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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Denying insights from trip
    #28604040 - 12/31/23 12:35 AM (28 days, 10 hours ago)

Hi, guys,

I tripped on Friday, first time in my life. It was a solo trip, looking for insights. I was alone, so I took it easy, and ate around 8gr of fresh sclerotia (tampanensis).

I have to say that I’ve been preparing for this trip for a long time, and that I am also in therapy, where we have worked through some of the issues I wanted to explore during the trip.

The trip went well. There were no visuals or thought loops at all, only what felt a plunge into my troubles (there was a lot of crying) and I got some clear and lovely answers about myself. I felt grateful for what I had received.

The things is, 24 hours later, my mood swifted suddenly, and I began having these thoughts that it was all bullshit, hogwash, that none of those things I learnt will change my life a shred. It was intense and real, and I struggled to say to myself it was not true.

Has anybody experienced this? It was like I couldn’t trust what had happened. I had this feeling it’s just my ego trying to convince me I don’t need to accept any of what I felt, that I don’t need to change. But I do actually want to change and follow the path that was glimpsed.


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28604065 - 12/31/23 02:13 AM (28 days, 9 hours ago)

If anyone wants to know about the trip, here is some extract of it. Of course, putting it in words makes it pale, but you already know this.

I ate the mushrooms with some chocolate. Meditated for 20 minutes and did some restorative yoga for another 25 minutes. By then, I was slightly nauseated. Tried to make a drawing, but limbs were too loose, so I got to bed.

I had prepared a music playlist, but I found I disliked listening to most of them. I stuck to 3 pieces and listened to them again and again.
Listening to one of these tracks triggered a lot. I am a professional musician (flute player) who turned into teaching many years ago because I never felt I had “it”. I was asking myself why I couldn’t express myself like those musicians I was hearing, why they had access to that world I couldn’t access, why could they create and I couldn’t, why I couldn't elevate myself to those places I was so desperate to reach. There were two insights about it. One, that if I want to connect with this “high, divine” world, I have to also be in touch with the lower one, the darkness, the animal, what we were before we were humans. Second, that I have to go to places that are scary, and that I don’t want to go because they are scary.

Then, I sort of went on a ramble about instruments’ character. Like, the clarinet is the goofy one, the cor anglais is always depressed, the oboe thinks it’s the clever one, and the flute is a diva. Then the bassoon is this old, wise one that looks at all of them with patience. But all of they matter. Everyone. And then I switched to “I  do matter too”. And it was such a revelation to me. I’ve always struggled with self-worth, and suddenly, there was this sound affirmation. That I mattered. Not because of what I do, give, or care for others. Just because. It mattered that I existed.

Then I was ready to go to those scary places I don’t want to go. I saw places from my childhood. I remembered those who are gone and felt I can be at peace with their memory. It was beautiful, I cried a lot. But it was soothing.
Then I began to cry like a little child. It wasn’t me crying, but the voice of a little child. Then I felt something coming up from deep inside of me and the sounds I was making turned into a baby cry. That shrinking, highed pitched, projecting sound newborn babies do. It was strong and was coming from very deep down inside me. I was able to tell the baby that she mattered. That she had always mattered, right from the beginning. I saw myself taking my own baby self off the crib, holding her in my arms and putting her into my heart, saying that I loved her, that I would care and protect her always.

After I calmed down, I went back to music. I had this other revelation of the flute being the instrument living in both the two worlds, the divine world and the animal world. Because she is the diva, but it’s also the mud, the origins.

I had also this sentence that kept coming now and then “it is not always winter”.

There are many other things, of course. But that would be the gist of it. It had A LOT of meaning to me. But as I said, yesterday evening, everything took a turn and it no longer felt truth. It felt like I had brainwashed myself and had all this nonsense go through my head. And it feels disrespectful towards the gift that the mushrooms gave me.


Edited by Lara (12/31/23 04:44 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara] * 2
    #28604112 - 12/31/23 03:50 AM (28 days, 7 hours ago)

One day, perhaps, there will be a user's manual for the brain, but we have emerged on the planet without such short cuts, and have to find our own operations guide within ourselves.

I will say this, however, because our minds are associative (meaning that what happened with what, and what else was in the same place become the structure of associative memory, as well as the basis of all our reflexes), as the context shifts you become aware of different things  reflexively; different, familiar paradigms take over when the context shifts (when you come down for instance).

So if you learn something new, even if it is extremely meaningful in the context you have learned it, it is not yet connected to other contexts, and the learned habits take over.

to achieve some change, you have to arrange to calmly bring the new idea into the familiar contexts where you can eventually expect changes in thoughts feelings words and action.

this is work. good work if you get started, and we are always at the beginning of it, like fresh students.

