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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
    #28589092 - 12/18/23 09:19 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
:lol:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.



That may be true, but you are still a sinner.



How so?




But how have I sinned?
Also there are tons of things not true in that.
Number 11 particularly stands out to me.
So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?
I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
:shrug:
That sounds like terrorism to me.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 05:56 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 2
    #28591601 - 12/20/23 04:24 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Saints by definition work miracles.

Priests may just be members of the worlds oldest book club whose main pastime is asking for money.

At least with organized religion one has a choice in terms of the callings, which are related to social functions and the organizations needs.

I'm neither a Saint, nor  Priest, but am deeply religious.
I don't pursue nor desire reward, nor fear punishment. 
I don't even teach my religion to others.
It's private.

I occasionally discuss aspects of my religiosity and the related content with others, but rarely and never in great detail.

Let the divine initiate those who are meant to be initiated, it needs no human representative nor spokesperson and my understanding is that it never calls people to speak for it, because it can speak for itself.

It's easy to convert people to belief patters using their fear and avarice. Organized religion excels at this no? But they fail at the spiritual matters and so end up working very hard to label anything outside of their teachings and claims as a form of heresy that should be exterminated and extinguished. This is why those who are called typically hide themselves and do not speak of their faith and practice. They even adopt the symbolism of their oppressors to do this.


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Offlineblessed


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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604129 - 12/31/23 04:26 AM (28 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
:lol:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Even with mistakes made. I’m a good person.



That may be true, but you are still a sinner.



How so?




But how have I sinned?
Also there are tons of things not true in that.
Number 11 particularly stands out to me.
So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?
I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
:shrug:
That sounds like terrorism to me.




Sorry for the delayed response.  I'm going to reply to you on a point by point basis.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Here’s the original post. Because you edited it in a negative fashion.



This was not intentional but merely a editing error.  I've now fixed it in my previous post.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
But how have I sinned?



Most people if they are honest, will admit that they have done bad things.  This can include lying, stealing, gossiping, losing their temper, not doing something they know they should have done, deceiving others for ones own benefit, wrongly judging others, putting others down from a sense of pride, treating others in a bad way (causing mental or physical harm) and so on.  Now I'm not going to pretend to know you but I'm sure you've done at least one or more thing that I just mentioned.  I'm also quite sure you've also broken one or more of the 10 Commandments.

Now from the Bibles point of view, a sin is the breaking of God's law.  This means if you lie (even just once), then you have committed a sin.  Now the same can be said of the laws of the land.  Should you go over the speed limit while driving you would be a law breaker.  Now while you may not go to jail for going over the speed limit, if you were honest you would have to admit that you've broken the law (of the land).  The same principle applies with us and sin.

Now there's also another aspect to sin.  Thanks (or no thanks) to Adam & Eve's disobedience (breaking God's laws) sin entered and now all men are destined to die.  This dying is not because of the result of the natural ageing process but a direct result of sin (breaking God's commandments). I'd like to mention also that prior to man committing sin, that death was not a reality for mankind.  Now, your and my problem is this......, just like a mother that has aids will have babies that also have aids, we are all offspring of sinful parents/people (right back to Adam & Eve).  So you see, even a new born baby, has the sin nature and not only that, he or she also carries with in them the curse and penalty of sin too, which is death.  This is in fact everyone's lot, everyone.

Long story short if you are honest with yourself, you can't deny you have sinned (according to the Bible definition of what sin is).  That is, disobeyed and broken God's commandments and wronged your fellow man.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Also there are tons of things not true in that.
Number 11 particularly stands out to me.
So you have never met anyone who sought out spiritual meaning or God?



I'd like to answer this in two ways.

First, can an unborn child meet their parents?  In the same manner we are created by God and in this, the only way we could ever know (or seek him out) is that he first made us.  On this point, in making us, he made it possible to know him, and without him making us, it IS impossible.

