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Invisibleloladoreen
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Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,333
Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 2
    #28603175 - 12/30/23 09:58 AM (29 days, 5 hours ago)

Debating someone's choice of words, opinions etc takes away from the point.
Addiction is life threatening for many. Affects almost everyone. Society is greatly affected.
Demonizing addiction enforces the barrier of the addicted to move forward, access services, etc
Many people find ways out. Many perish
The importance of the post is stop demonizing it


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
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Registered: 09/30/11
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Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 1
    #28603224 - 12/30/23 11:28 AM (29 days, 3 hours ago)

I like the overall message of your post, Toastman.  :heart:
Addiction is conditioned to be a shameful thing because it shows weakness, and society prefers strength over weakness.
But overcoming addiction is a sign of strength, so it kind of comes full circle in a way.
I'm not a big fan of the huge amounts of random stock images you're posting here, it distracts from the beautiful point you are trying to make.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


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Invisiblebirdeatingspider
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Re: Addiction [Re: koraks] * 3
    #28603235 - 12/30/23 11:43 AM (29 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
There's a problem with your reading comprehension, it seems. I'm going to put it very clearly here, one more time. Maybe when you've managed to get yourself together a little bit after this massive meltdown you can give it another go trying to wrap your head around a few simple things.

Addiction and a passion for art, science etc. have very little in common apart from involving repetitive behaviors. So do pooping, breathing, sunrise and apparently posting on forums.

Anyone who struggles with addiction in my view deserves compassion, support and help in hopefully recovering a degree of autonomy that allows them to lead a productive, fulfilling and happy life.

Anyone who struggles with addiction and cannot or does not want to attempt to recover still deserves the same basic respect, compassion etc. as any other human being.

Being addicted is not so much a choice, as an involuntary pattern that's hard to break. In my native language, the common word for addiction actually transliterates into 'enslavement'. I think that's an appropriate term.

Notwithstanding the above, the path towards addiction involves voluntary choices. For these choices, one should take responsibility. Without this responsibility, becoming addicted would be a twist of fate. And if that's the case, recovery is a similar twist of fate one has no influence on. Not taking responsibility for the first steps that lead to addiction will make the process of recovery very difficult and any recovery unsustainable.

Every society in human history has recognized addiction as a problem for the individual and their social context. That's why measures to prevent addiction are codified in every major religion and legal system. They're massive big flashing warning signs that say "DO NOT GO THERE". Warning signs serve a purpose.

Any attempt to normalize the path towards addiction or deny the responsibility in taking steps on that path are ultimately counter-productive erosions of the massive warning signs that we NEED in order to have the best chance of a reasonably happy and fulfilling life.

This leaves us with the dichotomy of having to respect and help those who struggle with addiction, and at the same time vehemently discourage and warn those who might start on a path towards it. We have to do both at the same time.

I can't put it any clearer than that. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I hope you find a new balance in life that puts you in a better place than you evidently are now.




I'm seeing a pattern of black and white thinking- on the topic of psychology, that won't fly.
As the OP says, what some call passion, others obsession. Other examples:

Some are brilliant, others are deranged.
Some a high functioning addict, to others simply self medicating.

There is a difference between 'normalizing ' and 'de-stigmatizing'.

The latter eliminates the shame and self hatred, that these very programs built to keep kids off drugs, have contributed to.


Addiction has many unique causes for individuals, as you have stated. Which implies that we are dealing with a spectrum here, not one way or another.

Shame and self hatred, feelings of worthlessness or not belonging or having anything to contribute to society.. these are some of the big examples as to why people fall into, and become trapped in addiction.

The current way teaches kids to not only think the worst of selves if they experience addiction, and it also teaches the next malleable generation how to view addicts.
Hell, even some drugs are 'harder' and extra dangerous, stay away.

This set up has the unfortunate effect of giving depressed or anxious, hopeless, etc people, a reason to do drugs.
For those already in the throws of it, there's little to no desire or intense shame keeping them from getting help.
Most addicts want help, IME!

