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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Poll: Distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion...
    #28603187 - 12/30/23 10:13 AM (28 days, 8 hours ago)

Should the Spirituality & Mysticism forum have subcategories for "Spirituality", "Mysticism", and "Religion"?

Poll added below in this thread here.

-

That was an interesting discussion, the (desired) distinctions between mysticism and spirituality even though a few posts per day in here if we're lucky would not seem to justify splitting the forum. edit: (I thought Mods deleted the other thread but they didn't.) That was a good post by Solar at the end I thought, but disagreed with with some use of terminology.



Edited by syncro (01/01/24 06:43 PM)


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28603732 - 12/30/23 07:08 PM (28 days, 2 minutes ago)

Ha, thanks syncro. I deleted the post, because I didn't want to create acrimony. I know a lot of people on here take yoga/meditation/philosophy very seriously, but since you found the post good, I'll repost it here below:

**

The split between the Philosophy, Sociology, and Psychology (PS&P) forum from the Spirituality & Mysticism (S&M) forum, I believe has not only made conversation more conducive for both communities, but--more importantly--also for the much more numerous general public "lurkers" to get relevant information.

The latter is important.

Shroomery is not just a community, but a resource for the general public who are often scared, uncertain, and lost. Critically, it is particularly a resource for those at pivotal transformative periods of their lives, in their late teens or early twenties, when a lot is changing. The general public would benefit from having a resource that clearly organizes information into relevant categories.

The split between PS&P and S&M forums has enabled spiritual & mystical lurkers to not have to exhaustively sift through the nonsense of information published by pseudoskeptics in order to get to the wisdom of actual experiencers.

In the past, lurkers were overwhelmed with needless negativity by PS&P posters who, in their childish rebellion against the dogmatic religion, throw out the mystical baby with the bathwater. This was completely avoidable, and the split between the forums somewhat solved the problem.

Not exactly though.

Currently, there's a "new" problem - namely, the conflation between spirituality & mysticism. While spirituality can be mystical, not all spirituality is mystical. Creation of subcategories for this forum is warranted to reveal the difference.

Spirituality - more focused on pro-social forms of self-entertainment and community, such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and philosophy. More interested in being part of a "feel good", pop "movement".

Mysticism - focused on direct experience of the divine in mystical experience. More interested in a hermetic lifestyle based on devotional pursuit of the ineffable.

Mystical experience is characterized by one or more of the following:
- Ineffability - the inability to explain one's experience; transcendence of words
- Alteration in sense of space & time
- Feelings of unity and interconnectedness with reality
- Noetic understanding - conviction that what one is seeing is the "ultimate reality" - the experiencer cannot be reasoned with despite perhaps "evidence" to the contrary (see "delusions of reference" vs. "ideas of reference")

Needless to say, the difference between spirituality and mysticism couldn't be more stark. Conflating the two together not only punishes people who want to read content that is mystical and not spiritual (or vice versa), it also does a great disservice to public education. This, in my view, makes it unacceptable to continue to house the two groups as if they are the same.

How do I create a poll on making Spirituality & Mysticism subcategories of this forum?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


Edited by solarshroomster (12/30/23 07:14 PM)


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28603912 - 12/30/23 09:35 PM (27 days, 21 hours ago)

I find something ironic in this approach. The way you attempt to categorize these things thus far appears too problematic for moderation, and more apropos to the philosophy forum. Maybe that is the place where the categories appropriate to other discussions on the shroomery are best worked out. Shall the philosophically inclined impose their distinctions here?

Quote:

transcendence of words




Let's say a Mysticism subforum existed within the spirituality forum, reflecting the traditional tendency for religions to foster more mystical subsets in their populations. What sort of content would be appropriate there?

As I recall, the primary issue cleaving the P,S&P from S&M back in the day was the invitation of challenging. Over there people are welcome to move against your words. Over here people are encouraged to move with you. What needs to change?


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28604115 - 12/31/23 03:53 AM (27 days, 15 hours ago)

Oh ok, you deleted it and I accused the mods. :grin:

"yoga, mindfulness meditation, and philosophy", "feel good"

I think my being surprised at the use of these terms can be summed up in frOg, pOnd, plOp! That is tathata which is mindfulness, which is yoga, these certainly pointing to and bringing that ineffable. It is philosophical, from Buddhism, and we all I thought were having a good time talking about it, feeling good.


