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OfflineKickleM
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Reality threshold * 1
    #28590304 - 12/19/23 06:47 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28590316 - 12/19/23 06:54 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

For the lucid dreamers out there, a way to test whether you are in physical reality or a dream is to: look at a clock. If the time fluctuates, wobbles, is unsteady then that is a sure sign you are in a dream.

To generalize, one could say that physical reality is more stable than other planes of reality. A physical banana will hang around longer than an imagined one. However, even the physical banana WILL eventually degenerate/transform.


--------------------
"Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." :aliendance:
A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing
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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #28590334 - 12/19/23 07:11 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Ok, temporal stability...

Does this mean one should question whether quick glances capture anything real?

As a test I quickly glanced into the kitchen where I remember a bunch of bananas. I saw them and quickly looked away. Did I see real bananas or is it possible I only imagined seeing them but do not second guess it because of memory?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590361 - 12/19/23 07:24 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

there are no real bananas in the apartment.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28590372 - 12/19/23 07:29 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

The Dalai Lama was quite fascinated by projectors as a youngster


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590382 - 12/19/23 07:37 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I got a magnajector when I was 12
golden book encyclopedia on the walls every nite.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28590421 - 12/19/23 07:54 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I'm curious if anyone else has any insights for how to distinguish. I thought temporal stability was a good one :thumbup:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590704 - 12/20/23 12:15 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Awesome question.

I feel like there are two distinct types of ā€œrealā€ in my mind.

There’s the scientific type of real that can only be backed up by one or more observations from other people. Like if I see a tree in the distance and I ask you if what I’m seeing is actually a tree, then we ask a couple more people to make sure we’re not ascribing the word ā€œtreeā€ to a large animal standing still or something.

Then there’s the sense in which all of experience is real. Even if we disagree about something subjective. That subjective experience, although it differs between us, is still real for both of us.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590723 - 12/20/23 01:07 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Dream actualization
The suggestion about the clock is one of the best ones. We don’t always have access to o’clock in our dreams though.
Try to open a book. All of them will be blank.
Try to count the fingers on your hand. That is impossible to do in a dream.
Those are two of my favorites.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 01:20 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590728 - 12/20/23 01:15 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?




Unless you're experiencing serotonin syndrome and going through hyperactive mental delirium, the distinction between stereognosis and vision is clear. If you can't distinguish between the two, you may be having a serious medical episode.

Even when tripping on shrooms, how could you not know the difference between the visuals and reality? With acid, surfaces may move, or the sky could look like a koleidiscope, but why would you think that's now the reality of the brick wall, or the reality of the sky for all?

It just seems irresponsibility, or the perception of a seperated entity experiencing what you are that could lead to such irrational conclusions.


--------------------
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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590736 - 12/20/23 01:20 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I err on the side of assuming everything is imagined until proven true. The brain is ridiculously biased, it hallucinates, it misses stuff. I assume it's all in my head until proven otherwise. When in doubt I assume my perception is wrong. I keep an open mind specifically when it comes to doubting my own perceptions. I'm persuaded by serious sciencey stuff.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: nooneman]
    #28590743 - 12/20/23 01:47 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

what a terrifying place to live imo. Our recollection of things can be pretty spacey, but if someone don't know what's real and what's not in the moment, they need to be wearing grippy socks.

I can doubt my recollection of events, but not whether something is real or imagined when it's in the moment. Maybe you could misinterpret a deer for a bear in the distance, but that's when we don't have enough visual information to make the connection, that or enough experience to quickly identify species.

One could argue we experience a kind of controlled hallucination in a sense, but that's not to say we're having any kind of colloquial hallucination.

If you're looking at a distant object and you don't know whether it's a bird or a balloon, you aren't imagining the distant object, you're only unsure of what form it comes in.

There's a clear distinction between imagining something that isn't there and mislabelling something that is.


--------------------
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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590753 - 12/20/23 02:00 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?



Its all about texture..

How something looks usually gives away its touch sense data..

The brain body machine is always measuring things using cues that have already been established.

Plus there is the sense of the current sense data in the moment.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: nooneman]
    #28590811 - 12/20/23 04:48 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...

If you're looking at a distant object and you don't know whether it's a bird or a balloon, you aren't imagining the distant object, you're only unsure of what form it comes in.

There's a clear distinction between imagining something that isn't there and mislabelling something that is.



Quote:

nooneman said:
I err on the side of assuming everything is imagined until proven true. The brain is ridiculously biased, it hallucinates, it misses stuff. I assume it's all in my head until proven otherwise. When in doubt I assume my perception is wrong. I keep an open mind specifically when it comes to doubting my own perceptions...




these are close to what I normally take to be real except I also spend a lot of time exploring my high speed change awareness by slowing down and immersing in sensory/mental flux which could not be labeled in the timeframe. Unfamiliar junk & chaotic forms which are real experience, but not meaningfully real or necessarily significant appears  and disappears in this range. It's a bit like what an octopus might feel like.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmVxJk6Hz9K/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeZjnQLhMAK/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl4aMZ-HQHZ/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4xgGahlJ75/


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590875 - 12/20/23 06:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I've never experienced not knowing if something is real
Intrigued with this thread


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: loladoreen] * 1
    #28590897 - 12/20/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

INB4 Kickle is straight up using our posts to train an AI with plans toward making the threshold between reality and unreality indescernable, but I suppose it's fine or whatever.
I guess no one watched "Beyond the Aquila rift."
:shrug:


"Geographical and temporal perimeters: Functional parameters vary from manifestation to manifestation."

First off,
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Dream actualization
The suggestion about the clock is one of the best ones. We don’t always have  access to o’clock in our dreams though.



:lol: that cracked me up bro.
But...
Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
If the time fluctuates, wobbles, is unsteady then that is a sure sign you are in a dream.



and
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Try to open a book. All of them will be blank.
Try to count the fingers on your hand. That is impossible to do in a dream.
Those are two of my favorites.