One way to facilitate change is to take notes and to make art but this is not always easy to do when you are busy being astonished with something new. Another thing to consider, is to keep it simple. Simple things fit more contexts, while complex things nearly never mean the same thing in new contexts.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28604137 - 12/31/23 04:47 AM (28 days, 6 hours ago)

This is very very helpful, redgreenvines.
I'll take your advice, yours are thoughtful words.

Thank you :heart:


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OfflineBlastThatBearOff
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Registered: 10/16/19
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Last seen: 6 days, 20 hours
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28604924 - 12/31/23 05:23 PM (27 days, 17 hours ago)

This is a great post.


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: BlastThatBearOff] * 1
    #28605371 - 01/01/24 02:26 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago)

Thanks!
I hope it can be useful to other people feeling the same.


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OfflineNeurotech
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Registered: 05/05/20
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Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara] * 1
    #28608454 - 01/03/24 01:10 PM (24 days, 22 hours ago)

Awesome post, TY. You didn't mention the reason you are in therapy, or what your pre-trip thinking was like. I would guess that you have been wrestling with depression for a long time. The aspect of depression I am talking about is not so much the sadness as the negative and self-deprecatory thought processes that have become habitual and that in turn drive our emotions and motivation. During the trip, the psilocin replaced and interacted with your neurotransmitters and relieved that. People have spoken about feeling immediately better after years of intractable depression after just one trip and that the feeling can last for months. But not everyone is so lucky.

What I get from your post-trip denial is a return of self-deprecatory thinking. The denial of the insights obtained is likely similar/parallel to the way that depressive thoughts pollute your mind. The pattern of thoughts you have had for many years was too easy to return to. No, you can't be worthy of existence?!? Fuck that.

I don't know if your therapist has ever taught you thought stopping. Its a CBT technique in which you learn to identify your negative thoughts, not own them. You evaluate them as to their truth and/or usefulness. And if they are not true or at worst not useful to you, you learn to stop them and to replace them with what makes more sense.  The thought stopping, in my experience both as a practitioner and as a patient, takes work and you must be consistent, never complacent, until the reality-based replacement thoughts become the new habitual neural pathway. When I used thought stopping I had to be aggressive, saying fuck you to the negative thoughts. It became much easier after a few days and after a few weeks I was essentially free of those thoughts. They surface still sometimes, but are fairly easily beaten back.

If I were you, I would work on thought identification/stopping/replacement for a few weeks and possibly dose again then. I think it is important to work on the insights of a trip in real life before tripping again. When you trip too much I feel it is disrespectful to the substance, expecting it to do all the work. Literally or more likely just figuratively, I think the shrooms get annoyed when you don't listen to what they have already taught you.

I may be way off base here, but if it resonates and you try it, I would love to hear about it whether it helps or not.

Namaste

(rereading this and RGV's post, I see different sides of the same coin. Indeed, associative processes can explain the underlying bases of this effective technique. )


Edited by Neurotech (01/03/24 01:13 PM)


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Neurotech]
    #28611102 - 01/06/24 12:23 AM (22 days, 10 hours ago)

Sorry for delaying my answer, Neurotech. It’s still holidays here and we’ve been busy with family visits and all.

Yes, I’ve been fighting negative self-talk my whole life, and no matter how I worked on it, it never improved. I tried CBT thought replacement as you suggested and also ACT therapy exercises with no improvement. It always lead to a painful fight I just have no strength to keep going anymore. However, situation is changing now, after 4 months of mantra meditation practice. A new voice has slowly appeared inside of me that seems to be able to address negative self-talk from a very compassionate place. Since the trip, this voice has gotten stronger and more present, and whenever negative self-talk arises, this voice has just the right answer and calms the other one down. This is a huge change in my life, and it is making things easier inside my mind (I tried mindfulness meditation before but it didn’t seem to work for me and it was hard to stick to it;  mantras seem to be something I can easily connec with).

I think part of my denial can be linked to this negative talk, as you stated. It’s like this voice, this part of myself says “no, you have no worth, and I won’t allow anyone or anything else make you believe the opposite”, and it’s also linked to fear from this part of myself that it will need to change and adapt, and fear for what will happen if I change. Because nothing more scary than change and not knowing where you are going. Bad self-talk is bad, bad habits are bad, but they are a known and familiar path after all.