Second,  every person is born with a sin nature, and by default there is no (genuine) desire (within us) to seek and find and know God.  Now we live in a time where we can share idea's, opinion's, world views, beliefs, and knowledge (some fact's and some theories), but it hasn't always been like this.  Still even with the way the world is today, we as individuals are no different from people who live before technology made the world smaller allowing many to communicate and share information (right and wrong) at a speed that is quite something.  Now today children are brought up being taught (many things) both from their parents and from society and yet this simple fact remains, that unless we are taught something we will not know of it.

Maybe a good way to say it concerns myself.  I would not have believed in God if my parents hadn't also believed in God, and in doing so forced me to go to church.  Now if you take away my parents belief in God, and also removed all that made them know about God, then my parents would not have known about God at all and they would have not made me go to church.  Apparently there have been those in the past that have wanted to rid the world of the Bible, and had they succeeded I would not be having this conversation with you today.

So I agree with what the Bible says in that no one (genuinely) seeks out God.  Now the Bible says,

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

In this context, we are all walking in darkness, and only by God's word can we come to know the truth.  The truth of God, and the truth of ourselves.


Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
I am not a sinner. But somebody who tries to tell me, I’m gonna burn in hell for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.
:shrug:



First, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, fact remain, the Bible calls you a sinner.

Second, you are wrong in thinking that you are going to hell because (as you say), "for not reading that book page to page and believing every single thing in it.".  This is not what the Bible says at all.

Seems you've ether been,
a. lied to (willfully).
b. misled (not intentional but still same end result).
c. You haven't truly seek'd out God and therefor never found the truth because you were never really looking for it?
  Note - Some/Many people open the Bible not to find the truth it contains, but their desire is (before they even read one verse) is to find reasons NOT to believe.
d. Some of all the above.


Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible.  First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.  The Bible presents it's self as "The Truth" and leaves each person to ether believe it or not (accept or reject).  Again, there is NO gun to your head.

Now only lies are terrified (terrorized) of, and by truth, and if the Bible and it's message is an act of terrorism (as you say), it is only to "the lie", and those that love "the lie".  It does this in that it will ultimately destroy/exposes the foundation ("the lie") on which a person stand and how they live their life,  which is..............., the lie that there is no God and that we are not accountable to him.

The Bible just sit there waiting to be opened.  Now one of the things that God does require of the reader is that they ether believe (have faith) in the message of the cross or they don't.  If one believes then great, if one does not believe then also great.  The main issue that both those who believe and those who don't will have to one day deal with is this, the consequence of their choice (concerning the Bible).  Simple as that.


Edited by blessed (12/31/23 04:34 AM)


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28604310 - 12/31/23 08:15 AM (27 days, 22 hours ago)

Raised in a very strict religious family and I am the only non follower
I struggle to believe in a god so judgemental.
Yet tend to follow a lot of what I was taught.
I think organized religion inhibits people from thinking and being themselves.
I think things I was raised to believe as sin no longer makes sense to me.
Like premarital sex for example
I don't care who you have sex with or how
I do care if you lie, harm others and are judgemental
Religion caused me a lot of harm
But
I knew no different. I spent many years disliking myself for things I did
For years I was confused and thought I was damned for eternity
It really messes with you
It messed with me bad
The rejection is debilitating
When you're the non follower
I respect and understand others following
But I can't do it
I see so many unhappy people that stay in marriages they shouldn't and live an unfulfilled life so they can be eternally happy
Not for me


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: loladoreen] * 1
    #28604391 - 12/31/23 09:45 AM (27 days, 21 hours ago)

In contemplation or trance, we can see that the spirit has no such judgement, even if one spends the morning cussing it out beforehand. It knows nothing of it.

This is not to deny the reaping of that which is sown and the laws of things. That which is sown must be reaped in its own nature it seems, or lower nature for that inclined and likewise the higher.

'Judge not.' Sin is in judgement, the first stone and all. Writing it I'm reminded of the impossibility of doing so in the world, but we are told not to be of the world.