I'm not trying to nitpick or play contrarian, but this type of information around ironclad rules of lucid dreaming always make me roll my eyes a bit.
:rolleyes:
The idea of a test that will let you discern between waking and dreaming is helpful (and something you develop a feel for from plenty lucid dream/ hyponogogic experiences), but just like our interpretations on the effects from tripping I think there are very few hard & fast rules about the resulting phenomenon like 'clocks are always unstable''not being able to read text' or 'having too many fingers' stuff like that.
:twocents:
Although I distinctly remember one lucid dream, where while filling a Vespa with fuel, the display on the pump was displaying stuff like the weight of the scooter, its dimensions, colour, pictures of it from various angles. I don't recall the font being in English, in fact at a push I'd say it was in symbols, but I was quite able to read and make sense of the texts context in the dreamspace.
Sadly, the fact the fuel volume was the only metric not tracked caused the scooter to swell up like a balloon though and I had to seek help from the attendant. :facepalm:


Back on track...
So we got:
Temporal stabilityāœ”
Confirmation from multiple sourcesāœ”
as tools toward finding the threshold.
Brendans comment on texture made me think too.
We can maybe use texture defined as "the feel, appearance, or consistency of a surface or substance." to give further clues that could be useful to test for somethings reality/ dimensional stickiness, the idea of consistency being one (consistency referring both to touch data and a consistent way of being that conforms to certain peramaters)

I leave my banana on the desk while I go to get a plate, knife and fork for it. When back, the banana is on the chair.
Hmm.
Not very consistent, in a locational/spacial sense.
But maybe it fell, or my memory putting it on the desk is mistaken- I definitely PUT IT but maybe the details got lost and I actually put it on the chair.
Probably best, before considering the cause of movement, to define the object, because MY object, the banana, hasn't shown me a tendency toward locomotion in the past.
So I touch the peel- and since my 'brain body machine' has been running the background metrics for me ever since the idea of banana- I have a reasonable expectation of touch data that the banana should conform to (based on its condition in relation to the other bananas of my life.)
A bit waxy, mostly firm but yielding, smooth with the odd pitt perhaps, rougher and woody on the end.
But wait, this banana is a pale blue, feels like velvet and is at least 8c° less than room temp!
Plus it's not even on the chair now, it's just rotating slowly in open space...
Sighing wearily, I go wash my hands in case it's them that is the cause of anomalous match up between expectations and perception, but alas the results are the same after my scrub.
Let's get to the bottom of it, cautiously leaning my face in toward the whirling artifact, I take a big nose toke of the surrounding air.
The expectation is a sweet, 'greenness' of the peel, maybe a chemical sort of booziness to it, but no, the artifact emits a scent of burnt garlic and shoe polish.
Furthermore, the 'banana' is also making a sound that's a sort of blend of between an amateur-made dubstep bass, CAT scan machine and a numbers radio station.
So far so bad, I begin to consider this is no banana at all and lose my appetite.
I put my plate, knife and fork in the bin and would you believe that when I return, there on my desk in all of its yellow resplendence is my object. The banana!
It's roughly 5.4" from end to end and its slightly obtuse curved form is entirely stationary in relation to my placing of it. It smells how I expect, its feel corresponds to my database and it makes barely any discernable sound whatsoever.
This information puts me at ease and I perform the final test of the items reality. Bearing in mind I've disposed of my crockery so I peel the artifact like an absolute simian and bite into the fruit.

Gross, it's banana.


TLDR: to define something as real, a (hopefully as balanced as possible) toolkit of sensory input, measured experienceal expectation (giving a model of temporal and spacial consistency), probability, problem solving and context all serve as useful barometers to gauge our reality threshold with.
However, and some may argue equally or more powerful in this field, are our mental contents, world view, upbringing etc etc etc which in reaction could (and DO) all contribute to a MISINTERPRETATION or distortion of reality - ala Sudlys comment on misidentifying animals, for example, as opposed to outright imagining- the idea being that rather than built to convey TRUTH about our surroundings, out sensory experience is available to present a version of reality that promotes our survival over that of objective realness.

Personally, I seem to use the above mentioned 'toolkit' combined with following my intuition. I get stuff wrong a lot but I feel like its an honest & reliable way to put me in the centre of my own learning experience as to what is or is not "real".
Saying that, I tend to consider how useful in my day to day, how harmful to myself or others and any number of factors that seem more important to me than somethings irrefutable realness. Detrimental? Probably. Useable? Absolutely.
:deepman:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: loladoreen]
    #28590909 - 12/20/23 06:56 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

So to summarize new entries:

Consensus
Details that match prior experience (object consistency?)
Science (controlled replicability)
Spacial consistency
Consistency acrosses additional sensory modalities

It seems consistency is important for determining realness?

I personally think intensity or vividness is important. An imagined image tends to be less vibrant and less visually strong. I also think when someone says of a dream "it felt more real than real' it is a reference to intensity or vividness.

But generally speaking we don't mistake one for the other due to distinct differences in vividness.

I've given some thought to sudly's posts and might summarize the view as judgement. We make judgement calls on things and trust our judgement. Judgement being perhaps a combination of many of the elements described thus far.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28590919 - 12/20/23 07:02 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Sadly, the fact the fuel volume was the only metric not tracked caused the scooter to swell up like a balloon though and I had to seek help from the attendant. :facepalm: 

:lmao:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590935 - 12/20/23 07:19 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28590942 - 12/20/23 07:22 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Lithop said:
INB4 Kickle is straight up using our posts to train an AI with plans toward making the threshold between reality and unreality indescernable, but I suppose it's fine or whatever.




:shocked2:  I thought Kickle was training us!?


--------------------
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A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing
(With all the accoutrements.)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591002 - 12/20/23 08:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?



if imagination is perception, yes.
perception is often in error, as it uses incomplete matching to resolve from experiences in memory.
It can be no other way in our biology.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #28591014 - 12/20/23 08:37 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

This is actually the result of finding out about a really old (1910) psychological study.

The researcher put a projector screen up and asked participants to stare at the blank screen. Then while staring, to imagine a fruit, book, or tree on the blank screen. After a while, she would project an actual image of a fruit, book, or tree onto the screen itself.

Participants had a tough time recognizing any transition. Sometimes they would wonder why their imagined fruit was in a new orientation, but still think it was just their imagination. Or sometimes they would recognize that there was now something on the screen, but claim that some aspect of their imagination was really there too, such as a title for a book even though the actual image projected had no title at all.

In total people had a very difficult time knowing what was real vs. imagined in the experiment. And so it became known as The Perky Effect. Neurologically speaking in more modern times we understand that many of the same visual cortex neurons are firing when you imagine seeing something as when you actually see something. So from the brains standpoint, it can be quite difficult to differentiate.

