that time period


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607706 - 01/02/24 08:38 PM (24 days, 22 hours ago)

I'm a very generous person. I have learned I am also selfish about some things.
Like my time alone.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #28607733 - 01/02/24 09:15 PM (24 days, 22 hours ago)

In psychology, it's fairly well studied that different people show different levels of prosocial behavior. Some people show little or none, others show a lot, most people are in the middle.

There are plenty reasons why prosocial behavior is beneficial for individuals. People who you help might help you in return, it can create social bonds which are incredibly important for finding lovers and jobs, it might make people think more highly of you which could benefit you socially, it can lead to promotions in the workplace because people want to work with others who they perceive as being nice or enjoyable to work with, and on a large scale it can help genes to survive by increasing the likelihood that a larger social group survives even if a single individual does not.

However, selfishness is also incredibly beneficial (for obvious reasons), and sometimes prosocial behavior can be useless.

Because both behaviors can be useful, we have people in our society who are selfish, and others who are very prosocial. Some people are maximizing one of the two traits, but most people fall in the middle.


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Offlineblessed


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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607994 - 01/03/24 05:07 AM (24 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Modern economic theory depends on the axiom that man is naturally acquisitive and always acts for selfish reasons, ultimately. Most modern humans subscribe to this assumption.

There is in fact no genetic imperative making humans naturally selfish and acquisitive. Indeed, for hundreds of thousands of years we were a cooperative, non-materialistic species. If, for the sake of perspective, planetary evolution took a thousand years, human society as currently constituted would have lasted for less than a day. So, this "natural" acquisitiveness and material hoarding is the exception, not the rule.

We are not programmed by our DNA to be like this. We are programmed by our culture to be like this.

So, in contradistinction to economic and biological ideas, anthropology would tend to indicate that for most of our history we were not inherently acquisitive and always selfish.

Would anyone like to offer a solution to this discrepancy?



The problem is that, that's your opinion (bold out text), hinders any conclusions you might reach to be right/correct.
One can not turn a theory into a fact, and then use that fact (actually an opinion), as a foundation for the findings of facts.

That said, I believe we have always been acquisitive and selfish.

There are children right now who have little to nothing, the kind of child that would be happy playing with a worn out bike tyre, yet if they went from that situation to being given the vast options like most first world kids are presented with, I believe said child would soon show signs of acquisitive and selfishness given the right circumstance.

And

Most people (around 90-99% of all people) that say they love someone (regardless of who it is), say "I love You" and demonstrate their love for someone else, do it from a selfish position.  That is, if person A says that they love person B, but then person A received absolutely nothing back from person B, you would find that person's A "love" would soon end.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: blessed] * 1
    #28608033 - 01/03/24 06:39 AM (24 days, 12 hours ago)

Unconditional love is
Quote:

blessed said:
Most people (around 90-99% of all people) that say they love someone (regardless of who it is), say "I love You" and demonstrate their love for someone else, do it from a selfish position.  That is, if person A says that they love person B, but then person A received absolutely nothing back from person B, you would find that person's A "love" would soon end.



I love everybody and expect nothing and I still think that is pretty self serving. It if didn't help make me happy and help me find peace I doubt I would have pursued the ability to love neighbors like myself. I'm not sure that selfless love can even exist and I write that as a parent who wakes up early and makes food for children to help them prepare for the day. Even when I serve others I also serve myself.


Edited by Nillion (01/03/24 06:42 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: blessed]
    #28608370 - 01/03/24 11:41 AM (24 days, 7 hours ago)

That’s not an opinion at all. It reflects a hundred years of ethnographic findings by professional anthropologists. It is academic anthropology’s official position. It is not controversial within the field.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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