Edited by syncro (12/31/23 09:52 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28604397 - 12/31/23 09:49 AM (27 days, 21 hours ago)

I think the saint is signified by not expecting return from their deeds.

The priest, well, he wants to go to heaven.

If judgement isn't static it's not a sin, only an exploration, step by step. Is it still judgement if the judgment isn't static?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
    #28604415 - 12/31/23 10:00 AM (27 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

blessed said:

Lastly to call the Bible and it's message (or the sharing of it) as terrorism is an very interesting take on where you stand concerning the Bible.  First of all, no one is holding a gun to your head saying believe or you're dead.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome

Quote:

RTS begins in toxic religious environments centered around two basic narratives: "You are not okay" and "You are not safe."[6] These ideas are often enforced by theology such as the doctrines of original sin and hell.[6]

The development of RTS can be compared to the development of Complex PTSD, defined as a psychological disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in a context in which the individual has little or no chance of escape. Symptoms of RTS are a natural response to the perceived existence of a violent, all-powerful God who finds humans inherently defective, along with regular exposure to religious leaders who use the threat of eternal death, unredeemable life, demon possession and many other frightening ideas to control religious devotion and the submission of group members.[1]

Members of the LGBTQIA+ community are at particular risk of RTS and C-PTSD as they attempt, over an extended period of time, to alter their sexual orientation and gender identity to fit the expectations of authoritarian religious communities. The process of attempting to alter one's orientation can create emotionally abusive thought patterns that are prone to exacerbate the C-PTSD-like symptoms of RTS. Chronically living in fear of eternal damnation and lifelong separation from loved ones and religious communities if they fail to comply with sexual identity restrictions can induce long-term symptoms of RTS.[7][8]

Leaving
Leaving a controlling religious community, while often experienced as liberating and exciting, can be experienced as a major traumatic event. Religious communities often serve as the foundation for individuals' lives, providing social support, a coherent worldview, a sense of meaning and purpose, and social and emotional satisfaction. Leaving behind all those resources goes beyond a significant loss; it calls on the individual to completely reconstruct their reality, often while newly isolated from the help and support of family and friends who stay in the religion.[3][9][10]

In addition, when violent or threatening theology, such as a belief in hell, divine punishment, demons, and an evil "outside world," have been incorporated into the basic structure of an individual's worldview, the threats of engaging the outside world instead of remaining in the safe bubble of the controlling religious community can induce further anxiety.[1][7][9]

As individuals identify the harm they are experiencing in authoritarian religious settings, their concerns may be minimized by the religious group itself, but they can also be compounded by society's investment in positive views of religion.[3] Institutional betrayal, first at the hands of beloved religious communities, second at the hands of a world that upholds the utility of religion rather than the experiences of religious abuse survivors, can make symptoms of RTS worse.[3] People leaving religion can experience extreme hostility from their former co-religionists.[11]




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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604418 - 12/31/23 10:01 AM (27 days, 20 hours ago)

It's very traumatizing


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: loladoreen]
    #28604421 - 12/31/23 10:05 AM (27 days, 20 hours ago)

My grandmother had borderline and was split within herself the good and bad parts, and she totally identified with catholicism, was terrified of the devil. I wonder how much that fear made her split within herself.

She put that on her children, and it was really harmful.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: sudly]
    #28604481 - 12/31/23 10:52 AM (27 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think the saint is signified by not expecting return from their deeds.

The priest, well, he wants to go to heaven.

If judgement isn't static it's not a sin, only an exploration, step by step. Is it still judgement if the judgment isn't static?





If I'm interpreting correctly, this is how sin is treated in ACIM saying on one hand we are not sinners which is why some fundamentalists are against it (being spoken as Christ), but after the clarification, the term sin is used for its usual connotations of ignorance etc.

Fundamentally sin seems to be treated as static, a constant taint on us which is odd because it also gives an easy redemption of them, formalities and particular words aside.

Also ego seems to be a persistent taint, our tendency to degradation, judgement, so to me both angles can be appreciated.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28604483 - 12/31/23 10:54 AM (27 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Christians believe that the kingdom of God is within a person.