But obviously we don't always become confused. So there is probably something contextually unique about the original Perky study. I maintain that vibrancy plays a role here. How bright or clear was a 1910's projector? :lol: I also think that having a trusted authority who says the screen is blank is sort of priming expectation, which also has an effect on perception. And many other factors of course. While the study is interesting in it's own right, it was early and many cognitive and psychological concepts we understand today as influencing outcome were not taken into account. But it planted a seed of curiosity as to how we do manage to distinguish relatively easily the difference between imagination and reality in day-to-day life.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28591153 - 12/20/23 10:30 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

loladoreen said:
I've never experienced not knowing if something is real



Bold claim!

Quote:

Kickle said:
It seems consistency is important for determining realness?




Could be helpful to track but it has to be a certain type of consistancy... Phobias or intrusive thoughts could be seen as the entire flipside of that coin of consistancy in relation to realness.
Quote:

Kickle said:
I personally think intensity or vividness is important. An imagined image tends to be less vibrant and less visually strong. I also think when someone says of a dream "it felt more real than real' it is a reference to intensity or vividness.




Tough, the first part on the importance of vividness seems to clash with the second of those feeling a dream to be realer than real.
Example: if I'm going through a depressive spell things may get really dulled/ washed out which lends the 'real' life a sense of 'unreality' but when dreaming, that place or experience feels more vivid, lending the 'unreal' a bigger sense of being 'real' than what we could all class as the actual real.
Probably could be additionally helpful but I don't think intensity or vividness should be included as factors to consider when looking for the reality threshhold. Tripping also tells that when mingling with & THROUGH the reality threshold, things can be REAL intense and vivid!
:lol:
:trippinbawelz:

Quote:

Kickle said:
I've given some thought to sudly's posts and might summarize the view as judgement. We make judgement calls on things and trust our judgement. Judgement being perhaps a combination of many of the elements described thus far.



Quote:

Details that match prior experience (object consistency?)
Science (controlled replicability)
Spacial consistency
Consistency acrosses additional sensory modalities



PLUS
Holds up to/compatible with (measured) judgment.
:takingnotes:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?



Yeah they can IMO.

Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
:shocked2:  I thought Kickle was training us!?



He may well be...
*adds Blue Cthulu to list of suspected bots*
:sherlock:
Tell me, if you don't mind, which looks more appealing;
Option A

or

Option B

Don't worry, there's no right or wrong answer!
Quote:

Kickle said:
...Perky Effect...



That was interesting!
Maybe vibrancy/intensity does play a part in how much attention/where we place our stakes these situations, as you said. Should ask RGV RE: strength of projectors- his one from 12 yrs old seems to date it to around 1910 by my maths, coinciding nicely w/ the study.
But I definitely fall foul of somethin akin to this effect quite often when high where I'll see- text for example- as a different word, often a word related to my train of thought then I double take and see the actual word/object/ whatever. It's all extremely brief and seems to speak to some idea of projecting (the projection going out mixing with the stimuli coming in or something...)
:vaped:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28591271 - 12/20/23 11:54 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

vibrance, or persistence, aka frame-stacking from emotional or psychedelic, adds to the quality and quantity/duration of the content, and thereby increases the access to the memory via more potential contextual perceptions.

access is what makes memory seem more significant.
when we cannot access a memory we may say we forgot, but it may simply be inaccessible in the current context.

everything we think of is real, but not always outside of our thoughts.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28591318 - 12/20/23 12:22 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

In the below, imagery is defined as imagined [visual imagery] and perception is defined as externally existing [imagery].

Quote:

Taken together, our results reveal a subjective intermixing of imagery and perception, leading to widespread perceptual reality monitoring failure in large general population samples. The success of a signal detection model in capturing these data patterns indicates that reality monitoring may be implemented simply by comparing sensory signals against a reality threshold. Such a model is parsimonious and powerful, but also has profound implications. In particular, a consequence of this account is that it predicts when virtual or imagined sensory signals are strong or detailed enough, they become indistinguishable from reality. 




https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-37322-1


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591383 - 12/20/23 01:02 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

For nuance.

Quote:

However, visual imagery is often also triggered automatically, outside of voluntary control and, despite the absence of a clear intention in these instances, such involuntary imagery is generally still not mistaken for reality. This is because under this model imagery and perception are always distinguishable, even if they overlap in content (the congruent condition).

When deciding whether an experience reflects external reality or internal imagination, our model compares the strength of this experience to a reality threshold. But if reality and imagination are subjectively intermixed by default, why do we not confuse them more often in daily life? We suggest that such confusions are rare simply because imagery is typically less vivid than veridical perception, rarely crossing the reality threshold. However, these results also suggest that if imagery does become vivid or strong enough, it will be indistinguishable from perception.

This hypothesis is in line with our findings that people who reported higher imagery vividness in general (on the trials preceding the critical trial) were more likely to exhibit failures of perceptual reality monitoring. Furthermore, more vivid imagery has been associated with an increased probability of experiencing hallucinations in both clinical60,61Ā as well as non-clinical populations





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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28591385 - 12/20/23 01:04 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
access is what makes memory seem more significant.
when we cannot access a memory we may say we forgot, but it may simply be inaccessible in the current context.

everything we think of is real, but not always outside of our thoughts.



But does this mean the more often/ readily accessed memory is real or just that we consider it to be?
Quote:

Kickle said:
In the below, imagery is defined as imagined [visual imagery] and perception is defined as externally existing [imagery].



Quote:

Kickle said:
"In particular, a consequence of this account is that it predicts when virtual or imagined sensory signals are strong or detailed enough, they become indistinguishable from reality."




'Central sensitisation' can happen with some chronic medical conditions, as consequence the perception of pain becomes warped, causing the incorrect ID of non painful stimuli as painful. The senses are tricked once again, similar to the visual mis ID.
There may, then be the equivilent misperception for each of the senses. With those so succeptable and as suggested with RGV above: the fact even our memory is subject to bias and jank of some sort in what it offers up to us...
Not easy to define a threshold of 'reality' when all that shit is in play.
:psychsplit:

:edit:
Quote:

sudly said:
"But if reality and imagination are subjectively intermixed by default, why do we not confuse them more often in daily life? We suggest that such confusions are rare simply because imagery is typically less vivid than veridical perception, rarely crossing the reality threshold. However, these results also suggest that if imagery does become vivid or strong enough, it will be indistinguishable from perception."




