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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: sudly]
    #28595973 - 12/24/23 01:53 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)



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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28596704 - 12/24/23 03:05 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Somtimes there is a false dichotomy (split into two)

sometimes there is a false monotony (one tone)


i think the phenomenon of bullying has more than one tone playing. It can be hard to pick them apart.

isecurity, low self esteem, lack of empathy, abuse and neglect, learned behavior, reinforcement conditioning, psychoopathy, seeing oneself as a victim.........

these are some of the tones that might play through bullies as they enact the bullying. Just to see these kind of streams within oneself is a pretty cool feat, to see them in another from an armchair is pretty hard to do


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596719 - 12/24/23 03:21 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

That's why the joke is you read Michel Foucault and then tell your therapist "I think we're done here..."
(psychoanalysis post Freud was botched, largely by his own daughter)

I think people enjoy being mean. For many reasons. Too numerous to count. Aggression is something that can be triggered by many things. I find it ugly, and it is something about myself that, when it happens, I really don't like. It doesn't feel good. But there can be a pleasure in being angry, and this pleasure itself is a substitute for other pleasures, or something that has become the main emotional outlet. I think sadness is directly related to anger. Happiness is not the opposite of sadness. No. Anger is, if one exists, the opposite of happiness, and anger and sadness are the front and back of the coin of this opposite. From sadness comes anger, from anger may come sadness.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596721 - 12/24/23 03:24 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Or perhaps laughter/joy is the opposite of sadness, and anger the opposite of happiness. That is more like it.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28596725 - 12/24/23 03:27 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

If a religious person thinks you're going to hell, and they tell you they want to 'save' you, but you don't want to convert or be 'saved', if the religious person persists, whatever their intention whether genuine or not, could that be considered a form of bullying?


--------------------
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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: sudly]
    #28596733 - 12/24/23 03:33 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

That person is mostly hallucinating as an automoton. That person cannot be said to have any real freedom willed. The only way to fix this is to have a person care that there is actually a way to determine reality in a way you can trust, without just merely believing someone. This is with logic and philosophy and mathematics. This is what you plant in people; what will grow into a natural adherence and faith in rationality instead of words of mysticism.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: sudly] * 2
    #28596747 - 12/24/23 03:53 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If a religious person thinks you're going to hell, and they tell you they want to 'save' you, but you don't want to convert or be 'saved', if the religious person persists, whatever their intention whether genuine or not, could that be considered a form of bullying?




I think a good POV is that if the religious person persists their intention wasn't genuine to begin with.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Rahz]
    #28596754 - 12/24/23 03:56 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Exactly.
The priest versus the saint argument that I was making earlier.
It’s one thing to be genuinely a good person. And reach out to somebody because you’re trying to help. Versus trying to terrorize somebody into believing what you do.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28596758 - 12/24/23 03:59 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Exactly.
The priest versus the saint argument that I was making earlier.
It’s one thing to be genuinely a good person. And reach out to somebody because you’re trying to help. Versus trying to terrorize somebody into believing what you do.





parents do this with children

like children are natuarlly scared of cars

I think if i genuinely believed someone might be tortured in eternity, and I could save them from that just be convincing them to believe in jesus, I would do anything to convince them.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596760 - 12/24/23 04:00 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

You should be able to present that to them. That should still be their choice though.
IMO


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28596800 - 12/24/23 04:44 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

what is known as Narcissism often comes out as bullying too.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28596804 - 12/24/23 04:47 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
You should be able to present that to them. That should still be their choice though.
IMO





If someone is ignorant, they don't have the ability to choose. Like with children


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596825 - 12/24/23 05:09 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

This is how i see it

sadness <--> anger <--  (-)  :  (+)  --> happiness <--> joy/laughter

The : is the direction of our mood (our neurochemistry) when confronted with something (by confronted I mean something appearing which we react to that we have not ourselves created)

The positive is what we integrate easily and adds 'stimulation,' for lack of better words

The negative is what is not integrated easily or not at all, precludes stimulation and or perturbs because it is not 'accepted,' for lack of better words.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596826 - 12/24/23 05:09 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

believing in something is never a choice.
(not that anything is)
people should not be made to believe things, is probably what GC is talking about, and I agree with that (truly a form of bullying).
but honestly we do not choose to believe things.

We pick up the practice from others around us, and then become confirmed, barmitzva'd, re baptized, and publicly endorsed as believers in traditional ceremonies even if we are not actually in synch with all that stuff.

and the things that some people actually come to believe are really astonishing: crazy conspiracies, and some really obtuse political concepts. I cannot imagine people choosing to be so stupid.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596835 - 12/24/23 05:17 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I think lastly the opposite of loving and appreciating people is wanting to use/harm them.

loving <--> appreciating : using <--> harming

When the pleasure that would come from/with others is found in using them and harming them... this is called Sadism. I think Sadism is a natural part of the monkey dna in us of primate, primal rage of dominance. Sadism is a narcissistic formation and it is the result of a lack of love and acceptance, true in the society and environment in which a person is born, which we created as a reaction formation, a defense mechanism, exactly how Freud demonstrates in a Darwinian way about the unconscious.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28596840 - 12/24/23 05:25 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I am a bit concerned about the knocking over of a pile of blocks - a kind of bull-ish play behavior.
should I be concerned when a 3 year old loves knocking things over, especially if asked not to do that.


