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InvisibleNillion
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Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28606301 - 01/01/24 06:45 PM (26 days, 18 hours ago)

I've seen jealousy in young children, as well as generosity so I think that we have some strong instinct for both behaviors and as you mention we are programmed by our culture, I suspect in a way that creates an imbalance in terms of these two instincts.

Examples of kindness are often a decent inoculation against the infectious disease of indifference and coldness. People who are shown love are more likely to be loving I think, so on and so forth. It's not really a solution, but it gives individuals a chance to try to make the world a better place one choice at a time. I also think that our behavior and examples speak more loudly than our words.

Speaking of the ruthlessness of our society and how we are taught to seek to compete against one another instead of work together, I think this article written, again, by Albert Einstein, has more than a few good points.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28606314 - 01/01/24 06:56 PM (26 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Einstein said: An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.





In the article he observes that competition against one another has numerous detrimental effects. He also predicts the economic collapses we have repeatedly seen, which have been dealt with by using bailouts.

Isn't that funny? That when our capitalist society has repeatedly failed to be sustainable we keep using socialism to repair it.

I think so.

I wonder how many people in the USA who claim to hate socialism cashed their Covid checks?

Most of them, I'd wager.
Making every one of them who did so a practicing socialist.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28606345 - 01/01/24 07:16 PM (26 days, 18 hours ago)

Indeed, our species has relied heavily upon cooperation to survive for most of its existence.

It is interesting that the wild type people of the past are considered more magnanimous by nature than the domesticated form of our species is today.

Still there was more cannibalism in the past, so it's complicated.

Speaking of people eating...

I'm reminded of the parable about Hell being a place where people seated at a table are trying to feel themselves with spoons too long to reach their mouths, they all suffer from hunger. In the parable Heaven is identical but the difference is that the people are feeding one another.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28606823 - 01/02/24 09:20 AM (26 days, 4 hours ago)

I think social construction indicates that a lot (not all, I agree much of behavior is biology) of our culture is non-biological in origin and that in order to make it work there have been centuries of eugenics efforts. 

We are the domesticated version of our kind, not the type that was adapted towards natural survival, if I am not mistaken. Particularly here in the US where I reside.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28606959 - 01/02/24 11:32 AM (26 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I find the distinction between biology and environment suspect at scale.




I'm inclined to agree.

Is all behavior geared towards survival?
I wonder.

I think that there are some nuances there and that Freedom and Kickle both have good points that may not be in opposition.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28607031 - 01/02/24 12:24 PM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

Mythology has often claimed that civilization was taught to our species by another. I have some beliefs along those lines that others would consider pretty far out, but they don't involve magic beings or aliens, just different forms of intelligent life on Earth.

Of course that's all trivia and a whole different topic, but I don't believe that we have the clearest picture of our ancient past.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607057 - 01/02/24 12:56 PM (26 days, 40 minutes ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I would just say that culture evolves from biology only to a point. The similarities between all cultures dictate that this is the case to some degree.




Genetic bottlenecks also result in cultural bottlenecks.
The similarities of cultures are rarely convergent but are divergent.
Genetic, cultural, linguistic and archaeological evidence can be used to make that case quite strongly.

The Jungian archetypes theory that the different similar aspects of culture are due to archetypes was based in the primitive belief in the separate origin of human races from distinct groups of primates. We now know that is not the case, the similarities are because of common origin that all peoples share and so called races are just adaptations of populations to environments over time.

I can show that the 8 fold path, the Bagua or 8 trigrams and the Ogdoad are all different versions of the same thing and can show how they diverged and developed from a single common culture a little over ten thousand years ago. One can follow the genetic development or the language back just the same, martial arts and even temple design and sacred sculptures relate. It's my favorite topic but I don't like discussing it too much because it requires familiarity with a massive amount of material and it can be offensive to those who believe in most organized religions or things like Jungian archetypes.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #28607208 - 01/02/24 02:28 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago)

The 8 fold fork, so to speak, was just an example of material assumed to relate to archetypes classically that relates to a genetic, linguistic and cultural bottleneck that our species went though.

It's trivia, but it is fascinating trivia.