So it becomes "indistinguishable" from the persons perception yet they don't confuse it with their reality?
Where is the discernable threshold in that?
:confused2:


Edited by Lithop (12/20/23 01:10 PM)


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591407 - 12/20/23 01:22 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
In the below, imagery is defined as imagined [visual imagery] and perception is defined as externally existing [imagery].

Quote:

Taken together, our results reveal a subjective intermixing of imagery and perception, leading to widespread perceptual reality monitoring failure in large general population samples. The success of a signal detection model in capturing these data patterns indicates that reality monitoring may be implemented simply by comparing sensory signals against a reality threshold. Such a model is parsimonious and powerful, but also has profound implications. In particular, a consequence of this account is that it predicts when virtual or imagined sensory signals are strong or detailed enough, they become indistinguishable from reality. 




https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-37322-1



I realize that perception is commonly conflated with sensation, however, we can sense something and not perceive what it is.
in that case the memory has not chimed in with any perceptive reflexes.
in the text you have imagination and you do not have memory.
from my point of view, memory is the substrate, and we are always making new memory at ~10 engrams per second more or less, what comes out of memory is the perceptive reflex which could be called imagination or speech or movement or thought.

as for what is real or more real than anything else, well, we do expect perceptive glitching, and so we recheck and recheck, normally.
in fact all of our movements and social discourse is managed by rechecking even as we speak and move because the expectation is that other things and people can be moving and reacting to our presence and expressions.

if we do not recheck while moving or interacting, we will stumble or seem out of touch.

In OCD people overdo the rechecking - they call it the doubting disease, and essentially this question about what is really real pertains very much to OCD.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28591427 - 12/20/23 01:43 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
as for what is real or more real than anything else, well, we do expect perceptive glitching, and so we recheck and recheck, normally.
in fact all of our movements and social discourse is managed by rechecking even as we speak and move because the expectation is that other things and people can be moving and reacting to our presence and expressions.

if we do not recheck while moving or interacting, we will stumble or seem out of touch.

In OCD people overdo the rechecking - they call it the doubting disease, and essentially this question about what is really real pertains very much to OCD.



So much of human behaviour.
The above reminded me of, on Rigpa in Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoches commentary of Bardo Thodol:
"If understanding something founded on the logic of a critical attitude, then your wisdom is based on extremely solid and definite ground; it is unshakable.
But the other aspect of it is the realm of hell, when the critical attitude does not relate to solidity or base sanity of any kind, but sets off a chain reaction, an alarm bell so to speak, of paranoia."

Paranoia needs a perception of 'reality' to function so how do you think we can hone in on point where considering a potential problem becomes paranoia, 'the threshold'?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28591444 - 12/20/23 02:00 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

The Bardo Thodol is an ancient text, and I do not agree with the model it presents of mind and wisdom and paranoia.

Too much of that document has circular definitions. I would say that to the face of the Dalai Lama or any Rinpoche.

however
"critical attitude" can be interpreted as awareness with rechecking, and in that case I agree with the basic sanity of it, it is not however other than a natural way of being, so I would not consider it especially part of a practice, even a spider will do this.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1CxutqLxLg/


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28591466 - 12/20/23 02:16 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
The Bardo Thodol is an ancient text, and I do not agree with the model it presents of mind and wisdom and paranoia.

Too much of that document has circular definitions.



I enjoy the document and have gotten a lot of food for thought from it.
So how would you personally define paranoia, in the context of it as a metric which we can use in seeking the threshold between the real and unreal? Or is it even applicable?
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I would say that to the face of the Dalai Lama or any Rinpoche.



:lmafo:
:hulk2:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
however
"critical attitude" can be interpreted as awareness with rechecking, and in that case I agree with the basic sanity of it, it is not however other than a natural way of being, so I would not consider it especially part of a practice, even a spider will do this.



I agree on the critical attitude point.
In context what is the base if not a part of practise? I see it as the ground/bottom layer/pre requisite from which we approach our practise. Sure it (a basic, undistorted awareness or attitude) exists in other contexts but I disagree with saying 'natural way of being' isn't a part of practise. You could say the natural way of being "no thought of what is called 'just as it is' " is as real as it gets.
But it still leaves the OP question open.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28591485 - 12/20/23 02:32 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

you do not have to practice being natural, but you might have to practice calming down and keeping out of the way of being natural,
i.e. practice not adding so much imagination (perceptive reflex) that it is impossible to get a clean shot of what is happening - this is the crux of the reality threshold issue.

I had tons of good insight from Bardo Thodol too, but same with tarot cards bible etc. these are valid efforts to model life in different ways using archaic terms, but they are not accurate representations even in archaic terms, so if you do meet the Buddha in the middle of the road who you gonna call?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28591488 - 12/20/23 02:34 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Lithop said:
Quote:

sudly said:
"But if reality and imagination are subjectively intermixed by default, why do we not confuse them more often in daily life? We suggest that such confusions are rare simply because imagery is typically less vivid than veridical perception, rarely crossing the reality threshold. However, these results also suggest that if imagery does become vivid or strong enough, it will be indistinguishable from perception."




So it becomes "indistinguishable" from the persons perception yet they don't confuse it with their reality?
Where is the discernable threshold in that?
:confused2:




Quote:

if imagery does become vivid or strong enough,Ā 




Quote:

Delirium occurs when signals in the brain aren't sent and received properly.





The threshold is probably when the peo0le around you don't see what you claim to be seeing.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591501 - 12/20/23 02:46 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
This is actually the result of finding out about a really old (1910) psychological study.

The researcher put a projector screen up and asked participants to stare at the blank screen. Then while staring, to imagine a fruit, book, or tree on the blank screen. After a while, she would project an actual image of a fruit, book, or tree onto the screen itself.

Participants had a tough time recognizing any transition.




Quote:

how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?




A projection or an image is not a real object.

An image is a representation, not the actual object, the imagined object is the same, a representation.

A life-like image of a banana can be made that can look like a real banana, but is not. Even when the depiction is of a genuine object, the image is not the object and thus the object is not real. It makes sense that this experiment would work out this way. I doubt that any such thing can be done with a real banana on a table before someone.

