|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 35 minutes, 41 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28591708 - 12/20/23 05:26 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Nice haha 😁
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28591902 - 12/20/23 07:44 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
so many cats
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I must confess, I notice a lot of unfamiliar - unnameable, and though I am barely aware (the goal?), have to say at least some perceptive reflex is happening, but when I am doing really well at bare awareness, the perceptive reflex is not cascading and compounding (ramifying in all directions) - it is quickly subsumed by the next moment's breath movements. Then there is the whole change detection behavior of the brain tissue, and it is always just a little bit surprising, that no matter how well concentrated I seem to be, something comes up, and the unchanging center of attention seems to have disappeared behind this cloud. This puts a bit of a dance into the stillness.
I would not say I am not really there, but I am not other than the whole process, and that process would be happening in practice or not.
yes you are your mind the experience of your mental contents nothing more than that
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
|
You are not mind, nor the experience of mental contents. These disappear constantly.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Blue Cthulhu
Undefined


Registered: 05/27/19
Posts: 495
Loc: With the loons
Last seen: 27 minutes, 54 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] 1
#28592506 - 12/21/23 08:58 AM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Maybe Ferdinando meant that mind and mental contents, aka subjective experience, is always the totality of one’s reality. Yes they are constantly shifting, but the field of “Mind” in which they play out is the sole reality for a being who experiences.
-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28592525 - 12/21/23 09:11 AM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: You are not mind, nor the experience of mental contents. These disappear constantly.
we are constantly disappearing sir only a warm trail of recency and memory remain. so how are we not our mental contents.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
|
Because reasoning reveals they are never really there, including the content of memory. Disappearing too is not well reasoned IMO.
But if one reasons we are ____ Then it follows one can reason ____ disappears in that same instance
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Blue Cthulhu said: Maybe Ferdinando meant that mind and mental contents, aka subjective experience, is always the totality of one’s reality. Yes they are constantly shifting, but the field of “Mind” in which they play out is the sole reality for a being who experiences.
Could be
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] 1
#28592693 - 12/21/23 12:31 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: Because reasoning reveals they are never really there, including the content of memory. Disappearing too is not well reasoned IMO.
But if one reasons we are ____ Then it follows one can reason ____ disappears in that same instance
well, I guess the opacity of my associative model is blocking your understanding of my meaning as much as the opacity of the LLM is blocking my understanding of your meaning.
in the associative model, memory has no active contents, it only has connectivity potentials (the spines that have been deposited due to synchronous activations in the past), however, when sensations (active neurons) and perceptions (active neurons) re-activate neurons from memory, that expands the active mental contents, and the new pattern of mental contents produces (via the axon branches and previously made spines) more reflex re-activation of neurons (i.e. more perception from memory) which further contributes new mental contents (neuron activations) while the previous ones fade (usually in 3/10ths of a second).
This model is much easier to understand (to me) than LLM. And it more closely jives with what I described in my experience. It also suggests that the personality is all the potential connections (i.e. memory of all experiences) while the self and attention are the current activation of neurons in the brain, and that is extremely transient. Mostly change sets in within 1/3 of a second - except for frame stacking (i.e. stoned and emotional persisting)
Of course you could define the self not as experience (qualia in the moment) but as all potential responses or personal memory, or you could define self as both qualia and memory. However any description of self should reflect that the current mental contents is a result of reflex stimulation of neurons in the current context - part of which is mental, and another part of which is recent mental content which is more easily reactivated.
So who am I, qualia - being active mental contents (sensory & perception from memory - which fades immediately), my memories (all the potential connections), or what I have recently been doing for the last 5 minutes or so ("the warm trail of mental activities" - which is more easily perceived or recycled into active mental contents than resting memory)?
I will keep going at that page (https://bbycroft.net/llm) to zoom in, and retry the explanations and google out the meanings of anything ambiguous. and keep on replaying the animation until it begins to mean something.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
Edited by redgreenvines (12/21/23 12:38 PM)
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
|
I don't think your meaning was particularly opaque. But there is a fundamental difference in view about the origin, or in my case the lack of origin, of these connections you've lined out.
No matter where one starts, one cannot begin. That's what I've reasoned for myself.
I don't disagree with your reasoning either. I think it's fine. Mine makes for poor dialogue and leads no where. That's sort of the point of it tho. With no start and no stop, where could it go?
I recognize the silliness of such a stance and pretty much reserve it for nonsensical dialogues. Or dialogues which could potentially lead someone nowhere. I don't think you plan on going anywhere from your stance, for example.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 25 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28592708 - 12/21/23 12:46 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I think there are two levels to this.