Edited by syncro (12/31/23 03:54 AM)


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: syncro]
    #28604124 - 12/31/23 04:09 AM (27 days, 15 hours ago)

Anyway I also don't want to force carrying on the topic if you were done with it. :peace:


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28604237 - 12/31/23 07:11 AM (27 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Shall the philosophically inclined impose their distinctions here?




The purely "philosophically inclined" who lack direct mystical experience and a dedication to it, don't have an ability or a frame of reference to add to this discussion. They should stay in the PS&P forum and, if they are open to "other ways of knowing", can frequent the Spirituality forum. Not the Mysticism subforum, which will only be available to those who speak PURELY from direct experience and a dedication to it.

While the Spirituality subforum will consist more of people who get their understanding from "book learning" and "popular media", the Mysticism subforum will consist more of people who get their understanding from private, direct experience. See the difference?

Philosophical thinkers would be welcomed in the Spirituality subforum, as it's a misconception that S&M isn't open to debate (see this very post). Spiritual thinkers can and do debate with one another (as a cursory scroll through this forum will reveal). However, all too often, the debates revolve around what one person read in a book or determined through conscious analysis -- this kind of thinking would be welcomed in a Spirituality subforum, but not a Mysticism subforum.

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Let's say a Mysticism subforum existed within the spirituality forum, reflecting the traditional tendency for religions to foster more mystical subsets in their populations. What sort of content would be appropriate there?




Great question! Already alluded to earlier just above, but in a mystical subforum, we would discuss more esoteric concepts of reality and our direct experience of it, such as the nature of "beings" in NDEs, downloads of "blocks of knowledge", "one becoming two", bilocation, monopsychism, delusions of reference, tricks of time, reality talking to you, and so forth.

If you had to look up any of those terms, that's precisely illustrates how they are esoteric and, as such, should not be conflated with exoteric spiritual "activities", such as yoga, mindfulness meditation, and philosophy -- all of which are popular, pro-social, "feel good" activities.

Experiences that would traditionally get one labeled as "psychotic" would find a better home in the Mysticism subforum than the Spirituality subforum.

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
As I recall, the primary issue cleaving the P,S&P from S&M back in the day was the invitation of challenging. Over there people are welcome to move against your words. Over here people are encouraged to move with you. What needs to change?




It's traditionally understood that PS&P cleaved from S&M back in the day because of the invitation of "challenging". That's not exactly the case, and it's important to address this. The issue was that S&M people had to be inundated by people who, frankly, weren't able to be open to other forms of experience and were still stuck in their old "teenage rebel against religion" days. In short, the S&M people matured past the "high school cafeteria atheist" phase, and needed a like-minded community of people who appreciated "other ways of knowing" beyond just the scientific method. How would you feel if you had a direct experience or philosophical opening towards something and had to sift through an inundation of comments like, "religion is just for people who are afraid of the dark!", "you really think God is some guy in the sky with a beard!", "confirmation bias [or insert any other thought fallacy"!

The way of the pseudoskeptic is tried and true, and it abounds all over the internet, with vindictiveness and anger towards anyone who dares to have so much as a spiritual thought. When people write that the S&M people simply didn't want to be "challenged", it makes it appear as if the blame was on the S&M people and not the PS&P people for their constant (wrongful) derision.

What needs to change now is that there needs to be a separation based on people who are merely interested in "something more" and those who have actually transcended and experienced "something more".

The split between PS&P and S&M already meaningfully separated people who were mature enough to be open to "other ways" of knowing from those who weren't. At this point, however, a subcategorization is needed to distinguish between esoteric and exoteric, hermetic and popular, direct experience and book reading, delusions of reference and ideas of reference, noetic conviction and philosophical analysis.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: syncro]
    #28604250 - 12/31/23 07:25 AM (27 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Oh ok, you deleted it and I accused the mods. :grin:

"yoga, mindfulness meditation, and philosophy", "feel good"

I think my being surprised at the use of these terms can be summed up in frOg, pOnd, plOp! That is tathata which is mindfulness, which is yoga, these certainly pointing to and bringing that ineffable. It is philosophical, from Buddhism, and we all I thought were having a good time talking about it, feeling good.




frOg
pOnd
plOp!

is about direct experience of "being a frog", "being a pond", and "being a plop!", but it is also philosophical, from Buddhism, and about what you mentioned. In this sense, it could be part of the Spirituality subforum or Mystical subforum, depending on the angle it is presented. If it leaned towards being philosophical, it should go in the Spirituality subforum; more experiential, the Mystical subforum. If both, it would just be in the Spirituality subforum.

Again, the Mystical subforum is based more on esoteric direct experience, not philosophical thinking.