I don't see too many people today who believe that, but it is a correct reading of Christian teachings in my opinion. A lot of them misunderstand that stuff and make it into a claim about a magic eternal kingdom in an afterlife.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: syncro]
    #28604513 - 12/31/23 11:28 AM (27 days, 19 hours ago)

The traumatizing stuff we would toss in the trash, but considering the basest of men, those that would murder, steal and destroy without concern, the fire and brimstone may be be applicable as a 'Hail Mary'.

but that it was not lawfull for men to understand the knowledge of those things, because, whereas they have but a short time to live, they study mischief with all their might, and attempt all manner of wickedness; if they should be sure of a very long time, they would not spare the Gods themselves.
-Agrippa


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: blessed]
    #28604536 - 12/31/23 11:52 AM (27 days, 19 hours ago)

Babies are without sin.
There is no inherent evil inside of everyone.
Because everyone is capable of being an angel or a devil.
To seek out meaning and existence is inherent. It is part of our struggle here.
A baby that died. Is not going to hell because it wasn’t held under some water. Somebody who is mentally unfit and cannot attend mass. Is not damned for eternity.

I reject that notion.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604538 - 12/31/23 11:55 AM (27 days, 19 hours ago)

Here’s another example.

My grandmother was a deeply Catholic woman. She believed completely in God.
When she was struck down with cancer. She could not move. She laid in bed praying every day.
When the time was finally upon her. The priest from the Catholic Church grabbed his bag and went to her house. He went into her bedroom. There he performed her last rights.

Something that is not supposed to be done, unless it is in the church.
But to quote that man
“ God is with this woman, if anyone deserved these rights, it is her. Regardless of where we are.”

The rigidity to which these rules must be followed. Does not bring us closer to God. It’s a guideline. It’s a way to get you onto the path. If you stray from the path but you’re still walking it.
You’re not going to be turned away.
There’s no way that somebody who served God every day completely. Would be sent away because their last rights weren’t read to them in a church when they physically couldn’t go to it.

God would never be that cruel.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604566 - 12/31/23 12:13 PM (27 days, 18 hours ago)

Any God that would damn an unbaptized child to an eternity of torture is an evil God.
Anyone who serves such a God serves evil.


God cannot commit an act that would be evil if done by others and make it righteous just because God is the one doing it. It doesn't work that way.

Anyone with a pure heart who is not an idiot knows this without question.


Edited by Nillion (12/31/23 12:16 PM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604658 - 12/31/23 02:10 PM (27 days, 16 hours ago)

I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.

I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.

The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.

I don't feel that way.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28604661 - 12/31/23 02:14 PM (27 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.

I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.

The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.

I don't feel that way.





good points, how to be free of all that?


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: Freedom]
    #28604668 - 12/31/23 02:20 PM (27 days, 16 hours ago)

Thanks.

Only make time for equivalent exchange.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28604690 - 12/31/23 02:48 PM (27 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I think that it's evil to inflict moral injury on others, by posing hypothetical moral dilemmas, ad infinitum, so take a revisionist approach to social justice narratives.

I find that normies typically like to virtue signal, venally, to put their typical moral compass on display.

The reprobates and nihilists like to posit no-win situations, to show everyone their hopelessness, bonding by commiseration. There is no way to honor the line of inquiry without accepting some kind of imaginary loss.

I don't feel that way.



I just like to ask questions.
I don’t let people inflict moral punishment upon me without a basis in reality.
I am a good person.
Not memorizing a book isn’t going to impact that.

Someone asking a question should never threaten you on a spiritual basis. Unless there’s something wrong with you spiritually.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: The Priest vs the Saint. Are you religious, or just afraid of consequence? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28604696 - 12/31/23 02:55 PM (27 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
I just like to ask questions.





They were structured, methodically, so there was no way of a clean, win-win outcome.

Why not ask people about something that makes them happy or better?


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