This topic reminds me of remote viewing.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Nillion] * 1
    #28591513 - 12/20/23 02:55 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

it's more than remote viewing.
an image in your mind can come from your eyes
or from your memory (imagination)
in both cases the same brain cells (not all of them but many) become active and represent the visual mental content being considered.

this means that fundamentally there is no difference between what can be visually perceived due to retinal stimulation or memory stimulation.

We do run into the problem when first engaging with psychedelics, while more "seasoned" psychonauts seem to know when to question the origins.
sometimes it is difficult, or not worth the effort.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28591520 - 12/20/23 02:59 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you do not have to practice being natural, but you might have to practice calming down and keeping out of the way of being natural,
i.e. practice not adding so much imagination (perceptive reflex) that it is impossible to get a clean shot of what is happening - this is the crux of the reality threshold issue.



Haha, I know- and so much of my 'practise' is of course the latter of what you said RE keeping out the way but I was more getting at the fact I see "clear awareness" as being natural in addition to that natural awareness being a component (base) of practise as well as something to work toward being able to access at will. Making it, IMO a part of practise.
I appreciate what you said about perceptive reflex, it's a good term.
I think that really is what is meant by "no thought of what is called 'just as it is'" it's preconceptual (?) like if you're there to notice it, you're not really there...

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I had tons of good insight from Bardo Thodol too, but same with tarot cards bible etc. these are valid efforts to model life in different ways using archaic terms, but they are not accurate representations even in archaic terms



Horses for courses, of course there's so much more VALUE to consuming information than where it ends up taking you!
As I suggested earlier- accuracy (in this case accuracy to a representative model of life') isn't always the thing I find most important to measure.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so if you do meet the Buddha in the middle of the road who you gonna call?



:lol:?

Quote:

sudly said:
"if imagery does become vivid or strong enough,Ā 

Delirium occurs when signals in the brain aren't sent and received properly.


The threshold is probably when the peo0le around you don't see what you claim to be seeing."



When Kickle derived
Quote:

Judgement being perhaps a combination of many of the elements described thus far.


from your previous post, I agreed that it's a potential factor.
:thumbup:


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28591527 - 12/20/23 03:06 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Sorry, I should have elaborated.

It reminded me of remote viewing because the subject in those cases has no concept of what they are looking for, only where and or when they are looking. Some individuals have demonstrated a remarkable ability in this to perceive aspects of reality.

I think you have great points here RGV.


Edited by Nillion (12/20/23 03:07 PM)


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28591547 - 12/20/23 03:30 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Lithop said:..."no thought of what is called 'just as it is'" it's preconceptual (?) like if you're there to notice it, you're not really there....




yes, although, I must confess, I notice a lot of unfamiliar - unnameable, and though I am barely aware (the goal?),  have to say at least some perceptive reflex is happening, but when I am doing really well at bare awareness, the perceptive reflex is not cascading and compounding (ramifying in all directions) - it is quickly subsumed by the next moment's breath movements. Then there is the whole change detection behavior of the brain tissue, and it is always just a little bit surprising, that no matter how well concentrated I seem to be, something comes up, and the unchanging center of attention seems to have disappeared behind this cloud. This puts a bit of a dance into the stillness.

I would not say I am not really there, but I am not other than the whole process, and that process would be happening in practice or not.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591632 - 12/20/23 04:46 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?




I do.

The line between imagination and reality is a lot more blurred than some people like to point out in my opinion.

First what do we call imagination?

Do we only call things that are conjured up voluntarily imagination? Or do we also call involuntary hallucinations imagination? How do we separate these two things?
- if I close my eyes and imagine a banana, how long until that banana starts to change form a little bit in my imagination based on an involuntary thought that pops into my head? The banana now has a creepy smile for a moment; I didn’t originally intend for this imagined banana to have a creepy smile, but it just seemed to pop into existence.
Does the creepy smile fall into the category of voluntary imagination because it appeared on my voluntarily imagined banana? Or does it fall into the category of involuntary hallucination because it just popped into existence based on a thought I had no control over?

The dictionary definition seems to be:
The forming of new ideas, images or concepts about objects not present to the senses.

This definition doesn’t seem to take into account the voluntary or involuntary aspect I was talking about. So maybe I’m making it a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be… still, when I look for a clear line between imagination and reality I can’t find it.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28591643 - 12/20/23 04:52 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Reminds me of the question:
How many bats are there in these inkblots?



A: as many as can be imagined


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591708 - 12/20/23 05:26 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Nice haha 😁


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28591902 - 12/20/23 07:44 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

so many cats


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28592180 - 12/21/23 01:57 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I must confess, I notice a lot of unfamiliar - unnameable, and though I am barely aware (the goal?),  have to say at least some perceptive reflex is happening, but when I am doing really well at bare awareness, the perceptive reflex is not cascading and compounding (ramifying in all directions) - it is quickly subsumed by the next moment's breath movements. Then there is the whole change detection behavior of the brain tissue, and it is always just a little bit surprising, that no matter how well concentrated I seem to be, something comes up, and the unchanging center of attention seems to have disappeared behind this cloud. This puts a bit of a dance into the stillness.

I would not say I am not really there, but I am not other than the whole process, and that process would be happening in practice or not.




yes you are your mind the experience of your mental contents
nothing more than that


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Ferdinando] * 1
    #28592492 - 12/21/23 08:47 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

You are not mind, nor the experience of mental contents. These disappear constantly.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28592506 - 12/21/23 08:58 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Maybe Ferdinando meant that mind and mental contents, aka subjective experience, is always the totality of one’s reality. Yes they are constantly shifting, but the field of ā€œMindā€ in which they play out is the sole reality for a being who experiences.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28592525 - 12/21/23 09:11 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
You are not mind, nor the experience of mental contents. These disappear constantly.



we are constantly disappearing sir
only a warm trail of recency and memory remain.
so how are we not our mental contents.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28592536 - 12/21/23 09:16 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Because reasoning reveals they are never really there, including the content of memory. Disappearing too is not well reasoned IMO.

But if one reasons we are ____
Then it follows one can reason ____ disappears in that same instance


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #28592552 - 12/21/23 09:26 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
Maybe Ferdinando meant that mind and mental contents, aka subjective experience, is always the totality of one’s reality. Yes they are constantly shifting, but the field of ā€œMindā€ in which they play out is the sole reality for a being who experiences.