--------------------
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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28596845 - 12/24/23 05:30 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I see anger as its own thing, joy as its own thing, pleasure as its own thing, sadness as its own thing, and there are subdivisions within.

Anger tends to have layers for me. So like say someone stole something I value. I might feel angry. If i look at the anger and soften, i find within it there is sadness, and when i allow myself to feel the sadness, grieving happens. Through this acceptance is found and life moves on. I am very familiar with that pattern as in most of my life I would suppress the anger, and the whole complex would get burried. Durring meditation these complexes naturaly emerge, so it sort of became one of the routine things.

also can be other things under the anger like shame (and under the shame me be sadness and greif at the loss of face or social standing or how i imagine someone thinks about me)

anger can be aroused preemptively at imagined threats. politicians manipulate people with this.

I distinguish between pleausure and joy although they can mix. joy has a quality of love in it, its shared, even if that sense of sharing is with a flower. I delight in the flower, rather than using it to get a sensation. I delight in children without wanting anything from them. There is some freedom with joy, its not possesive. pleasure tends to be possesive.


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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Freedom]
    #28596857 - 12/24/23 05:40 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)


I find what you said intriguing.

It made me think, what is the state of mind in conversation? Is that itself a sensation? Or reading... There may be many feelings. How does one's psychological relation to other people impact their ability for actually having a conversation, and having the feeling(s) of the exchange of thoughts? It requires sharing ideas, and this is why I think conversation and communication is fundamentally associated inside us with what 'love' and 'happiness' means. I don't think it is its own thing apart from having as you say delight and joy with/from other people. It isn't about deriving joy or pleasure but with it simultaneously with the experience. I think anger and sadness is fundamentally opposed to communication, which is something that actually holds the species together.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm
𝔦𝔫 𝔫𝔬𝔪𝔦𝔫𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔫𝔦 𝔭𝔢𝔰𝔰𝔦𝔪𝔦 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔣𝔦𝔲𝔫𝔱
May I ask what your bud type is?
  LXIVAMOR 
Profundæ lātissimæque vēritātēs amandæ sunt, sīc ideo necesse est: rēs maxima amanda est; pōtus sit is bene scīmus cum nōs id adeō explet, cum altō hīc movet īmus: rēs maxima omnis amor.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28596860 - 12/24/23 05:43 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
believing in something is never a choice.
(not that anything is)
people should not be made to believe things, is probably what GC is talking about, and I agree with that (truly a form of bullying).
but honestly we do not choose to believe things.

We pick up the practice from others around us, and then become confirmed, barmitzva'd, re baptized, and publicly endorsed as believers in traditional ceremonies even if we are not actually in synch with all that stuff.

and the things that some people actually come to believe are really astonishing: crazy conspiracies, and some really obtuse political concepts. I cannot imagine people choosing to be so stupid.




I don't personally desire to convince people as I feel pretty confident that I am not the worlds leading expert on everything lol. (this is a real lol it cracks me up) :smile:

However I did work in nursing homes, and I would pressure people to do things that I thought would be good for them. That encouragement was a really tricky thing for me. Its common in nursing homes to do that. At first it felt so wrong, because I have a strong value for personal choice (even thought I see choice as an illusion).

After observing things for a while, it looked like this encouragement was really helping people. For example there was a woman with dementia who was paranoid. She thought people came into her room at night, she saw bugs crawling around everywhere, and she was scared to go out of her room. Because her memory was impaired, she couldn't remember me. I got to come to her everyday and try things iteratively like groundhogs day. Eventually i learned how to encourage her out of her room. When she got out, there was a guy she naturally got along with. The enjoyed each other very much and would go on adventures together. (he also had dementia and it was really good for him too).

I had to be careful and I looked at how I spoke and what i said very carefully.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The psychology of the bully [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28596876 - 12/24/23 05:55 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Blue_Lux said:

I find what you said intriguing.

It made me think, what is the state of mind in conversation? Is that itself a sensation? Or reading... There may be many feelings. How does one's psychological relation to other people impact their ability for actually having a conversation, and having the feeling(s) of the exchange of thoughts? It requires sharing ideas, and this is why I think conversation and communication is fundamentally associated inside us with what 'love' and 'happiness' means. I don't think it is its own thing apart from having as you say delight and joy with/from other people. It isn't about deriving joy or pleasure but with it simultaneously with the experience. I think anger and sadness is fundamentally opposed to communication, which is something that actually holds the species together.





I find lots of levels and varieties of communication. like at the grocery store there is subtle communication barely acknowledging others just enough not to bump carts, or to let some go in line (or try to get first in line). then with the person at the check out counter, it might just be very matter of fact, or there could be a brief moment of connection.

that transition from matter of fact conversation to conection is a state change for me. That's where atunement starts. On the other end of the spectrum, I have a friend who when we visit we sit in silence most of the time, feeling that sense of connection. The silence gives space and time for giving attention both to the other and to oneself. When we speak from this state, we seem to be able to deeply understand each other.

Merry ChristmaHanaKwanzaKrumpaDiwaliHogmany!

these conversations have been very enriching I'm probably going to disapear for a few days


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