I'm not implying that the Spirituality subforum should be any lesser than the Mystical subforum, but more that they are two different avenues of thought, different "ways of knowing". I intend on participating in both. When I want to engage in exoteric, community-building activities, I'm going to focus on Spirituality. When I want to delve into the esoteric, direct experience, and the hermetic, I'm going to learn from Mysticism.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28604324 - 12/31/23 08:29 AM (27 days, 10 hours ago)

Your points are well made. Also I think the esoterically inclined considering themselves as having some experience and learning, see in the exoteric the esoteric. To me when we cover various texts, if worthy (appealing), the words translate to the essence. 

Everything must source in the Ideas which created them. From currently reading Agrippa,

These kinds of operations therefore are performed in these inferiour things by express forms, and in the Heavens by disposing vertues, in Intelligencies by mediating rules, in the original Cause by Idea's, and exemplary forms, all which must of necessity agree in the execution of the effect, and vertue of every thing.

I wouldn't be reading and talking about texts if not in the exercise of revealing the essence, distractions notwithstanding. Also, enjoyment itself is the essence, appreciation. Joy is occult, elusive here in the running wheel. It is equivalent to inner power.

I understand your distinctions as well.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28604327 - 12/31/23 08:35 AM (27 days, 10 hours ago)

Am I understanding correctly: reading about direct experience isn't any good, that's spirituality. So to fix this, we should make a forum where we can only read about direct experience?

:crazy2:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: Kickle]
    #28604474 - 12/31/23 10:48 AM (27 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Am I understanding correctly: reading about direct experience isn't any good, that's spirituality. So to fix this, we should make a forum where we can only read about direct experience?

:crazy2:



No, you are not understanding correctly, despite receiving two "likes". :wink:

There should be a subforum for people who only want to read about direct experience and their implications only with those who have recently had a direct experience. It's not the act of reading that is bad, it's the act of preventing one from just strictly reading about direct experience from direct experiencers that is bad, such as is the case with mixing Spirituality in with Mysticism.

You're confusing a subset of things with the set itself. All discussion on direct experience can be read, but not all that can be read is based on direct experience.

When all that can be read is a word salad of direct experiencers ("mystics") and non-direct experiencers ("spiritualists"), public education is done a great disservice.

There should be a subforum dedicated to where people can discuss their private direct experiences and not have to be interrupted by philosophical speculation from people who haven't directly experienced anything themselves but are just going off of "what feels good", as taught by their spiritual teachers and books. This seriously derails what could otherwise be VERY productive mystical conversations. Intuitive connections that could be made are stymied by this.

For the avoidance of doubt, Kickle, I always respect what you have to say a lot. I think your words do come from direct experience, and it's why I always look forward to your messages. It's, in fact, why I want your thoughts on my own mystical thoughts and books--because you come from what I find to be a very experienced position. Not sure how frequently you take entheogens, but either way... whatever spiritual or mystical strain you hit, resonates often enough with me. I take no offense to you or syncro disagreeing with me.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28604501 - 12/31/23 11:11 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago)

Uh huh. Do you think the majority of posts here come from somewhere other than the posters experience?


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: Kickle]
    #28604514 - 12/31/23 11:29 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Uh huh. Do you think the majority of posts here come from somewhere other than the posters experience?




The majority look like they are informed by direct experience with the divine, but some posts do not suggest direct experience, and those posts need to be tagged differently. I've laid the definitions down very clearly what distinguishes Spirituality from Mysticism, and I haven't seen anyone else describe how those two concepts are the same--when they are so different categories, what exactly is controversial about subcategorizing other than it's something new?

If they are referring to distinct (albeit overlapping) populations, a subcategorization would greatly benefit public education.

As it stands, the public is getting confused into conflating the two concepts, and the mix-match of spiritual exoteric ideas with mystical esoteric ideas just muddies the waters for people who are often lost, confused, and seeking help.

I mean, think about it, why don't we call this forum, Spirituality, Mysticism & Religion?

Perhaps we felt that it was worth distinguishing Religion from Spirituality & Mysticism? Or maybe we didn't want to mention Religion for some reason? I'm making the same kind of claim between Spirituality and Mysticism. Why don't we just call this forum Spirituality? Why not just Mysticism?


Edited by solarshroomster (12/31/23 11:39 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28604526 - 12/31/23 11:45 AM (27 days, 7 hours ago)

what exactly is controversial about subcategorizing other than it's something new?