Could be :smile:


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28592693 - 12/21/23 12:31 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Because reasoning reveals they are never really there, including the content of memory. Disappearing too is not well reasoned IMO.

But if one reasons we are ____
Then it follows one can reason ____ disappears in that same instance



well, I guess the opacity of my associative model is blocking your understanding of my meaning as much as the opacity of the LLM is blocking my understanding of your meaning.

in the associative model, memory has no active contents, it only has connectivity potentials (the spines that have been deposited due to synchronous activations in the past), however, when sensations (active neurons) and perceptions (active neurons) re-activate neurons from memory, that expands the active mental contents, and the new pattern of mental contents produces (via the axon branches and previously made spines) more reflex re-activation of neurons (i.e. more perception from memory) which further contributes new mental contents (neuron activations) while the previous ones fade (usually in 3/10ths of a second).

This model is much easier to understand (to me) than LLM. And it more closely jives with what I described in my experience. It also suggests that the personality is all the potential connections (i.e. memory of all experiences) while the self and attention are the current activation of neurons in the brain, and that is extremely transient. Mostly change sets in within 1/3 of a second - except for frame stacking (i.e. stoned and emotional persisting)

Of course you could define the self not as experience (qualia in the moment) but as all potential responses or personal memory, or you could define self as both qualia and memory. However any description of self should reflect that the current mental contents is a result of reflex stimulation of neurons in the current context - part of which is mental, and another part of which is recent mental content which is more easily reactivated.

So who am I, qualia - being active mental contents (sensory & perception from memory - which fades immediately), my memories (all the potential connections), or what I have recently been doing for the last 5 minutes or so ("the warm trail of mental activities" - which is more easily perceived or recycled into active mental contents than resting memory)?

I will keep going at that page (https://bbycroft.net/llm) to zoom in, and retry the explanations and google out the meanings of anything ambiguous. and keep on replaying the animation until it begins to mean something.


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Edited by redgreenvines (12/21/23 12:38 PM)


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28592702 - 12/21/23 12:40 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I don't think your meaning was particularly opaque. But there is a fundamental difference in view about the origin, or in my case the lack of origin, of these connections you've lined out.

No matter where one starts, one cannot begin. That's what I've reasoned for myself.

I don't disagree with your reasoning either. I think it's fine. Mine makes for poor dialogue and leads no where. That's sort of the point of it tho. With no start and no stop, where could it go?

I recognize the silliness of such a stance and pretty much reserve it for nonsensical dialogues. Or dialogues which could potentially lead someone nowhere. I don't think you plan on going anywhere from your stance, for example.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28592708 - 12/21/23 12:46 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I think there are two levels to this.


The first is simply that we can never step out of our subjective experience to verify it. We can never see reality. I see colors on my screen, white, black yellow, blue. These colors don't exist out there. We could say, ok but there is light, and it has properties. That is thought. When we think those thoughts, we see thought, not reality.

The second level is simply about consistency with past memory and consistency with other's reported observations.

So, for example, every time I have come back to my apartment, everything is mostly the same. The building is there, the trees, my kitchen, the toilet, its all there and has been consistent. But say one day (I'm going to use and exagerated example for clarity but it gets more subtle) instead of my apartment, there is just a tetradactyl sitting there. The reason I would doubt my observation even if it appeared real, is because that appearance is extremely inconsistent with previous memories.

Now say other people saw it, and they were amazed too, well I might start to think maybe its real. and then say its on the news and scientists are talking about it etc, well now I'll start to really think holly crap, dinasaurs came back, and above all odds it happend at my apartment!


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
    #28592727 - 12/21/23 01:06 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I will keep on exploring and finding my way back until it stops biologically I think


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28593816 - 12/22/23 08:27 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I personally think intensity or vividness is important. An imagined image tends to be less vibrant and less visually strong.




Hallucinations brought on by schizophrenia and other disorders can be incredibly vivid and nearly impossible to discern from reality without assistance.

Hell, self induced drug hallucinations seem to fool neurotypical people who knowingly and willfully ingested the substance themselves. So the testimony of intensity or vividness isn't super useful in discerning realness as far as I'm concerned. I believe that you saw or experienced what you claim to have but that isn't enough for me to conclude that it was real.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #28593930 - 12/22/23 10:38 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Right :thumbup:

It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28593942 - 12/22/23 10:50 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

It oughta be one hella vivid imagination to feel real.

I've sat in my room after not sleeping for more than a day and briefly thought there was a figure in the doorway from the shadows in my peripheral.

Yes, for a second I though, wtf is that?! And then.. I looked.

Do you have any example in mind for what you could be referring to as something that might spur on someone to consider the reality of their percieved situation as such?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28593956 - 12/22/23 10:57 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Right :thumbup:

It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.





I don't think it has to do with vividness (i take vivid to mean has a high intensity)

Things can be extremely vivid without me having any idea what they are.

I think realness is itself a feeling. The most compelling evidence I have for this is times when the sense of self disapeared spontaneously. At those times the self was obviouisly just a thought without any sense of reality. Comparing that to when there is a sense of self, the difference is just that the thought feels real.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
    #28593958 - 12/22/23 10:59 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

also vividness is interesting, from one perspective everything shows up completely, with full intensity and there isn't any way to compare intensity.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
    #28593981 - 12/22/23 11:16 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Right :thumbup:

It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.





I don't think it has to do with vividness (i take vivid to mean has a high intensity)

Things can be extremely vivid without me having any idea what they are.

I think realness is itself a feeling. The most compelling evidence I have for this is times when the sense of self disapeared spontaneously. At those times the self was obviouisly just a thought without any sense of reality. Comparing that to when there is a sense of self, the difference is just that the thought feels real.




It's like, you can have extremely vivid hallucigenic visuals, but why does one know they aren't real? Whatever the answer, I think it can be extrapolated outside of psychedelics too.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28593998 - 12/22/23 11:43 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

most of the hallucination that I get are the out of control, chaotic reverberations of previous sensations, vision, feelings, ideas and sound, which obscure the freshest moments of sensation and perception.
There is no question about it being hallucinatory, but it is not a single hallucinated thing which is unreal, but a state of being in which what is actual is very difficult to discern amidst the layered and branched tripping artifacts.