IIRC, you have self identify as a moderate?
The logical attack on addiction would be centralized:

Dismantle the hard edged, Nixon-era thinking, criminalizing addicts, etc.
And take the word 'addict' or 'junkie', etc and change the stereotype.

Simultaneously, tone down the villainizing of what we teach to our children, and population that has not tried them yet.
Instead offer up to date, real info that teaches, instead of instilling fear.

No one has said not to warn the kids, but I think along with the debasing stereotypes, the vilified content, it is overbearing on our youth.

That same group you say would "NEED" something from this current way?
There will be another group that sees how big a deal drugs are.. it breeds curiousity.

Gradual changes to the current, outdated system, will give us an idea if we are headed in the right direction.
But somethings gotta give. And it needs to start with some serious changes to our current, fixed attitude towards addiction.


--------------------

From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,333
Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #28603253 - 12/30/23 12:01 PM (29 days, 3 hours ago)

Your not wrong


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 5,589
Re: Addiction [Re: birdeatingspider] * 2
    #28603281 - 12/30/23 12:29 PM (29 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

birdeatingspider said:
Quote:

koraks said:
There's a problem with your reading comprehension, it seems. I'm going to put it very clearly here, one more time. Maybe when you've managed to get yourself together a little bit after this massive meltdown you can give it another go trying to wrap your head around a few simple things.

Addiction and a passion for art, science etc. have very little in common apart from involving repetitive behaviors. So do pooping, breathing, sunrise and apparently posting on forums.

Anyone who struggles with addiction in my view deserves compassion, support and help in hopefully recovering a degree of autonomy that allows them to lead a productive, fulfilling and happy life.

Anyone who struggles with addiction and cannot or does not want to attempt to recover still deserves the same basic respect, compassion etc. as any other human being.

Being addicted is not so much a choice, as an involuntary pattern that's hard to break. In my native language, the common word for addiction actually transliterates into 'enslavement'. I think that's an appropriate term.

Notwithstanding the above, the path towards addiction involves voluntary choices. For these choices, one should take responsibility. Without this responsibility, becoming addicted would be a twist of fate. And if that's the case, recovery is a similar twist of fate one has no influence on. Not taking responsibility for the first steps that lead to addiction will make the process of recovery very difficult and any recovery unsustainable.

Every society in human history has recognized addiction as a problem for the individual and their social context. That's why measures to prevent addiction are codified in every major religion and legal system. They're massive big flashing warning signs that say "DO NOT GO THERE". Warning signs serve a purpose.

Any attempt to normalize the path towards addiction or deny the responsibility in taking steps on that path are ultimately counter-productive erosions of the massive warning signs that we NEED in order to have the best chance of a reasonably happy and fulfilling life.

This leaves us with the dichotomy of having to respect and help those who struggle with addiction, and at the same time vehemently discourage and warn those who might start on a path towards it. We have to do both at the same time.

I can't put it any clearer than that. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I hope you find a new balance in life that puts you in a better place than you evidently are now.




I'm seeing a pattern of black and white thinking- on the topic of psychology, that won't fly.
As the OP says, what some call passion, others obsession. Other examples:

Some are brilliant, others are deranged.
Some a high functioning addict, to others simply self medicating.

There is a difference between 'normalizing ' and 'de-stigmatizing'.

The latter eliminates the shame and self hatred, that these very programs built to keep kids off drugs, have contributed to.


Addiction has many unique causes for individuals, as you have stated. Which implies that we are dealing with a spectrum here, not one way or another.

Shame and self hatred, feelings of worthlessness or not belonging or having anything to contribute to society.. these are some of the big examples as to why people fall into, and become trapped in addiction.

The current way teaches kids to not only think the worst of selves if they experience addiction, and it also teaches the next malleable generation how to view addicts.
Hell, even some drugs are 'harder' and extra dangerous, stay away.

This set up has the unfortunate effect of giving depressed or anxious, hopeless, etc people, a reason to do drugs.
For those already in the throws of it, there's little to no desire or intense shame keeping them from getting help.
Most addicts want help, IME!

IIRC, you have self identify as a moderate?
The logical attack on addiction would be centralized:

Dismantle the hard edged, Nixon-era thinking, criminalizing addicts, etc.
And take the word 'addict' or 'junkie', etc and change the stereotype.

