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Anonymous

all governments must initiate force
    #2858829 - 07/05/04 03:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i don't think there is any way around it. there is no way for a state to maintain its (necessary) legal monopoly on the use of force in non-emergency situations without initiating force.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: ]
    #2858854 - 07/05/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The most forceful lesson I learned in Poli sci 101 was that ALL governments rule at the end of a gun. There is always an implicit, if not overtly expressed, understanding that the populace will be compelled, at gunpoint if necessary, to adhere to the dictates of the government. I know of no exceptions.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2859551 - 07/05/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Correct. All politicians rule from the end of the gun. Our only hope is that they use those guns wisely.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: silversoul7]
    #2859580 - 07/05/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It also helps if the citizens have guns pointing back at the politicians.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: z@z.com]
    #2859601 - 07/05/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

^^^true


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: ]
    #2860892 - 07/06/04 09:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i don't mean only to state that "all governments rule at the end of a gun". that goes without saying. what i mean to say is that governmental use of force cannot, even in theory, be 100% restricted to defensive action.

take arrests and searches for example. it is not possible to determine guilt before a search or arrest. people who have not been convicted of any crime, and many who never will, are searched or arrested. we restrict arbitrary searches and arrests as much as possible by requiring warrants, but even then there is an initiation of force involved. yet these are powers without which government cannot function and just about everyone, even libertarians, supports them.

another area is government funding. we could perhaps do away with taxes. the government could obtain funding via voluntary payments on something like contract insurance. people would pay a small commission on contracts (such as credit card transactions) so that the government would recognize and enforce the contract. the problem is that the government has a necessary monopoly in this regard. there are not, and cannot be, competing enforcement agencies. any government must have a monopoly on non-emergency use of force. otherwise it is not a government at all. enforcing this monopoly requires the initiation of force.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: ]
    #2862327 - 07/06/04 07:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i don't mean only to state that "all governments rule at the end of a gun". that goes without saying. what i mean to say is that governmental use of force cannot, even in theory, be 100% restricted to defensive action.

take arrests and searches for example. it is not possible to determine guilt before a search or arrest. people who have not been convicted of any crime, and many who never will, are searched or arrested. we restrict arbitrary searches and arrests as much as possible by requiring warrants, but even then there is an initiation of force involved. yet these are powers without which government cannot function and just about everyone, even libertarians, supports them.

another area is government funding. we could perhaps do away with taxes. the government could obtain funding via voluntary payments on something like contract insurance. people would pay a small commission on contracts (such as credit card transactions) so that the government would recognize and enforce the contract. the problem is that the government has a necessary monopoly in this regard. there are not, and cannot be, competing enforcement agencies. any government must have a monopoly on non-emergency use of force. otherwise it is not a government at all. enforcing this monopoly requires the initiation of force.




when there is only private property, i am forced to work for govt money which holds no real value other than the fact the govt owns all the land(u may think u own ur house but u are a renter, u pay taxes.)
so im constantly threatend with a force that may reposess my land, the land that i was born on.
the govt controlls the people by controlling the money that it forces people to use.
constitutional?


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Loc: NY
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
Re: all governments must initiate force [Re: ]
    #2863831 - 07/07/04 05:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the man has and will always slowly condition you into accepting everything he wants untill you rise up and bite the hand that inslaves you. but thats just my veiw


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[url=http://kratom.tcotu.net Low Priced, High Quality Kratom[/url]


Edited by AhronZombi (07/07/04 05:47 AM)


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