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OfflineKickleM
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Reality threshold * 1
    #28590304 - 12/19/23 06:47 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28590316 - 12/19/23 06:54 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

For the lucid dreamers out there, a way to test whether you are in physical reality or a dream is to: look at a clock. If the time fluctuates, wobbles, is unsteady then that is a sure sign you are in a dream.

To generalize, one could say that physical reality is more stable than other planes of reality. A physical banana will hang around longer than an imagined one. However, even the physical banana WILL eventually degenerate/transform.


--------------------
"Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." :aliendance:
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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #28590334 - 12/19/23 07:11 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Ok, temporal stability...

Does this mean one should question whether quick glances capture anything real?

As a test I quickly glanced into the kitchen where I remember a bunch of bananas. I saw them and quickly looked away. Did I see real bananas or is it possible I only imagined seeing them but do not second guess it because of memory?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590361 - 12/19/23 07:24 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

there are no real bananas in the apartment.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28590372 - 12/19/23 07:29 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

The Dalai Lama was quite fascinated by projectors as a youngster


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590382 - 12/19/23 07:37 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I got a magnajector when I was 12
golden book encyclopedia on the walls every nite.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28590421 - 12/19/23 07:54 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I'm curious if anyone else has any insights for how to distinguish. I thought temporal stability was a good one :thumbup:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590704 - 12/20/23 12:15 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Awesome question.

I feel like there are two distinct types of “real” in my mind.

There’s the scientific type of real that can only be backed up by one or more observations from other people. Like if I see a tree in the distance and I ask you if what I’m seeing is actually a tree, then we ask a couple more people to make sure we’re not ascribing the word “tree” to a large animal standing still or something.

Then there’s the sense in which all of experience is real. Even if we disagree about something subjective. That subjective experience, although it differs between us, is still real for both of us.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590723 - 12/20/23 01:07 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Dream actualization
The suggestion about the clock is one of the best ones. We don’t always have access to o’clock in our dreams though.
Try to open a book. All of them will be blank.
Try to count the fingers on your hand. That is impossible to do in a dream.
Those are two of my favorites.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (12/20/23 01:20 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590728 - 12/20/23 01:15 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?




Unless you're experiencing serotonin syndrome and going through hyperactive mental delirium, the distinction between stereognosis and vision is clear. If you can't distinguish between the two, you may be having a serious medical episode.

Even when tripping on shrooms, how could you not know the difference between the visuals and reality? With acid, surfaces may move, or the sky could look like a koleidiscope, but why would you think that's now the reality of the brick wall, or the reality of the sky for all?

It just seems irresponsibility, or the perception of a seperated entity experiencing what you are that could lead to such irrational conclusions.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28590736 - 12/20/23 01:20 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I err on the side of assuming everything is imagined until proven true. The brain is ridiculously biased, it hallucinates, it misses stuff. I assume it's all in my head until proven otherwise. When in doubt I assume my perception is wrong. I keep an open mind specifically when it comes to doubting my own perceptions. I'm persuaded by serious sciencey stuff.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: nooneman]
    #28590743 - 12/20/23 01:47 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

what a terrifying place to live imo. Our recollection of things can be pretty spacey, but if someone don't know what's real and what's not in the moment, they need to be wearing grippy socks.

I can doubt my recollection of events, but not whether something is real or imagined when it's in the moment. Maybe you could misinterpret a deer for a bear in the distance, but that's when we don't have enough visual information to make the connection, that or enough experience to quickly identify species.

One could argue we experience a kind of controlled hallucination in a sense, but that's not to say we're having any kind of colloquial hallucination.

If you're looking at a distant object and you don't know whether it's a bird or a balloon, you aren't imagining the distant object, you're only unsure of what form it comes in.

There's a clear distinction between imagining something that isn't there and mislabelling something that is.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590753 - 12/20/23 02:00 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
how do you distinguish whether something is real or imagined? If you had to define a point, or threshold at which you are able to differentiate, what would you use?

Take imagining seeing a banana vs seeing a real banana. What enables you to know it is an imagined vs real vision?