Like amidst heavy flotsam and jetsam, so "where's the beach"?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28594000 - 12/22/23 11:44 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Do you have any example in mind for what you could be referring to as something that might spur on someone to consider the reality of their percieved situation as such?


Mirror box therapy with amputees comes to mind

Virtual reality, some people at the current brightness and detail already get quite confused

about half the posts on the shroomery illustrate some degree of belief in what has been experienced

And as the other poster mentioned, schizophrenia is very real for the individual, with no notes of dullness or lack of clarity.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28594011 - 12/22/23 11:49 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

then there is the whole been there done that Mr. Magoo syndrome where we imagine that what we previously knew has not changed, and we blindly bumble around with our eyes closed for most of the show.

you could say it is hallucinatory but it is more of a sleep walk through preconceptions.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594016 - 12/22/23 11:58 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?




Would this count as delusion? Acting on imagined or projected circumstances instead of consensus reality?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #28594194 - 12/22/23 03:12 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I waffled a bit then settled on 'no'. I thought of augmented reality, where some elements are present and some are projected. Do the projected elements negate the present ones? I settled on 'no'. And so I cannot say someone has become delusional just because of some projected elements. There's probably a tipping point in the spectrum somewhere for my judgement tho :smile:


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594224 - 12/22/23 03:42 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Definitely delusional
As everything is
All mixed together


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594247 - 12/22/23 04:09 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I waffled a bit then settled on 'no'. I thought of augmented reality, where some elements are present and some are projected. Do the projected elements negate the present ones? I settled on 'no'. And so I cannot say someone has become delusional just because of some projected elements. There's probably a tipping point in the spectrum somewhere for my judgement tho :smile:




I meant psychological projection, not literal, optical projection.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #28594265 - 12/22/23 04:22 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Yeah, I gathered as much. It was an analogy :smile:


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594273 - 12/22/23 04:30 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

And as the other poster mentioned, schizophrenia is very real for the individual, with no notes of dullness or lack of clarity




Are you trying to distinguish between the mirror box, virtual reality and schizophrenia?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594323 - 12/22/23 05:09 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

No


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594422 - 12/22/23 07:07 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Definitely delusional
As everything is
All mixed together




What, no grading on a curve?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594436 - 12/22/23 07:23 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I wouldn't risk grading it, but we do stake our lives on it working out anyway.
from the Dalai Lama to that lying political witch hunt victim. delusion all the way.

MARA in other words.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594442 - 12/22/23 07:35 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

On what working out?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594478 - 12/22/23 08:12 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

associative perceptions, and learned routines, and the sharpness of our senses.
these have to work out so as to support living our lives together and producing the next generations.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594491 - 12/22/23 08:20 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
most of the hallucination that I get are the out of control, chaotic reverberations of previous sensations, vision, feelings, ideas and sound, which obscure the freshest moments of sensation and perception.
There is no question about it being hallucinatory, but it is not a single hallucinated thing which is unreal, but a state of being in which what is actual is very difficult to discern amidst the layered and branched tripping artifacts.

Like amidst heavy flotsam and jetsam, so "where's the beach"?




Maybe I'm some kinda person with a less colourful imagination, I just don't get how outside of schizophrenia, delirium or psychedelics you couldn't distinguish reality from imagination.

With virtual reality, someone might be confused from the experience, but I think it's wrong to say they're confused between reality and imagination.

With the mirror box experiment, that's at least worth exploring to me, but also reminds me of what the brain does when looking at a negative coloured image then changing it over to a black and white one still seeing colour.

Are the colours real or is it a kind of illusion? Could ask what's changing, but not whats imaginary or real.



And it doesn't last long.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594518 - 12/22/23 08:56 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

al the colors are real, but when you ask the question about changing colors being real, I think you are really asking if they will stay the same colors for a few hours or if they will revert back right away. Like how long will it be this way, or that way, and then maybe was one more real than the other or longer lasting or something like that.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594533 - 12/22/23 09:08 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

That's the thing, if it's longer lasting, I think that means there's a serious underlying issue at hand, that or psychedelics.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594566 - 12/22/23 09:41 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

or you are seeing the colors the way they are for you to see, but if you end up disagreeing with everyone about what you are seeing, then yeah get checked out.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594579 - 12/22/23 09:54 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Colourblindness aside, if someone is struggling to see the illusion of the illusion after long enough.. time to check yourself in imo.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594600 - 12/22/23 10:14 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

You don’t have a less colourful imagination Sudly, your views are just constrained by what you think you know, as are all of ours. It’s an amazing world.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Bardy]
    #28594603 - 12/22/23 10:16 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

At least the illusion of illusions don't outlast their stay in my experience.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594605 - 12/22/23 10:29 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

How long do they intend to stay?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Bardy]
    #28594616 - 12/22/23 10:46 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Is Criss Angel really a god?


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594635 - 12/22/23 11:18 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I think this text explains how consensus reality works pretty well:

Quote:

All of our decisions about what is and is not are just decisions made in accordance
with how it appears to our mind; they have no other basis whatsoever.
Therefore, when we ask, ā€œDoes it exist or not?ā€ and the other person answers,
ā€œIt exists,ā€ in fact, we are asking, ā€œDoes this appear to your mind to exist or not
exist?ā€ and the answer is simply, ā€œIt appears to my mind to exist.ā€ In the same
way, everything that one asks about—better or worse, good or bad, beautiful
or ugly—is in fact merely asked about for the sake of understanding how the
other person thinks. That the other person makes a decision and answers is in
fact just a decision made in accordance with how it appears to his or her own
mind; there is no other reason whatsoever. Therefore, as long as the ideas of
two people are in disagreement with each other, they will argue. When they
agree, the very thing that they agree upon will be placed in the class of what is,
what exists, what can be known, and what is valid, and so on. Thus, the more
people there are who agree, the more the point they agree upon becomes of
great significance and importance. Contrary views are taken to be wrong views,
mistaken perceptions, and so on.

...

Therefore, all of our decisions about what exists and does not exist, what is and is not
(276), are merely decisions in accordance with how it appears to our respective
minds.When many hundreds of thousands of common beings to whose minds
[things] appear similarly gather together, then the thing that they decide upon
becomes firmly grounded and unchangeable, and those who speak in disagreement
are proclaimed to be denigrators, nihilists, and so on.