However I decided to take a simple approach: this did happen. I felt what I felt, I thought what I thought, so there are only two options: either I ignore the results of the trip, or I work to integrate these insights into my life. Ignoring its results would mean that all the work I've been doing is meaningless, so the other way around must be the right one, unless what I want is to keep feeling like shit my whole life.

As redgreenvines adviced, I’m trying to keep it simple and trying to bring things into more contexts in my life. I distilled what happened in a few meaningful sentences, and I use them to prepare my meditations, and before I start my music practice, and I also repeat them to myself at random moments during the day: when I’m driving, or walking, or doing chores… I’ve found one of them is specially soothing.

I’ve also began to journal and make some drawings about some of the ideas.
I am a bit at a loss when it comes about how to explore that “deep down” world (I don't know how to describe it better with words) and this need for connection with it. It appeared linked to the idea of a well. I did some research on its symbolism and it’s been enlightening about the idea that was trying to be transmitted. Still don’t know how I will approach it, though.

About tripping again, I am not in a hurry. I think there is a lot to work on from what I received, and maybe, with time, I may look into it again. But not in the upcoming months. Certainly not until I feel I have better understanding and integration of what happened in this one.

Thank you and have a nice day!


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28612489 - 01/07/24 01:10 AM (21 days, 10 hours ago)

I would like to make a short note on things that seem to be improving/changing since the trip, without me putting in any conscious effort:

As I mentioned before, the compassionate voice that regulates the inner critic is stronger and more present.

I am getting more out of the house and being less resistant to move. I used to be a very active and fit person and spent lots of time outside in nature, but not anymore for the past years. It’s getting slightly better, even when I’m not pressuring myself at all.

It’s easier to get out of bed.

Sleep is improving. I’ve been dealing with insomnia for the past few years, but the last week I have been waking up way less, like once at night or not at all, and if I do wake up, I can get back to sleep in a while instead of staying fully awake for hours (that has only happened once).

In moments where I would usually let go to impulses, like when I’m tired, in a bad mood, frustrated, etc. I’m able to stop myself and choose a better reaction. Specially, with my child (she’s almost 4), when there is conflict, I am able to stop and think instead of reacting, and choose a response that will be beneficial. I sometimes find myself thinking “how my baby me would have liked to be treated in this situation” and act in line with that.

I'd like to see whether these changes stay with me when holidays are over and I'm back to work (next wednesday)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28614135 - 01/08/24 01:56 PM (19 days, 21 hours ago)

the list of little improvements is terrific.
you can be our Poster Girl :lol:


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28614790 - 01/09/24 04:38 AM (19 days, 6 hours ago)

Hahaahahaa :thumbup:


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OfflineAlyssa
consecrated woman ✝️
Female
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28615819 - 01/09/24 10:39 PM (18 days, 12 hours ago)

Lara, you seem like you can be reasoned with. There's no logical argument for believing the reckless atheists who try to convince people there's something inherently useful about taking psychedelics. At the end of the day, they're simple molecules compared with the immense complexity of the human nervous system. What they do is relatively inconsequential when you can fall asleep, have a cute dream about something beautiful and wake up hopeful. That's all that gets us through this mortal life. Avoiding the struggle is privilege at the expense of someone else's physical suffering, often in war.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28617329 - 01/11/24 07:57 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

I am a bit at a loss when it comes about how to explore that “deep down” world (I don't know how to describe it better with words) and this need for connection with it. It appeared linked to the idea of a well. I did some research on its symbolism and it’s been enlightening about the idea that was trying to be transmitted. Still don’t know how I will approach it, though.




I think psychedelics have a strong relationship to the unconscious. During my first mushroom explorations I felt like it was a sort of "digging" process to reach something "down there," which is not too different from picturing it as a well. Psychedelics demonstrate there is a lot going on in the brain which we are not directly, consciously in control of.

It's been interesting to read about Jung's ideas (there's a useful summary in a book called The Essential Jung edited by Anthony Storr). In general you could say that psychedelics allow you to experience the psyche more fully, without being restricted to the part which you normally think of as "me." You could think of a trip as weakening the boundary between the unconscious and your everyday conscious experience.

I think an important aspect of Jung's thoughts was that this type of inner communication is often imagistic or symbolic, and not to be taken literally. The same applies to psychedelic insights - they are not meaningless but do need a bit of interpretation, integration, reflection. They give you a different perspective on your life, but it's up to you to do something useful with that insight.

I find the introspection on psychedelics can become quite harsh at higher doses, but eventually a feeling of acceptance comes in, along with that feeling of compassion you talk about. I think sometimes you need to be kind to yourself, be more forgiving of your own faults in the same way you don't expect others to be perfect. This type of inner negativity becomes more obvious during a trip.