Its all about texture..

How something looks usually gives away its touch sense data..

The brain body machine is always measuring things using cues that have already been established.

Plus there is the sense of the current sense data in the moment.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: nooneman]
    #28590811 - 12/20/23 04:48 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...

If you're looking at a distant object and you don't know whether it's a bird or a balloon, you aren't imagining the distant object, you're only unsure of what form it comes in.

There's a clear distinction between imagining something that isn't there and mislabelling something that is.



Quote:

nooneman said:
I err on the side of assuming everything is imagined until proven true. The brain is ridiculously biased, it hallucinates, it misses stuff. I assume it's all in my head until proven otherwise. When in doubt I assume my perception is wrong. I keep an open mind specifically when it comes to doubting my own perceptions...




these are close to what I normally take to be real except I also spend a lot of time exploring my high speed change awareness by slowing down and immersing in sensory/mental flux which could not be labeled in the timeframe. Unfamiliar junk & chaotic forms which are real experience, but not meaningfully real or necessarily significant appears  and disappears in this range. It's a bit like what an octopus might feel like.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmVxJk6Hz9K/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeZjnQLhMAK/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl4aMZ-HQHZ/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4xgGahlJ75/


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590875 - 12/20/23 06:31 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I've never experienced not knowing if something is real
Intrigued with this thread


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: loladoreen] * 1
    #28590897 - 12/20/23 06:46 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

INB4 Kickle is straight up using our posts to train an AI with plans toward making the threshold between reality and unreality indescernable, but I suppose it's fine or whatever.
I guess no one watched "Beyond the Aquila rift."
:shrug:


"Geographical and temporal perimeters: Functional parameters vary from manifestation to manifestation."

First off,
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Dream actualization
The suggestion about the clock is one of the best ones. We don’t always have  access to o’clock in our dreams though.



:lol: that cracked me up bro.
But...
Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
If the time fluctuates, wobbles, is unsteady then that is a sure sign you are in a dream.



and
Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
Try to open a book. All of them will be blank.
Try to count the fingers on your hand. That is impossible to do in a dream.
Those are two of my favorites.




I'm not trying to nitpick or play contrarian, but this type of information around ironclad rules of lucid dreaming always make me roll my eyes a bit.
:rolleyes:
The idea of a test that will let you discern between waking and dreaming is helpful (and something you develop a feel for from plenty lucid dream/ hyponogogic experiences), but just like our interpretations on the effects from tripping I think there are very few hard & fast rules about the resulting phenomenon like 'clocks are always unstable''not being able to read text' or 'having too many fingers' stuff like that.
:twocents:
Although I distinctly remember one lucid dream, where while filling a Vespa with fuel, the display on the pump was displaying stuff like the weight of the scooter, its dimensions, colour, pictures of it from various angles. I don't recall the font being in English, in fact at a push I'd say it was in symbols, but I was quite able to read and make sense of the texts context in the dreamspace.
Sadly, the fact the fuel volume was the only metric not tracked caused the scooter to swell up like a balloon though and I had to seek help from the attendant. :facepalm:


Back on track...
So we got:
Temporal stability✔
Confirmation from multiple sources✔
as tools toward finding the threshold.
Brendans comment on texture made me think too.
We can maybe use texture defined as "the feel, appearance, or consistency of a surface or substance." to give further clues that could be useful to test for somethings reality/ dimensional stickiness, the idea of consistency being one (consistency referring both to touch data and a consistent way of being that conforms to certain peramaters)