Therefore, our statements about what does and does not exist are in fact
classifications of what appears before our mind. Our statements that something
does not exist or is impossible are classifications of what cannot appear before
our mind.





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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
    #28594637 - 12/22/23 11:31 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Absolutely brilliant


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594671 - 12/23/23 01:16 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I wouldn't risk grading it, but we do stake our lives on it working out anyway.
from the Dalai Lama to that lying political witch hunt victim. delusion all the way.

MARA in other words.




ok cool
yeah but dalai lama is good to read


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
    #28594681 - 12/23/23 02:01 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

To address the nuances of how collective perceptions, contrary views, and the threshold of reality interact, and to clarify the distinction between imagination and reality in various contexts, you might respond with the following:

While it's true that collective perceptions do not automatically equate to objective truth, and contrary views are often dismissed or regarded as incorrect, this doesn't inherently validate the accuracy of either standpoint. The concept of a "threshold of reality" is useful here. It refers to the point at which an individual or group's perception aligns closely enough with objective or consensus reality that it is generally accepted as true. However, this threshold is not absolute and can vary based on context and interpretation.

In cases where someone is momentarily confused by an experience, such as virtual reality or a visual illusion, it doesn't necessarily mean they lose their ability to distinguish between imagination and reality. Typically, individuals can recognise these experiences for what they are—illusions or simulations—especially once they step out of the immediate context of the experience. This ability to discern is an important aspect of our cognitive processes.

However, in situations involving medical episodes, schizophrenia, or other conditions that affect perception and cognition, this threshold can be disrupted, making it more challenging for individuals to distinguish between their perceptions and what is commonly accepted as reality. It's crucial to understand that these are exceptional cases and not indicative of the general human experience.

Visual illusions, such as optical illusions, provide an interesting case study. While they can momentarily trick our senses, most people can recognise them as illusions. This recognition demonstrates our ability to understand and categorise experiences, distinguishing between what is 'real' and what is a trick of perception.

In summary, the threshold of reality is a fluid concept influenced by collective perceptions, individual experiences, and contextual factors. While collective perceptions and contrary views each have their own validity, neither automatically denotes an objective truth. Understanding this helps us appreciate the complexity of discerning reality, particularly in contexts where perception is altered or challenged.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Ferdinando]
    #28594704 - 12/23/23 03:05 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I wouldn't risk grading it, but we do stake our lives on it working out anyway.
from the Dalai Lama to that lying political witch hunt victim. delusion all the way.

MARA in other words.




ok cool
yeah but dalai lama is good to read



yes and he cares about "funny", "joy", "humanity"


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
    #28594707 - 12/23/23 03:12 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:...
In summary, the threshold of reality is a fluid concept influenced by collective perceptions, individual experiences, and contextual factors. While collective perceptions and contrary views each have their own validity, neither automatically denotes an objective truth. Understanding this helps us appreciate the complexity of discerning reality, particularly in contexts where perception is altered or challenged.



I understand that, but it is not something that comes to mind while I struggle to distinguish the real from the imaginary.
At those times, usually, I can recognize I'm in a dream, or that I'm in a frame stack, and I have to stop moving, and begin reconnecting, body scan, breath following, and when the state of mind levels out, try again.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28594789 - 12/23/23 05:44 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I wouldn't risk grading it, but we do stake our lives on it working out anyway.
from the Dalai Lama to that lying political witch hunt victim. delusion all the way.

MARA in other words.



The mother of Samsara.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28594944 - 12/23/23 07:40 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
associative perceptions, and learned routines, and the sharpness of our senses.
these have to work out so as to support living our lives together and producing the next generations.




Relatively important relationships with relatives that relate to well being and suffering. Relating to such is relative to relationships. Which has its own relations. And those too, have relations. And so forth.

Anything can be related to delusion. This suggests anything can cease to be related as well. Relationships are relatively important.


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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28594989 - 12/23/23 08:04 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Ok I'm starting to get the sense this thread wasn't created in good faith.


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:mushroomgrow:It's like we weren't made for this world But I really wouldn't wanna meet someone Who was:mushroomgrow:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #28595068 - 12/23/23 09:15 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

We see what we see :smile:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OnlineFreedom
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28595093 - 12/23/23 09:44 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
We see what we see :smile:







and things are inherently different from different perspectives :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28595102 - 12/23/23 09:49 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
associative perceptions, and learned routines, and the sharpness of our senses.
these have to work out so as to support living our lives together and producing the next generations.




Relatively important relationships with relatives that relate to well being and suffering. Relating to such is relative to relationships. Which has its own relations. And those too, have relations. And so forth.

Anything can be related to delusion. This suggests anything can cease to be related as well. Relationships are relatively important.



I am not using word play.
association is how we find our way as moving creatures - it is the recognition of something familiar.
while family relations and generations is how life persists:

what we perceive is the associative reflex of mind in the current context
and it either helps point the way &/or move us along, or it does not.
that is reality 10 times per second.

it is different for each moving creature.
an equivalence threshold between your reality and my reality is screen based, and screen glare informed, with fingers wiggling on a laptop at my end, along with guesses about your end, and no direct family ties for the last millenium perhaps.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28595108 - 12/23/23 09:54 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Homo sapiens sapiens
Relative to scale, thanks Freedom for the visual


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28595139 - 12/23/23 11:00 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

it's been a splash!


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28595140 - 12/23/23 11:01 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I heard that dip :peace:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKevinDontWave
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28595159 - 12/23/23 11:25 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
We see what we see :smile:



:knowwhatnevermind:


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:awesome2::awebigvaped:

:mushroomgrow:It's like we weren't made for this world But I really wouldn't wanna meet someone Who was:mushroomgrow:


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #28595878 - 12/23/23 10:42 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Thermodynamics follows a dynamic curve.

Straight lines.

String tensors.

Resting and moving strings.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28595966 - 12/24/23 01:32 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Those are all words. Physics concepts to be precise… how are you relating that to the threshold at which you think something can be considered real?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Bardy]
    #28598120 - 12/25/23 11:17 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Things rise and fall in the mind..

A peak experience wave.

Continuum.

Impermanence!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28598283 - 12/26/23 05:45 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

I had too many people surrounding to fool with my reality threshold, maybe that will shift today.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28598742 - 12/26/23 03:56 PM (1 month, 1 day ago)

Bon voyage šŸ‘‹šŸ¼


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