I select those because they even become the beatitudes and are taught by the Gnostics because they were transmitted through that guy everybody calls Jesus. Pretty sure he picked them up in Alexandria when he abandoned the Rabbinic tradition, before he became baptized as a Mandaean and then had the title Nazarene. The Rabbi that was with his family when they went to Egypt talked mad shit about him becoming a brick worshiper, in the Talmud. Christians ignore a lot of these records because they don't match the stuff that the Catholics voted on as Truth in Nicea. There really are contemporary records about the life and death of the man folks call Jesus, but they do not match the narrative that is preferred and so are rejected. I might even get around to relating more about that at some point, but probably not. I don't want to pour gasoline on the fire of some person thinking they are Jesus when they eat a bunch of mushrooms and think about God, which has happened more than a few times on this planet. I've met more than one person who claimed to be Jesus and who said that they learned they were him from taking psychedelics. I've often thought there should be a name for that.

Like I mention, the presentation of my perspective is quite offensive to numerous groups and people.

I mean, if I said that Turquoise boy, the solar deity of Native Americans was the same as the depiction of Vishnu as a young blue child in the Sun, is the same as Amitābha... I think that would fly in the face of what so many people believe that I'd be mocked without consideration. To me I've proven these things beyond a reasonable doubt. And yet for me there is no question of this.

I admit, I have an entirely different version of human history, of religious development, of evolution and of numerous other aspects than that which is commonly considered factual. Certainly I don't expect anyone to believe anything because some guy wrote it online, doubt is the most reasonable of all positions.

The thing is, though, that I am not a man easily convinced of anything.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28607221 - 01/02/24 02:33 PM (25 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you think there is an actual origin point? Or do you think our conception of origin is more akin to rounding off pi to 3.14?



Depends on the context and the thing being discussed in terms of origination.

In general I know more about transmission than ultimate origin and I know likewise that even the most tenable of explanations can only rest upon the understanding of the information one has, thus I cannot be sure of anything at all, but I am sure that I know what I think and believe and that is relative and subject to change.

I wish I was more intelligent on the daily.
It may be that my belief is nothing more than ignorance.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #28607670 - 01/02/24 08:18 PM (25 days, 17 hours ago)

As mentioned, I am not a man easily convinced of anything but this is also not the place to get into the details of my beliefs about these things. Here the basic information about the bottleneck in relation to timing and events sequence that relates to the elements I mentioned previously.


My best estimation is that the bottleneck occurred in relation to the event that triggered the Younger Dryas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

And that human populations were significantly diminished at that time. 

This corresponds to Late Plesitocene extinctions in the Americas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene_extinctions#North_America

Not only did it hit North America hard...

I believe the event sequence wiped out the Sebilians for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebilian

and the Qadans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadan_culture

Whose tools traces disappear around the same time as the Sebilians. Even the range for the disappearance of the Harifian culture hits about 10.8K years ago. All of these Egyptian cultures disappearance includes the same range for about 11K years ago. The event didn't just hit North America hard. After it those not wiped out by the event had to deal with something quite similar to a volcanic winter.

I don't think this is the place to discuss this topic though and I'm not inclined to outline and present it formally online. These are just examples of personal beliefs about aspects of our story, the tale of our species in relation to the history and future of this planet. However to the best of my understanding the origin of these cultural transmissions comes from limited  populations that endured the Younger Dryas and the event that triggered it.

A few populations also escaped the event, in Australia for example,  some of the Inca ancestors appear to have survived underground in a cave near Titicaca, but for the most part the human world was utterly decimated by a catastrophic event and a surprise ice age.

Wanna see a crater I think relates to the event in question?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturralde_crater

An example of a myth relating to the event in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou_Yi

For the record Wikipedia only has a few elements of the story listed, there is more out there if you want to look for it.

That's probably all I am going to write about this for now, it relates to private theories and such that I'd rather not put on the internet.


Edited by Nillion (01/02/24 08:19 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Are humans naturally acquisitive and always selfish? [Re: blessed] * 1
    #28608033 - 01/03/24 06:39 AM (25 days, 6 hours ago)

Unconditional love is
Quote:

blessed said:
Most people (around 90-99% of all people) that say they love someone (regardless of who it is), say "I love You" and demonstrate their love for someone else, do it from a selfish position.  That is, if person A says that they love person B, but then person A received absolutely nothing back from person B, you would find that person's A "love" would soon end.



I love everybody and expect nothing and I still think that is pretty self serving. It if didn't help make me happy and help me find peace I doubt I would have pursued the ability to love neighbors like myself. I'm not sure that selfless love can even exist and I write that as a parent who wakes up early and makes food for children to help them prepare for the day. Even when I serve others I also serve myself.


Edited by Nillion (01/03/24 06:42 AM)


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