I leave my banana on the desk while I go to get a plate, knife and fork for it. When back, the banana is on the chair.
Hmm.
Not very consistent, in a locational/spacial sense.
But maybe it fell, or my memory putting it on the desk is mistaken- I definitely PUT IT but maybe the details got lost and I actually put it on the chair.
Probably best, before considering the cause of movement, to define the object, because MY object, the banana, hasn't shown me a tendency toward locomotion in the past.
So I touch the peel- and since my 'brain body machine' has been running the background metrics for me ever since the idea of banana- I have a reasonable expectation of touch data that the banana should conform to (based on its condition in relation to the other bananas of my life.)
A bit waxy, mostly firm but yielding, smooth with the odd pitt perhaps, rougher and woody on the end.
But wait, this banana is a pale blue, feels like velvet and is at least 8c° less than room temp!
Plus it's not even on the chair now, it's just rotating slowly in open space...
Sighing wearily, I go wash my hands in case it's them that is the cause of anomalous match up between expectations and perception, but alas the results are the same after my scrub.
Let's get to the bottom of it, cautiously leaning my face in toward the whirling artifact, I take a big nose toke of the surrounding air.
The expectation is a sweet, 'greenness' of the peel, maybe a chemical sort of booziness to it, but no, the artifact emits a scent of burnt garlic and shoe polish.
Furthermore, the 'banana' is also making a sound that's a sort of blend of between an amateur-made dubstep bass, CAT scan machine and a numbers radio station.
So far so bad, I begin to consider this is no banana at all and lose my appetite.
I put my plate, knife and fork in the bin and would you believe that when I return, there on my desk in all of its yellow resplendence is my object. The banana!
It's roughly 5.4" from end to end and its slightly obtuse curved form is entirely stationary in relation to my placing of it. It smells how I expect, its feel corresponds to my database and it makes barely any discernable sound whatsoever.
This information puts me at ease and I perform the final test of the items reality. Bearing in mind I've disposed of my crockery so I peel the artifact like an absolute simian and bite into the fruit.

Gross, it's banana.


TLDR: to define something as real, a (hopefully as balanced as possible) toolkit of sensory input, measured experienceal expectation (giving a model of temporal and spacial consistency), probability, problem solving and context all serve as useful barometers to gauge our reality threshold with.
However, and some may argue equally or more powerful in this field, are our mental contents, world view, upbringing etc etc etc which in reaction could (and DO) all contribute to a MISINTERPRETATION or distortion of reality - ala Sudlys comment on misidentifying animals, for example, as opposed to outright imagining- the idea being that rather than built to convey TRUTH about our surroundings, out sensory experience is available to present a version of reality that promotes our survival over that of objective realness.

Personally, I seem to use the above mentioned 'toolkit' combined with following my intuition. I get stuff wrong a lot but I feel like its an honest & reliable way to put me in the centre of my own learning experience as to what is or is not "real".
Saying that, I tend to consider how useful in my day to day, how harmful to myself or others and any number of factors that seem more important to me than somethings irrefutable realness. Detrimental? Probably. Useable? Absolutely.
:deepman:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: loladoreen]
    #28590909 - 12/20/23 06:56 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

So to summarize new entries:

Consensus
Details that match prior experience (object consistency?)
Science (controlled replicability)
Spacial consistency
Consistency acrosses additional sensory modalities

It seems consistency is important for determining realness?

I personally think intensity or vividness is important. An imagined image tends to be less vibrant and less visually strong. I also think when someone says of a dream "it felt more real than real' it is a reference to intensity or vividness.

But generally speaking we don't mistake one for the other due to distinct differences in vividness.

I've given some thought to sudly's posts and might summarize the view as judgement. We make judgement calls on things and trust our judgement. Judgement being perhaps a combination of many of the elements described thus far.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop]
    #28590919 - 12/20/23 07:02 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Sadly, the fact the fuel volume was the only metric not tracked caused the scooter to swell up like a balloon though and I had to seek help from the attendant. :facepalm: 

:lmao:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Kickle]
    #28590935 - 12/20/23 07:19 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Does anyone think that errors, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. can fall into the category of mistaking imagination for reality?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: Reality threshold [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28590942 - 12/20/23 07:22 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Lithop said:
INB4 Kickle is straight up using our posts to train an AI with plans toward making the threshold between reality and unreality indescernable, but I suppose it's fine or whatever.




:shocked2:  I thought Kickle was training us!?


--------------------
"Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." :aliendance:
A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing
(With all the accoutrements.)


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