Moderation is often subjective in forums with the clearest of rules. And there is constant kick back about mods not being objective enough. Understandably as people are usually not trying to break rules, they are just being themselves. People see situations in unique ways and the moderator gets to have the judgement call. As a result a moderator is selected as possessing well suited judgement when representing a community. This way, when a judgement call is made, it doesn't destroy a community but strengthens it and reinforces the validity of its members.

Now in the case of segmenting based on experience... Just, yikes. A moderator declaring someone's experience as not mystical enough just smacks of a superiority complex IMHO.

For example your definition of spirituality as pop culture rings that way in my ears. The dismissal of tried and true practices. The broad undermining of the values of members of this forum. Etc.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: Kickle]
    #28604548 - 12/31/23 12:00 PM (27 days, 7 hours ago)

Sorry syncro, I missed the point that you didn't want this to turn into a discussion on creating a new forum, so I'll end that debate. Do you see any difference in the terms "spirituality", "mysticism", and "religion"?


Edited by solarshroomster (12/31/23 12:28 PM)


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28604603 - 12/31/23 12:53 PM (27 days, 6 hours ago)

No I thought the mods didn't want that when they deleted it, which they didn't. Don't feel the need to remove posting on my account.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: Kickle]
    #28604627 - 12/31/23 01:21 PM (27 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Moderation is often subjective in forums with the clearest of rules. And there is constant kick back about mods not being objective enough. Understandably as people are usually not trying to break rules, they are just being themselves. People see situations in unique ways and the moderator gets to have the judgement call. As a result a moderator is selected as possessing well suited judgement when representing a community. This way, when a judgement call is made, it doesn't destroy a community but strengthens it and reinforces the validity of its members.




This forum has been around a long time. At certain times in the past it had earned a notorious reputation in terms of moderation. I don't want to get into the details of that, but I can say that the moderation today appears largely excellent. Moderation is also like parenting and in that sense this is a large and diverse community or family. I don't envy mods but I appreciate them. I believe that those in service of the site today display good judgement.

There are a number of idioms about trying to please everybody, all of them basically say that it can't be done.


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: Nillion]
    #28604749 - 12/31/23 03:34 PM (27 days, 3 hours ago)

No one is asking a moderator to stick their neck out and say what gets to classify as "mystical", "spiritual", or "religious". I am simply asking for the ability to allow one to subcategorize their posts, and for the public to be able to filter posts by those subcategories. That's why I've been explicit about saying it's a "good faith" effort on the part of the poster to subcategorize their own posts. Guidelines can be reasonably suggested in the header to each subcategory.

This should, in theory, be a net positive for everyone.

As it stands, there are meaningful differences between Spirituality, Mysticism, and Religion. And if we are going to start conflating Spirituality & Mysticism, we might as well add Religion to the bucket as well. The word "Religion" is conspicuously missing from this forum's name. Why isn't it called "Spirituality, Mysticism & Religion"? Is there a superiority complex against religiously-minded people, when religion is also a "tried" and "true" practice?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28604770 - 12/31/23 03:47 PM (27 days, 3 hours ago)

There is a place for personal categorizations and no moderation:

User Created

These forums are created and managed by supporters from within the Shroomery community. Some forums may contain inaccurate, offensive, or objectionable content. Our staff does not regularly supervise or moderate user-created forums and we do not vouch for the information within. If you are looking for a more curated and predictable experience, you may wish to pursue our official forums instead.

As for the forum name, it goes back to 2005 when the two forums were one. I think it went for a vote in the moderator forum at that time, and the moderators at that time picked it. I think the existing combined forum nomenclature had a lot to do with the new forums name. Who knows? It predates my involvement. But the name mostly carried over from the combined forums name.

Posts about religion are fine to make here. As long as they are within the overarching forum rules.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28604776 - 12/31/23 03:53 PM (27 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Do you see any difference in the terms "spirituality", "mysticism", and "religion"?




They could be seen as exoteric, middling, and esoteric, like the threefold qualities and many things in threes. They could be seen as three in one, like the Russian dolls contained, the largest or most profound ruling the others.

Impulsively I would like to make them one, but the distinctions can be useful. The ritual, say, can take the subtle form, and that into the profound.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Discussion, distinctions between mysticism, spirituality, religion... [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28604799 - 12/31/23 04:01 PM (27 days, 3 hours ago)

I think its a pretty bold claim to say that yoga and mindfulness meditation aren't connected to mystical experiences

one time I had a unity experience while drinking and dancing to punk music (I literally was everything), i can see how the alcohol and the dancing could have played a role in making that experience more likely to happen.


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