It sounds like you are thinking your way through all this and finding something positive from the trip. :peace:

:slowpoke:


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Aldebaran]
    #28619373 - 01/13/24 04:57 AM (15 days, 6 hours ago)

I think you’re right on the spot regarding the relationship between psychedelics and unconscious and the symbolic language. That’s how it felt and feels for me.
I read a couple of Jung’s  books when I was young, but I think I never truly grasped the meaning of it all, so I appreciate the recommendation and I will get a copy of the book you mention.


Quote:

Aldebaran said:


along with that feeling of compassion you talk about. I think sometimes you need to be kind to yourself, be more forgiving of your own faults in the same way you don't expect others to be perfect.




^THIS. Absolutely. It's been such a shift in my brain I'm in awe.

Thanks!


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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28619378 - 01/13/24 05:09 AM (15 days, 6 hours ago)

How are things after a few days back to work.

(I don’t know, maybe it gets tiring to you, to read my rambles, but I’m trying to use these lists as a reminder to my negative/critic side, that the trip not only was real but that it is actually spreading through my life)

First of all, I’m glad to say, sleep continues to be good. This has been a major problem for the past years, but I’m starting to feel more positive about it. I had a couple of rough nights because the kid was sick and kept waking up at night and when the day came I had a positive feeling that I would be fine even with poor sleep.

Also, when back to work:

I’ve noticed changes in how I engage with my students and their struggles, and the music they are playing. I’m not sure whether they’re noticing the change. Not that I wasn’t positive and supportive before, but inside my mind has been a clear shift. I feel less mentally tired at the end of the classes. I find it easier to give musical advice, and I feel more confident when I play to give examples.

Then, changes in how I engage with my coworkers. I feel like I’m more social and chill with the ones I get on well (might be only a subjective impression and they probably perceive me the same), and it seems that I don’t care that much now about the people who obviously don’t like me. Not that I’m treating them differently, it’s my inside feeling and thought pattern about them what has changed.

Regarding my playing, this is MASSIVE. Some things were beginning to change before the trip, but now is definitely different: I have stopped all types of technique work and also have been away from repertoire that I wanted to tackle, and instead I’ve focused on a tiny old book that contains simple melodies from operas, lieds, or popular songs, and I just play them as beautifully as I can, again and again, trying to improve the phrasing and the feeling every time. I had been doing this on and off for a while, but now all my focus is on that, and I’m noticing how my playing is shifting to a more free and joyful experience. Sometimes, I will play random passages or excerpts from repertoire, and music seems to flow by itself, I just let myself play, with no intentions, and music appears in unexpected places. I remember what I read long ago in Nachmanovitch and Werner’s books, and I feel I’m getting closer to those experiences they described playing should be about. I don’t have words enough to describe how much happiness this is bringing into my life.

So, not that my life feels solved in anyway, I won’t say everything is peachy, but many areas are getting just… lighter.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28620005 - 01/13/24 04:58 PM (14 days, 18 hours ago)

glad you are in the swing of it now :wink:


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineNeurotech
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Registered: 05/05/20
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara] * 1
    #28622178 - 01/15/24 01:19 PM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

"Regarding my playing, this is MASSIVE. Some things were beginning to change before the trip, but now is definitely different: I have stopped all types of technique work and also have been away from repertoire that I wanted to tackle, and instead I’ve focused on a tiny old book that contains simple melodies from operas, lieds, or popular songs, and I just play them as beautifully as I can, again and again, trying to improve the phrasing and the feeling every time. I had been doing this on and off for a while, but now all my focus is on that, and I’m noticing how my playing is shifting to a more free and joyful experience. Sometimes, I will play random passages or excerpts from repertoire, and music seems to flow by itself, I just let myself play, with no intentions, and music appears in unexpected places. I remember what I read long ago in Nachmanovitch and Werner’s books, and I feel I’m getting closer to those experiences they described playing should be about. I don’t have words enough to describe how much happiness this is bringing into my life."