The first is simply that we can never step out of our subjective experience to verify it. We can never see reality. I see colors on my screen, white, black yellow, blue. These colors don't exist out there. We could say, ok but there is light, and it has properties. That is thought. When we think those thoughts, we see thought, not reality.
The second level is simply about consistency with past memory and consistency with other's reported observations.
So, for example, every time I have come back to my apartment, everything is mostly the same. The building is there, the trees, my kitchen, the toilet, its all there and has been consistent. But say one day (I'm going to use and exagerated example for clarity but it gets more subtle) instead of my apartment, there is just a tetradactyl sitting there. The reason I would doubt my observation even if it appeared real, is because that appearance is extremely inconsistent with previous memories.
Now say other people saw it, and they were amazed too, well I might start to think maybe its real. and then say its on the news and scientists are talking about it etc, well now I'll start to really think holly crap, dinasaurs came back, and above all odds it happend at my apartment!
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
#28592727 - 12/21/23 01:06 PM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I will keep on exploring and finding my way back until it stops biologically I think
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
KevinDontWave
Kiwi Cat



Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 1,489
Loc: The Desert of the Mind
Last seen: 34 minutes, 5 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28593816 - 12/22/23 08:27 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: I personally think intensity or vividness is important. An imagined image tends to be less vibrant and less visually strong.
Hallucinations brought on by schizophrenia and other disorders can be incredibly vivid and nearly impossible to discern from reality without assistance.
Hell, self induced drug hallucinations seem to fool neurotypical people who knowingly and willfully ingested the substance themselves. So the testimony of intensity or vividness isn't super useful in discerning realness as far as I'm concerned. I believe that you saw or experienced what you claim to have but that isn't enough for me to conclude that it was real.
--------------------
    It's like we weren't made for this world But I really wouldn't wanna meet someone Who was
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
|
Right 
It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
#28593942 - 12/22/23 10:50 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
It oughta be one hella vivid imagination to feel real.
I've sat in my room after not sleeping for more than a day and briefly thought there was a figure in the doorway from the shadows in my peripheral.
Yes, for a second I though, wtf is that?! And then.. I looked.
Do you have any example in mind for what you could be referring to as something that might spur on someone to consider the reality of their percieved situation as such?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 25 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] 1
#28593956 - 12/22/23 10:57 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: Right 
It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.
I don't think it has to do with vividness (i take vivid to mean has a high intensity)
Things can be extremely vivid without me having any idea what they are.
I think realness is itself a feeling. The most compelling evidence I have for this is times when the sense of self disapeared spontaneously. At those times the self was obviouisly just a thought without any sense of reality. Comparing that to when there is a sense of self, the difference is just that the thought feels real.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 minutes, 25 seconds
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
#28593958 - 12/22/23 10:59 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
also vividness is interesting, from one perspective everything shows up completely, with full intensity and there isn't any way to compare intensity.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: Freedom]
#28593981 - 12/22/23 11:16 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Kickle said: Right 
It feels real because of the vividness. Someone not experiencing such doesn't have to buy it.
I don't think it has to do with vividness (i take vivid to mean has a high intensity)
Things can be extremely vivid without me having any idea what they are.
I think realness is itself a feeling. The most compelling evidence I have for this is times when the sense of self disapeared spontaneously. At those times the self was obviouisly just a thought without any sense of reality. Comparing that to when there is a sense of self, the difference is just that the thought feels real.
It's like, you can have extremely vivid hallucigenic visuals, but why does one know they aren't real? Whatever the answer, I think it can be extrapolated outside of psychedelics too.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly]
#28593998 - 12/22/23 11:43 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
most of the hallucination that I get are the out of control, chaotic reverberations of previous sensations, vision, feelings, ideas and sound, which obscure the freshest moments of sensation and perception. There is no question about it being hallucinatory, but it is not a single hallucinated thing which is unreal, but a state of being in which what is actual is very difficult to discern amidst the layered and branched tripping artifacts.
Like amidst heavy flotsam and jetsam, so "where's the beach"?
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 31 minutes
|
Re: Reality threshold [Re: sudly] 1
#28594000 - 12/22/23 11:44 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Do you have any example in mind for what you could be referring to as something that might spur on someone to consider the reality of their percieved situation as such?
Mirror box therapy with amputees comes to mind
Virtual reality, some people at the current brightness and detail already get quite confused
about half the posts on the shroomery illustrate some degree of belief in what has been experienced
And as the other poster mentioned, schizophrenia is very real for the individual, with no notes of dullness or lack of clarity.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
|