Simultaneously, tone down the villainizing of what we teach to our children, and population that has not tried them yet.
Instead offer up to date, real info that teaches, instead of instilling fear.

No one has said not to warn the kids, but I think along with the debasing stereotypes, the vilified content, it is overbearing on our youth.

That same group you say would "NEED" something from this current way?
There will be another group that sees how big a deal drugs are.. it breeds curiousity.

Gradual changes to the current, outdated system, will give us an idea if we are headed in the right direction.
But somethings gotta give. And it needs to start with some serious changes to our current, fixed attitude towards addiction.





Thank you. At least one person got the point I was trying to make.


I don't always have the best words and that's my fault so the message of my posts gets easily lost sometimes. I wasnt trying to normalize self destructive behaviors or trying to suggest somebody relapse. If you have relapsed it can be detrimental how you feel about your progress after. The shame from society can cause that one relpase to turn into a month long bender or even your death. So it's nice to remind yourself hey it's okay relapse happens and it's okay to start again and recognize we are human than to turn into dobby the house elf on yourself saying youre a pathetic worthless piece of shit and maybe they are all right? Maybe you cant do it. That kind of thinking needs to be stepped out of immediately during a relapse because if you are like me once i start to spiral i go from 0 to homeless real quick.


This post was simply to just remind addicts they are human too and to not be so hard on themselves. As an addict all I am is hard on myself and it usually is what causes me to relpase. It is nice to remind yourself sometimes you are doing better than you thought and to take it one day at a time.




Quote:

B Traven said:
Oh, yeah, and fuck Steve Jobs. I'm sure stealing other people's intellectual work and building a monopoly on the backs of underpaid Chinese workers (edit:Slaves) really takes it out of a guy, but hey, Kissinger and Stalin had busy work schedules, too.








Also I wasn't trying to glorify Steve Jobs and Einstein it was the opposite. I was trying to humanize them by saying even the people that are thought of as highly successful or great or even the minds that pushed us through to next Era of society were literal batshit addicts and not some gods. I literally can't think of one historical figure of any color that was not addicted to whatever it was they were doing (once again people only choose to think of drugs when this word pops up) whether that meant they had to be shady or whatever my point is that's addictive behaviors. I'm not saying to be like them at all or strive for that. Just saying addiction can be a super power if guided right. It doesn't have to be this super shameful thing that every addict needs to feel cursed with.

You could put that energy towards self care and spreading love for example.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


Edited by Powdered_Toastman (12/30/23 01:01 PM)


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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 5,589
Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 2
    #28603305 - 12/30/23 12:56 PM (29 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

B Traven said:
I tried to get through the wall of whatever the fuck all that was before commenting, but gave up. So I'm just gonna go ahead and comment anyway.

[snip]

(Not gonna lie, koraks, I'm a little disappointed to see all this shit you spewed. Might want to figure out why the fuck you felt the need.)





You'll have to 'get through the wall of whatever' to understand. Cherry-picking from an argumentation only contributes to the "absolute clusterfuck for trying to make generalizations." Taking in the full scope of my argumentation may lead you to the interesting insight that we agree on quite a few essential points.

One thing we may not agree on, and that's perfectly fine with me, is the fact that I deliberately chose a sharp and confrontational tone. Sometimes a good kick in the posterior is justified. The world isn't all roses and unicorns. And some lines of reasoning, or even the suggestion thereof, are plain delusional bullshit. The ignore function is available on this forum to those who'd rather not witness this being pointed out.





Stop giving yourself so much credit this is the internet. That was the least of what you did. In fact I would respect you if you could manage to kick me in the nads through the forums. I've already lived through a hell you probably never will. I rode freight trains around the country for almost 7 years living outside i was even an ironworker on a bridge in maine at one point and a sub contractor for my own seaweed boat raking 3-4 ton of seaweed a tide in the deep waters of the nova scotia and risked death daily and laughed in its face.

You dont want to know what it takes to offend me but it aint you koraks.