It brings me joy to read this. While just a "hobby", playing music (guitar, hand drums, keyboard) is very important to me. Most very evening after a work, I grab one of my guitars off the wall or a djembe and play in the family room for 1/2 hour to an hour. If I don't get that chance, I will likely stay downstairs for 20 minutes to play after my wife heads up to bed. If a few days have gone by where I don't choose to play, it is likely that something is wrong in my life. To a fault, I have never been exacting, have never had formal training. (I have taken the time to be a bit more structured and to learn these past few years - self-indulgent playing can wear on people lol.) I enjoy improvising, creating and most of all the passion and expression. I especially like cannabis for playing. A good solo jam can be so involving, so all-engrossing and keeps me in the moment like nothing else besides sex or meditation or psychedelics. Indeed, I am left with an afterglow. On a good evening, that is when I am most involved, I get into a space where I no longer have to think about how to play. It's like the guitar and my fingers play themselves and I can be both the player and the observer, one with the music. Sometimes I get nothing - can only play the same old stuff and maybe some scales. But I know that you have to be in it to win it. Writing this, I see that my attitude toward playing is much the same as my approach to psychedelics - go with the flow, create and observe - and sometimes you get more than other times. But you gotta be in it to win it.

That being said, I love seeing how the aftereffects of your trip took some time to develop. Sometimes you can't really judge the effect of insights and changes as soon as the trip is over. It takes some time to unravel.

TY for your posts.

PS - Thank you for turning me on to Nachmanovitch and Werner. Loved these:



Namaste


Edited by Neurotech (01/15/24 01:25 PM)


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Lara]
    #28623426 - 01/16/24 12:25 PM (11 days, 22 hours ago)

The same happens to me. I second guess the trip. Maybe I invented the whole thing. That nagging thought is always there. So I just accept it is what I need at this moment. If I am tricking myself, so be it. When I am ready, I will see through the illusion. The universe will wake me up when I am ready. Good luck :smile:


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28623463 - 01/16/24 12:48 PM (11 days, 22 hours ago)

Nice read all around.

May a song be heard as the gentlest winds brush to the ear.


--------------------
Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!!

Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.



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InvisibleLara
Lost Wolverine
Registered: 08/24/22
Posts: 40
Re: Denying insights from trip [Re: Neurotech]
    #28630856 - 01/22/24 10:01 AM (6 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:

It brings me joy to read this. While just a "hobby", playing music (guitar, hand drums, keyboard) is very important to me. Most very evening after a work, I grab one of my guitars off the wall or a djembe and play in the family room for 1/2 hour to an hour. If I don't get that chance, I will likely stay downstairs for 20 minutes to play after my wife heads up to bed. If a few days have gone by where I don't choose to play, it is likely that something is wrong in my life. To a fault, I have never been exacting, have never had formal training. (I have taken the time to be a bit more structured and to learn these past few years - self-indulgent playing can wear on people lol.) I enjoy improvising, creating and most of all the passion and expression. I especially like cannabis for playing. A good solo jam can be so involving, so all-engrossing and keeps me in the moment like nothing else besides sex or meditation or psychedelics. Indeed, I am left with an afterglow. On a good evening, that is when I am most involved, I get into a space where I no longer have to think about how to play. It's like the guitar and my fingers play themselves and I can be both the player and the observer, one with the music. Sometimes I get nothing - can only play the same old stuff and maybe some scales. But I know that you have to be in it to win it. Writing this, I see that my attitude toward playing is much the same as my approach to psychedelics - go with the flow, create and observe - and sometimes you get more than other times. But you gotta be in it to win it.

That being said, I love seeing how the aftereffects of your trip took some time to develop. Sometimes you can't really judge the effect of insights and changes as soon as the trip is over. It takes some time to unravel.

TY for your posts.





Hi, sorry for taking so much time to type an answer. Kid got a bad cold, passed it on to me, and well, a whole week of horror :smile:

It's nice to hear your experience and I'm glad that music brings so much joy into your life. I think that not having formal training is good in some way, because many, many times, music will get sucked out of you. There are many good places and good teachers, but the obsession -literally, obsession- with good pitch, good sound, perfect rhythm, perfect cleanness, etc. that classical music training pursues, causes many musicians to end up feeling empty. It certainly happened to me. Werner (I'm glad that you enjoyed the video; it's a good one to hear the basics of his proposal) works at the Berklee college of music, and there is an obvious reason why he is there: because of what happens to musicians that decide to follow a professional path. I've been struggling with this for the past 20 years, feeling it was never enough. And while I understood what he explained, I just couldn't let go from expectations, running commentaries, etc. I can now. My mind is in silence while I play. And there is a weight that has been lifted from my shoulders, and music has become joy. I don't know what will happen from now on, when I'll need to prepare for a full concert or when I'll face some challenging piece, but I stand on a better ground now.

Regarding the aftereffects, it's not anymore a change inside me. Boyfriend said it's noticeable, that I'm calmer and more positive, and that I complain less :'D  Went to a couple of therapy sessions after the trip (therapist knows) and said we will start to see each other only a couple times a month now, since I made a step up.


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