You seem to not listen to me either so why listen to you? You keep thinking I'm reacting a certain way based off of an image of addicts you've created for yourself.

My life goes on regardless of what you say on a forum board.



You really do crack me up :lol:


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


Edited by Powdered_Toastman (12/30/23 01:08 PM)


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 1
    #28603323 - 12/30/23 01:16 PM (29 days, 1 hour ago)

Okay mate, this is your drama. You own it, go have at it.

Hope you find your way in life. All the best.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Addiction [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 3
    #28603340 - 12/30/23 01:29 PM (29 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Schuman had to be institutionalized because he was insane.
Leonardo da Vinci cut off his own ear.
Really creative people have had demons in their lives. They are prone to addiction.
Your comment was unnecessarily mean.
People struggle with addiction. Isn’t as simple as get up and go to work. People can’t get paid unless they have an address in a lot of cases for one example.




van Gogh cut off his ear. He had much worse mental struggles than da Vinci.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: Addiction [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28603343 - 12/30/23 01:32 PM (29 days, 1 hour ago)

Thank you. I corrected the comment.


--------------------

Wanna Play? I offer free
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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Addiction [Re: koraks]
    #28603475 - 12/30/23 03:36 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

B Traven said:
I tried to get through the wall of whatever the fuck all that was before commenting, but gave up. So I'm just gonna go ahead and comment anyway.

[snip]

(Not gonna lie, koraks, I'm a little disappointed to see all this shit you spewed. Might want to figure out why the fuck you felt the need.)





You'll have to 'get through the wall of whatever' to understand. Cherry-picking from an argumentation only contributes to the "absolute clusterfuck for trying to make generalizations." Taking in the full scope of my argumentation may lead you to the interesting insight that we agree on quite a few essential points.

One thing we may not agree on, and that's perfectly fine with me, is the fact that I deliberately chose a sharp and confrontational tone. Sometimes a good kick in the posterior is justified. The world isn't all roses and unicorns. And some lines of reasoning, or even the suggestion thereof, are plain delusional bullshit. The ignore function is available on this forum to those who'd rather not witness this being pointed out.




I simply meant that I didn't wade through the entirety of your back-and-forth argument before offering my thoughts on the first round. Just imagine my post occurring earlier in the thread if need be. Most of my post had nothing to do with your or anyone else's comments, just my thoughts on the matter.

I know loads of people who drink too much, are addicted to alcohol/cocaine/opiates, etc. If I wanted to be confrontational and offer some tough love, there are many things I could say. Choosing weed and laziness as your starting point is still an odd choice. And to be clear, that's what my "cluster-fuck" comment was geared towards: examination of cannabis, one of the most complex and least physically addictive substances in wide use.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.


Edited by B Traven (12/30/23 03:39 PM)


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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Posts: 5,589
Re: Addiction [Re: B Traven] * 3
    #28603480 - 12/30/23 03:38 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago)

No one knows addicts better than people who haven't struggled with addiction it seems :shrug:


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 2
    #28603490 - 12/30/23 03:50 PM (28 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:


Also I wasn't trying to glorify Steve Jobs and Einstein it was the opposite. I was trying to humanize them by saying even the people that are thought of as highly successful or great or even the minds that pushed us through to next Era of society were literal batshit addicts and not some gods. I literally can't think of one historical figure of any color that was not addicted to whatever it was they were doing (once again people only choose to think of drugs when this word pops up) whether that meant they had to be shady or whatever my point is that's addictive behaviors. I'm not saying to be like them at all or strive for that. Just saying addiction can be a super power if guided right. It doesn't have to be this super shameful thing that every addict needs to feel cursed with.

You could put that energy towards self care and spreading love for example.





I figured as much, and I feel you. In addition to trying to say pretty much what you did here, I was addressing the false dichotomy between "people with a passion" who "do good in the world" and "addicts chasing a buzz." Also, I never turn down a chance to say "Fuck Steve Jobs" lol

Lots of people will say "Don't normalize and enable drug use" while simultaneously normalizing and enabling batshit crazy work-life balances and uncivil behavior.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.


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Offlinethirtygoats
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Re: Addiction [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 1
    #28603646 - 12/30/23 05:56 PM (28 days, 21 hours ago)

People who  are like that are the reason war exists. People who use drugs don't want to go to war. They want peace. One for all, not all for one. Drugs are a renewable resource, so technically dopamine is a renewable resource, and can't run out. The problem is when people neglect their health, and are not strong/healthy enough to deal with the negative effects, and do something insane.

The world leaders are all against drugs, yet they are all preparing for the next world war, because they are insane.


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: Addiction [Re: thirtygoats] * 2
    #28604459 - 12/31/23 10:36 AM (28 days, 4 hours ago)

the aztecs used psilocybin.  those guys were dicks.


Edited by BeefSupremeJr (12/31/23 10:37 AM)


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: Addiction [Re: BeefSupremeJr] * 2
    #28604463 - 12/31/23 10:40 AM (28 days, 4 hours ago)

ptm i hear what youre saying bud.  As someone whos struggled with drug addiction most of my life, I could argue that Im doing more than just chasing buzzes.  For sure, there are those, but a lot of what I have done with drugs was an earnest attempt to become better for my friends and family.  Id like to say that some of my efforts, at least, were not in vain.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Addiction [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28604465 - 12/31/23 10:43 AM (28 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
the aztecs used psilocybin.  those guys were dicks.




I wonder, though, how that came to pass. Something tells me they co-opted the psiloybe ceremonies from the Mazatepecs and other groups in what's now southern Mexico.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: Addiction [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #28604475 - 12/31/23 10:48 AM (28 days, 4 hours ago)

One can literally only wonder.  Ive also known plenty of dicks who co-opted my favorite sacraments, present day.
it happens. 

the nazis used amphetamines as part of their "blitzkreig" warfare program.  not that ive ever considered that a good drug, but andy warhol would have argued that.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Addiction [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #28604543 - 12/31/23 11:59 AM (28 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
One can literally only wonder.  Ive also known plenty of dicks who co-opted my favorite sacraments, present day.
it happens. 

the nazis used amphetamines as part of their "blitzkreig" warfare program.  not that ive ever considered that a good drug, but andy warhol would have argued that.




I tried to come up with a handy image for the people I've seen co-opt psilocybin and other substances, but failed. Though I'm still left thinking about whether the Aztecs had people we'd sort of recognize today in their midst. And whether there were any warriors who ingested psilocybin and had epiphanies and decided to drop out and run off into the Yucatan or something.

Yeah, not gonna lie, I LOVE amphetamines as a tool. I totally get why any military operation would employ them. They can help you accomplish and get through just about anything in the short-term. Though I'm lucky to have never had an issue with abusing them. And I have noticed that I'm not super stoked about what they do to my personality. But under the right circumstances, they've literally saved my life. And what's kind of crazy is that not very long ago, they were widely available and consumed in a matter-of-fact fashion, then the cycle of more potent versions and crackdowns began. But really, now, we've just replaced the reality of the 40's and 50's with prescriptions for Adderall.

But yeah, it's pretty nuts if you really get into what-all the Nazis were consuming. Their entire run could practically be seen as an extended meth binge. And might explain some of their psychology/behavior. But they were also heavy into narcotics, and concentration camp guards were given a raion of like 2 liters of vodka per day.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Addiction [Re: B Traven]
    #28604565 - 12/31/23 12:13 PM (28 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:Though I'm still left thinking about whether the Aztecs had people we'd sort of recognize today in their midst. And whether there were any warriors who ingested psilocybin and had epiphanies and decided to drop out and run off into the Yucatan or something.





I'm sure there are.  Like the Native Americans in the USA, there are probably pockets of Aztec people in Mexico and central America.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


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OfflineBlastThatBearOff
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Re: Addiction [Re: koraks]
    #28605527 - 01/01/24 08:35 AM (27 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
I was one of those people your fiance works with



I'm sorry to hear about your troubled past. It doesn't change anything about the fatal flaws in your reasoning.

This website is about harm reduction/prevention. Addiction is no joke, as you well know. It's also incomparable in a physical, psychological and social sense to dedication to a passion such as science, art etc.




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